Your Thoughts: 1 Thessalonians 1:5-10

[charity]

Charity, I have no problems of your understanding of what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 1, but in his remembrance of the transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain which Peter witnessed, he does not mix what occurred six days earlier with his experience at the transfiguration.

The passage in Mark 8:34-9:1, Jesus was talking about the requirements of being one of His disciples, and finishes this teaching with the consequence for those who are not one of His disciples, i.e. they will experience the second death when He, Jesus, comes and the Kingdom of God is seen in all its power/authority.

We must be careful to chose wisely, those passages that present a particular theme, and keep them separate from other passages which presents a very different theme or message.

I do appreciate that you spend much of your time in the study of the scriptures, as I also do, but I have learnt by experience that I must be very careful as to how I link blocks of scripture together, particularly when they are dealing with very different subject matter.

Shalom

Hello Jay Ross, (Re. reply#56)

Thank you for your advice, but in regard to Matthew 16:27,28 - 17:2-13, I believe the wording of 16:27,28 naturally leads on to what follows in chapter 17. Chapter breaks, verse breaks, subject heading and punctuation, necessary as they are, are all of man, and must be judged by the context and the wording. However, I agree that care must be taken.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hi H-in-H,
•Background Point-
*Jesus' chosen Disciples & Voluntary followers, heard, learned from Jesus face to face.
* THEY became soul Saved confessing Belief, Jesus is The Christ, Son of God... While Jesus WAS still ON Earth.
* THEY became "LATER" (by days), Filled with the Holy Spirit (Born Again), AFTER Jesus Assended to Heaven. (Acts 1)

* Since Jesus was thereafter IN HEAVEN ...The WAIT (For a Confessor) "between" Soul Saving AND Receiving Holy Spirit...
Is NO LONGER necessary.

Ok, this explains things a little clearer for me. But now, how did you come to the conclusion that there is no longer any "wait" between the two experiences after Jesus ascended if the Book of Acts talks about some believing upon the Lord but not having received the baptism in the Holy Spirity yet? (Acts 19:1-6).

 

[Hidden In Him]

No , i dont have to do any of that.. actually.
What i do is just study the NT and obey it's theology, as given as Pauline Theology.

But if the Jews were seeking a sign, what do you think they were seeking a sign for specifically? What were they wanting Him to prove?

Let me show you..

"the jews require a sign"
"signs are for the Jews".

See that? Thats from the NT.

Out of curiosity, what verse are you quoting with the second one? I don't recognize that specific wording anywhere.

"Tongues are for a SIGN".

Do you See all that?
Thats were i get my Theology.

Yes, LoL. What I'm saying is that the "signs" mentioned in various parts of the NT do not always refer to tongues or healings. In Matthew 16:1, the specific phrase is "σημεῖον ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ," or in other words, they were specifically asking Jesus for a "sign in the heavens."

It cannot be talking about tongues here. It has to be referring to something else, IMO, so it then becomes a discussion about what kind of signs are being referred to in 1 Corinthians 1.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Thank you for responding with your thoughts regarding 1 Corinthians 1:21-22, I agree that the signs looked for were those of Joel, and Peter in Acts 2:16 confirms that this is so. The 'signs following' of Mark 16:20 come into the same category as 'signs from heaven', for they were most assuredly from heaven, performed by God.

Hey sister! Fun discussing the word with you.

Now I was following you until you got to your last statement. Yes they were from God, so in that sense they were "from Heaven," but as I was quoting in the previous post to Behold, in Matthew 16:1 the Greek literary reads, "signs in the heavens" rather than "signs from Heaven." I think a distinction should need to be made between the two things personally, as referring to two separate types of signs. And the context of Mark 16:16-20 suggests he was referring to miraculous signs taking place on earth, not in the Heavens.

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Hidden In Him I pray. In the past God has put it into my heart to pray for the Catholic church which I still do but less often now; I pray for people to see the deceit and false doctrines they are brainwashed with and that they may clearly see the simplicity of the true gospel. And just his year I have felt God tell me to pray for all the Church; to get rid of religion and traditions that are meaningless and to raise up Spirit filled leaders with vision. I also pray for the leaders and people in my own fellowship, for guidance from the Holy Spirit and for clear vision.

