Yahweh Says to Adoni
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I don’t like playing that game but I’ll make a one-time exception for you.
I’m not wrong. You’re wrong.
What did the exercise accomplish?
I didn’t learn anything new. Did you? I don’t think so.
I haven’t changed my mind. Have you? I don’t think so.
Where do we go from here?
Except that I'm not wrong but you are wrong on this.
You wanna go again?
I can keep going until you get tired out.
The reality is that Jesus is God in the flesh.
No if's, and's, or but's.
It really is the bottom line.
Do whatever you think best.
When I see and hear Jesus, I see and hear God in the flesh.
The bottom line is having the mind of Christ.
I’ve stated publicly that I’m always willing to reevaluate and reconsider what I believe.
“No, I’m right you’re wrong” contributes nothing toward that end.
If you can do better than that, I’m listening.
There is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5)...even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).
Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3).
And, Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).
Can you say that Jesus is the Lord in light of the following scriptures?
Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Luk 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
2Co 6:17, Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Mal 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
If not, then you do not have the Holy Ghost:
1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
and therefore do not belong to Christ.
Rom 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
No. Psalm 110:1 is a bedrock verse for me.
The unnamed “lord” in the prophetic oracle is adoni, not adonai. If you’re familiar with Hebrew then you know that a vowel point makes a huge difference. Even if you’re not familiar with Hebrew, you can see the difference in English translations where it is properly rendered.
Yahweh isn’t speaking to “my Yahweh”. Yahweh is speaking to someone who isn’t Yahweh.
While it could apply to any number of human persons, which trinitarian commentaries helpfully point out, it’s ultimate fulfillment is in the Messiah.
The unnamed “lord” in Psalm 110:1 is identified by name for us in the New Testament - Jesus of Nazareth.
I’ve mentioned elsewhere that the NASB is my “workhorse” Bible. It renders the Hebrew word used in Psalm 110:1 incorrectly. I wrote to the publisher of NASB about it and they responded in writing acknowledging the error and promising to correct it in future editions.
I’ve also mentioned elsewhere that for private reading I use the NABRE, a Roman Catholic translation. The NABRE renders the Hebrew word used in Psalm 110:1 correctly.
NASB, like all other English translations, has 195 opportunities to get it right. NASB got it right 194 times out of 195 opportunities.
It should be clear that YHWH is the "Lord" (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18) and that He is speaking to Himself as He is incarnated in Psalms 110:1.
YHWH said to my Lord...
There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5)...that is, YHWH (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).
So, it does bear out that YHWH said to my YHWH when you consider that there is one Lord; even YHWH.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Proof that Jesus is not the unchanging God of the Bible is that he died. And later he was raised from death by God.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
We are talking about who God is and who God is not. The name of god is YHWH. His chosen, anointed servant is named Jesus.
There are dozens of lords in the Bible, which means there is not one ‘lord.’ Each is master of their domain and it can be confusing who lords in a city with a mayor, state with a governor, nation with a prime minister and the UN with a Secretary General.
Just because it can be confusing does not mean it cannot be made clear. Jesus is not God and we know this because he is not called God but the Son of God. While YHWH is the one God, our Father, referenced in 1 Cor 8:6, the lord referenced in that same verse is not the Father but the Son.
Hopes this helps.
The Spirit that dwelt in Jesus Christ simply left His body; and that is how He died.
The Spirit did not become sin.
It was the human Jesus who became sin for us; and the human Jesus was in fact God in flesh. The fact that He was in human form is what allowed for Him to change, in His humanity He became sin for us and in the hypostatic union God became sin for us in that the Spirit was joined to the flesh when Jesus died.
Jesus, being the Son that was given, shall have the name of "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).
There is one Lord (capital "L") Jesus Christ.
And I don't think you are prepared to say that in Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18, that the Father is "a lord" putting Him on a lower level than Jesus Christ even.
The Father is "the Lord of heaven and earth" (capital "L")...Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18.
The Lord referenced in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is indeed the Father.
For there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); and the Father is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).
And therefore, the God referenced in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is indeed the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9).
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The first thing I noticed was that you capitalized the “L” when you wrote, “YHWH said to my Lord”. That’s the error that NASB acknowledged and agreed to correct. “Lord” is the standard English rendering of the Hebrew word adonai. The Hebrew word in Psalm 110:1 isn’t adonai. Anyone who can read vowelled Hebrew knows that. The standard English rendering of the Hebrew word adoni, the word which is actually used in 110:1, is small “l,” “lord”. You can verify it for yourself. I have a post in this thread which identifies all 195 occurrences of the Hebrew word adoni.
Your argument doesn’t move me because it violates the standard English translation convention and, in doing so, misrepresents what is actually written in the Hebrew text.
An example I’ve used in the classroom is to write two English words on the blackboard. The first word is “moose” and the second word is “mouse”. The difference is in a single vowel difference. Everyone who can read English can see this and knows the difference between the two. If I write in Hebrew “There’s a mouse in the house. Get it out!” and you translate it back into English as “There’s a moose in the house. Get it out!” then you’ve misrepresented the word that was written and given your readers an incorrect understanding of the message that was being delivered by me.