In my own personal life last year my niece who is Catholic was in turmoil so I prayed for her and took her to my church a couple of times where she was again prayed for. I talked to her about a relationship with Jesus. I told her not to pray to dead saints or Mary but to God the Father through Jesus the Son. She would have carried on coming to church with me but we went into lockdown. Also I befriended a lady who came into our meeting one Sunday by mistake. I told her about Jesus and later baptised her. When the opportunities arise I try to use them but there have been times when the person I was sharing with didn't like what I said and fell out with me.

Prayer is the key. I believe the words "Pray that He send laborers into the harvest" was for all believers. We have to be made ready for the work, which of necessity requires the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The reason I advocate fasting (among others) is because it drives one to a life of prayer. This might not seem as noticeable to everyone, but it is very pronounced with me. But I can't wait until the weather thaws out around here so I can get back to both walking and praying, and fasting as well.

Thanks for the answer. I liked it : )

 

[Hidden In Him]

Have you ever heard about the story in the Hadith about Muhammad's experience upon supposedly being visited by the Arch Angel Gabriel? Robert Spenser has a story that compares Mary's experience of wonder. Muhammad told his wife he was terrified out of his wits, shook with fear, sweat profusely. After he became depressed and suicidal.

This and many other things has caused me to conclude Muhammad was actually visited by another angel, posing as Gabriel; the fallen angel Lucifer. The spirit of this power is not divine but malevolent in the extreme. By contrast, this divine power referenced in Thessalonians is accompanied by a Spirit of Grace, that often overwhelms the receiver with goodness, love, joy, peace, etc.

Yes, I am familiar with that story. I assumed it not to necessarily be Satan himself, but could also have been a powerful demon posing as Gabriel as well. The part about the wife telling him there's no way it could be an evil spirit because it didn't lust after her is always kinda laughable to me; like there's no way an angel could EVER resist her seductive charms, LoL.

It's an interesting story, so thanks for reminding me of it.

Observation. Experience. The text is plain on the matter. Why do you question it?

I'm not questioning it so much as asking for opinions on what is being said. I want people's take on specifically what they think he is referring to, as there are many within Christianity today who tend to shy away from interpretations that give credence to the need for supernatural gifts in the modern church.

What would be your take on that? Do you think it is something the church should still be striving to walk in as part of the assurance they might give to those who believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, or do you think it is no longer really necessary?

 

[charity]

Hey sister! Fun discussing the word with you.

Now I was following you until you got to your last statement. Yes they were from God, so in that sense they were "from Heaven," but as I was quoting in the previous post to Behold, in Matthew 16:1 the Greek literary reads, "signs in the heavens" rather than "signs from Heaven." I think a distinction should need to be made between the two things personally, as referring to two separate types of signs. And the context of Mark 16:16-20 suggests he was referring to miraculous signs taking place on earth, not in the Heavens.

'The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came,
and tempting desired Him that
He would shew them a sign from heaven.'
(Mat 16:1)

Hello @Hidden In Him,

I agree it is good to discuss these things together, even if we do not always agree.

The Greek Interlinear Bible says regarding 'a sign from heaven' in Matthew 16:1:-

' ... they enquire of Him
....... sign
......... out of-the heaven
........... to-on-show
............. to-them,'​

* This was not one of the verses we discussed earlier, was it? I don't know what you are comparing the sign requested in this verse with, I'm sorry! Perhaps it is the time of night, but you have lost me.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Wrangler]

I want people's take on specifically what they think he is referring to, as there are many within Christianity today who tend to shy away from interpretations that give credence to the need for supernatural gifts in the modern church.

What would be your take on that? Do you think it is something the church should still be striving to walk in as part of the assurance they might give to those who believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, or do you think it is no longer really necessary?

IMO, the need for supernatural gifts does not diminish with time. I can share my many supernatural experiences at a later time.

For now, the profound question is why do churches tend to shy away from it? The answer is harsh. Many charlatans have been exposed over time, shaming and demoralizing the church. The risk of exposure, if fraudulent, is best avoided to the discouraged.

Related is the revelation after death that Ravi was sexually immoral. Such things repulse those Jesus wants us to reach out. The collective church seems to take the position, rather than promote supernatural testimony, to under promise and over deliver.

 

[Behold]

Out of curiosity, what verse are you quoting with the second one? I don't recognize that specific wording anywhere.
.

Paul teaches this, which is why i teach it.

1st Corinthinas 1:22

1st Corinthians 14:22

 

[Taken]

Ok, this explains things a little clearer for me. But now, how did you come to the conclusion that there is no longer any "wait" between the two experiences after Jesus ascended if the Book of Acts talks about some believing upon the Lord but not having received the baptism in the Holy Spirity yet? (Acts 19:1-6).

Jesus reveal "their" Wait.
John 14: 2
John 14: 16-17-18

Paul reiterated "their" "wait".
Acts 1:5

Their wait "required" Jesus to no longer be Bodily Present on Earth.

Jesus IS no longer Bodily Present on Earth.
We do not "wait for Jesus to Leave"...

We are in "Waiting" for Him to "Gather us to the "marriage"... "Consecretation" of our ONENESS with Him, Before The Brides father and Saintly Witnesses/ Guests.

(It's the Same Jewish Wedding Protocal...the Groom gathers up His Bride for the Wedding takes the Bride to the Home of the Groom, and the Guests (witnesses) are present and Brides Father is present to Bless the marriage).

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Pearl]

Prayer is the key. I believe the words "Pray that He send laborers into the harvest" was for all believers. We have to be made ready for the work, which of necessity requires the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The reason I advocate fasting (among others) is because it drives one to a life of prayer. This might not seem as noticeable to everyone, but it is very pronounced with me. But I can't wait until the weather thaws out around here so I can get back to both walking and praying, and fasting as well.

Thanks for the answer. I liked it : )

@Hidden In Him Have you seen my blog on fasting?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Absolutely. And this leads me naturally to my 3rd question, which I would ask you now since we are of the same mind on the rest:

If these things are true, how should we be seeking to provide similar assurances (to others) today? I know you responded with, "By preaching the gospel fearlessly, regardless of opposition, in the same manner as Paul; and by shewing the same example in manner of life and witness as described in the passage above. (e.g., Philippians 1:12-14)." If the same manner of life and witness as described in the Thessalonians passage involves signs and wonders following, what does that mean for you and I?

Take your time to pray before answering this one. To me it's an extremely important question, and one I wish more people sincerely asked. I know my own answer to it personally. My problem is in how to go about doing it. I don't subscribe to a Christianity without the supernatural power of God in manifestation to confirm it, but at the same time I find much of modern Pentecostalism to be rife with false gifts, and false "signs and wonders." But I don't believe I ever asked you this question directly: Where in your opinion do we go from here? How do we get back to manifesting the same assurances that the gospel is true as Paul did?

We don't. That is, it isn't up to us to do anything to manifest the Spirit. Remember what Jesus said about the Spirit? It's like the wind. It isn't something we control.

Remember what happened to the disciples with regard to casting out demons? On their brief missionary journey throughout Israel, they were able to cast out demons. When they returned home, they could no longer cast them out? Why? Jesus told them the answer through a parable.

Luke 17:7-8
“Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’? But will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’?

What does he mean? In the parable above, Jesus and the Father are the sheep owners and the Apostles are the slaves plowing or tending sheep. The fact that the slaves eat after the master, represents the idea that those who work for Jesus Christ must place his interests above their own. Signs and wonders followed the apostles not because the apostles had faith, which they did. But rather the signs and wonders accompanied the apostles because both the apostles and the Spirit are working together to serve Jesus Christ.

Jesus is asking his disciples, which of you, in your role as servants of God, believe that God is at your beck and call? Jesus might say the same thing to Pentecostals today. Which of you, being the servants of God, think that God serves you? If you are serving God, and it serves his purpose to perform a miracle in your presence as you serve him, then a miracle will take place, not for your sake, but for the sake of the mission.

It's like this. When soldiers are deep in enemy territory and the enemy has them pinned down and unable to advance, the soldiers call for air support. The military sends air support, not because it serves the soldiers as such, but in order to serve the mission. Likewise, manifestations of the Holy Spirit are not given to support the apostles etc.; they are given to support the mission. And what is the mission?

John 14:16-18
John 15:26-27
John 16:7-9
John 16:12-14

 

[keithr]

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

Did Jesus say anything different to this in Mark 9:1?