The next thing that I noticed is your assertion that YHWH is speaking to himself. Some trinitarians believe the Trinity (YHWH) is 1 self. Other trinitarians believe the Trinity is 3 selfs. Rarely do I come across trinitarians who say they don’t know how many selfs the Trinity is. Of late, there has been a reluctance of trinitarians on these forums to say how many selfs they believe the Trinity is. How many selfs do you believe the Trinity is?
The third item that sprang from your post is your assertion that “He is incarnated in the Psalm”. What does that mean? Trinitarianism teaches us that the second person of the Trinity is a one-time event, which occurred in the 1st century, and is revealed to us for the first time in the prologue of John’s Gospel. It sounds to me like your either saying that it wasn’t the one-time event trinitarianism says it is. Did David reveal it, which trinitarianism doesn’t suggest, or did John?
Trinitarian pop quiz. Where do we find the incarnation in the Bible? Trinitarian answer, John 1. Trinitarian student credited for correct answer.
The fourth item caused me to ask an obvious question: why David didn’t just go ahead and actually write “YHWH says to my YHWH”? It’s well within his writing skill to do so if that’s what he had in mind.
The fifth and final thing that came to mind is another question: why did David refer to the speaker in the Psalm by using his personal / proper name (“YHWH”) without calling him “my YHWH” and to the person spoken to in the Psalm without using his or any personal / proper name, but instead using a title - and a non-deity title at that - if he was actually saying “my YHWH”? That’s complicated, but it’s what you presented me with.
Let me simplify it by ignoring the technical language details.
The speaker (YHWH) isn’t David’s “my YHWH” but the one whom YHWH spoke to is, you say, David’s “my YHWH”. Why aren’t both the speaker and the one spoken to David’s “my YHWH”?
“My YHWH says to my YHWH …” bears no resemblance whatsoever to what is written by David in the text.
Let me make sure I’m understanding you correctly. You’re saying that you believe the Trinity is 1 self and 3 selfs?
It may even be "lord" in Psalms 110:1; however, Jesus is the "Lord" in 1 Corinthians 8:6; even the one Lord of holy scripture.
And I have shown how the Father is the "Lord of heaven and earth" in Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18; and how there is one Lord in Ephesians 4:5.
How do you make any other conclusion than that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord?
You do not agree that Jesus is the Lord in light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18. When you say that Jesus is the Lord in light of those verses, you are just mouthing words in order to fit a criterium. There is no meaning behind them and therefore they do not qualify for you to have the Holy Ghost.
If you did agree that Jesus is the Lord in light of the verses in question, you would also agree that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord.
Because clearly, those verses tell us that the Father is the one Lord of holy scripture; and therefore if Jesus is also the one Lord, it follows that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord.
re #55.
And I have shown how the Father is the "Lord of heaven and earth" in Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18; and how there is one Lord in Ephesians 4:5.
How do you make any other conclusion than that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord?
You do not agree that Jesus is the Lord in light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18. When you say that Jesus is the Lord in light of those verses, you are just mouthing words in order to fit a criterium. There is no meaning behind them and therefore they do not qualify for you to have the Holy Ghost.
If you did agree that Jesus is the Lord in light of the verses in question, you would also agree that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord.
Because clearly, those verses tell us that the Father is the one Lord of holy scripture; and therefore if Jesus is also the one Lord, it follows that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord.
re #55.
It is actually the Hebrew word adon (not "adoni") in Psalms 110:1.
Here are the definitions.
אָדוֹן
Transliteration
'āḏôn
Pronunciation
aw-done'
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From an unused root (meaning to rule)
Dictionary Aids
TWOT Reference: lord (197x), master(s) (105x), Lord (31x), owner (1x), sir (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
אָדוֹן ʼâdôwn, aw-done'; or (shortened) אָדֹן ʼâdôn; from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine):—lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with 'Adoni-'.
Here are the definitions.
אָדוֹן
Transliteration
'āḏôn
Pronunciation
aw-done'
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From an unused root (meaning to rule)
Dictionary Aids
TWOT Reference: lord (197x), master(s) (105x), Lord (31x), owner (1x), sir (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- firm, strong, lord, master
- lord, master
- reference to men
- superintendent of household,of affairs
- master
- king
- superintendent of household,of affairs
- reference to God
- the Lord God
- Lord of the whole earth
- reference to men
- lords, kings
- reference to men
- proprietor of hill of Samaria
- master
- husband
- prophet
- governor
- prince
- king
- proprietor of hill of Samaria
- reference to God
- Lord of lords (probably = "thy husband, Yahweh")
- reference to men
- my lord, my master
- reference to men
- master
- husband
- prophet
- prince
- king
- father
- Moses
- priest
- theophanic angel
- captain
- general recognition of superiority
- master
- reference to God
- my Lord,my Lord and my God
- Adonai (parallel with Yahweh)
- reference to men
- lord, master
אָדוֹן ʼâdôwn, aw-done'; or (shortened) אָדֹן ʼâdôn; from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine):—lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with 'Adoni-'.
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