Your understanding denies the second death and the consequences of our sins.

Nothing that I wrote denied the second death, nor the consequences of our sins! Daniel 12:2 is referring to the resurrection, and some of those who are resurrected "to shame and everlasting contempt" will suffer the second death.

In Mark 9:1 Jesus says, to his disciples and "the multitude", that there were some people there who will see "God’s Kingdom come with power" before they experience death. He was clearly referring to an imminent event, which is generally understood to be referring to the transfiguration, which is described in the immediately following verses.

I think you are wrong to believe that Jesus was referring to the second death, which occurs at the end of the Millennial age. As I said, it makes no sense that he was referring to those that would suffer the second death, because as it would be their second death then they would have already experienced death, their first death, before then. So Jesus would have been wrong to state that they would not experience death before seeing "God’s Kingdom come with power".

 

[Jay Ross]

Nothing that I wrote denied the second death, nor the consequences of our sins! Daniel 12:2 is referring to the resurrection, and some of those who are resurrected "to shame and everlasting contempt" will suffer the second death.

In Mark 9:1 Jesus says, to his disciples and "the multitude", that there were some people there who will see "God’s Kingdom come with power" before they experience death. He was clearly referring to an imminent event, which is generally understood to be referring to the transfiguration, which is described in the immediately following verses.

I think you are wrong to believe that Jesus was referring to the second death, which occurs at the end of the Millennial age. As I said, it makes no sense that he was referring to those that would suffer the second death, because as it would be their second death then they would have already experienced death, their first death, before then. So Jesus would have been wrong to state that they would not experience death before seeing "God’s Kingdom come with power".

Your comments are based on your understanding of the English use of the word "death" to describe both the physical death and the second death in our English translations. This is true in both our OT and NT translations.

In Genesis 2:17 it tells us that if we sin, we will die the second death, in the Hebrew text, but even the Israelites did not understand that there was a second death that would happen at the time of the Final Judgement at the end of the Age of the Ages.

At the time of Jesus' second coming, with all of the heavenly hosts, all of mankind will be raise up for judgement, and as such, what Jesus said in the Passages, Mark 9:1, Matt 16:24-28 and Luke 9:23-27, is true, in that some of those present while he was speaking about what they must do be be one of His Disciples will suffer the second death when, "they see the Kingdom of God Come with power," "until they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom," and "they see the Kingdom of God." All three passages are speaking about the time of Christ's second coming when the punishment of the second death will be handed out to all the judged unrighteous people, i.e. those who are not one of my disciples.

Jesus was not speaking of an imminent event as you are suggesting.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

I trust that the discussion on the second death in Mark 9:1 is finished and that this thread can return to a discussion on 1 Thess 1:5-10.

Thanks

Shalom

 

[Hidden In Him]

'The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came,
and tempting desired Him that
He would shew them a sign from heaven.'
(Mat 16:1)

Hello @Hidden In Him,

I agree it is good to discuss these things together, even if we do not always agree.

The Greek Interlinear Bible says regarding 'a sign from heaven' in Matthew 16:1:-

' ... they enquire of Him
....... sign
......... out of-the heaven
........... to-on-show
............. to-them,'​

* This was not one of the verses we discussed earlier, was it? I don't know what you are comparing the sign requested in this verse with, I'm sorry! Perhaps it is the time of night, but you have lost me.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Oh! I just noticed something. Technically it is not "sign in the Heavens" but a "sign out of the heaven." Now some translators could render this with simple phrase "a sign from heaven," but as I was saying, He immediately begins discussing signs in the sky (Matthew 16:2-3), so the meaning of "sign out of the heaven" would essentially be in reference to seeing a sign in the heavens, though you are correct: The Greek uses the word ἐκ, not ἐν. My apologies.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Paul teaches this, which is why i teach it.

1st Corinthinas 1:22

1st Corinthians 14:22

1 Corinthians 1:22 reads, "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom."

1 Corinthians 14:22 reads, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serves not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

How did you get from these two verses the exact wording, "signs are for the Jews"? See, the thing about proper interpretation is you have to get extremely exacting about what words are used where. There is not statement in scripture that says, "signs are for the Jews." The only statement in scripture is that "the Jews require a sign." From there, you have to discern what is meant by the phrase by closely examining its context.

Let me ask here: What is your response to Post #63?

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Hidden In Him Have you seen my blog on fasting?

No! Please post a link for me.
I need to be observing some soon, so maybe it will be interesting reading!

 

[charity]

Reply#67 Charity said:-
'The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came,
and tempting desired Him that
He would shew them a sign from heaven.'
(Mat 16:1)

Hello @Hidden In Him,

I agree it is good to discuss these things together, even if we do not always agree.

The Greek Interlinear Bible says regarding 'a sign from heaven' in Matthew 16:1:-

' ... they enquire of Him
....... sign
......... out of-the heaven
........... to-on-show
............. to-them,'​

* This was not one of the verses we discussed earlier, was it? I don't know what you are comparing the sign requested in this verse with, I'm sorry! Perhaps it is the time of night, but you have lost me.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Oh! I just noticed something. Technically it is not "sign in the Heavens" but a "sign out of the heaven." Now some translators could render this with simple phrase "a sign from heaven," but as I was saying, He immediately begins discussing signs in the sky (Matthew 16:2-3), so the meaning of "sign out of the heaven" would essentially be in reference to seeing a sign in the heavens, though you are correct: The Greek uses the word ἐκ, not ἐν. My apologies.

Hi there, @Hidden In Him,

Thank you for coming back to me on this. Your earlier post (reply#64), to which I replied in (reply#67) caused me to come to an abrupt stop:-

Hidden In Him said:-
Now I was following you until you got to your last statement. Yes they were from God, so in that sense they were "from Heaven," but as I was quoting in the previous post to Behold, in Matthew 16:1 the Greek literary reads, "signs in the heavens" rather than "signs from Heaven." I think a distinction should need to be made between the two things personally, as referring to two separate types of signs. And the context of Mark 16:16-20 suggests he was referring to miraculous signs taking place on earth, not in the Heavens.

* Would you please explain this to me, so that I can know how to proceed.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Hidden In Him]

We don't. That is, it isn't up to us to do anything to manifest the Spirit. Remember what Jesus said about the Spirit? It's like the wind. It isn't something we control.

Hey, C&Z!

Yes, on this much we are agreed. Let me get to the rest first before responding.

Remember what happened to the disciples with regard to casting out demons? On their brief missionary journey throughout Israel, they were able to cast out demons. When they returned home, they could no longer cast them out? Why? Jesus told them the answer through a parable.

Luke 17:7-8
“Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’? But will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’?

What does he mean? In the parable above, Jesus and the Father are the sheep owners and the Apostles are the slaves plowing or tending sheep. The fact that the slaves eat after the master, represents the idea that those who work for Jesus Christ must place his interests above their own. Signs and wonders followed the apostles not because the apostles had faith, which they did. But rather the signs and wonders accompanied the apostles because both the apostles and the Spirit are working together to serve Jesus Christ.

Jesus is asking his disciples, which of you, in your role as servants of God, believe that God is at your beck and call? Jesus might say the same thing to Pentecostals today. Which of you, being the servants of God, think that God serves you? If you are serving God, and it serves his purpose to perform a miracle in your presence as you serve him, then a miracle will take place, not for your sake, but for the sake of the mission.

Ok, your post makes an interesting point: It indeed cannot be us who dictates when and where God will do things. In fact, I was making this very point to a sister in another thread about 45 minutes ago. But now, here is the thing: While I agree we would never dictate when and how we are used, do you think there is such a thing as a vessel being properly prepared before it can be used?

To use my own military analogy, suppose a soldier could not be put into a tank or an armored vehicle until he was fully prepared to operate it? In fact, this is why soldiers go through Boot Camp. Until they have been physically conditioned to handle warfare, they cannot be sent to the battlefield. This is the point I am making, and what I believe holds many back from being used greatly by God. They have not brought the flesh under enough that if very strong temptation were sent their way, they might not fold up under the pressure, and do something like start taking glory unto themselves, or sticking their offering plate out, and saying, "Thus sayeth the Lord, Give mightily to His great work," and then pocket some or most of it.

I believe soldiers in Christ must be conditioned against temptation, or they are a tragedy waiting to happen, should God use them to move entire cities, or even nations.