Your Thoughts: 1 Thessalonians 1:5-10

[Hidden In Him]

Hi there, @Hidden In Him,

Thank you for coming back to me on this. Your earlier post (reply#64), to which I replied in (reply#67) caused me to come to an abrupt stop:-

* Would you please explain this to me, so that I can know how to proceed.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

LoL! I was simply saying that my point is still the same. Matthew 16:1-4 is in reference to signs in the sky and in the heavens, rather than miraculous signs on earth, such as healings, tongues and deliverances.

So as I was saying, I think a distinction needs to be made between the two, as referring to two separate types of signs, and I think our discussion on God confirming the word with signs and wonders applies to the Gentiles as well, since the verse used to say that it the "Jews (only) seek a sign" is actually in reference to them seeking signs in the heavens, rather than miraculous signs on earth.

 

[keithr]

Your comments are based on your understanding of the English use of the word "death" to describe both the physical death and the second death in our English translations. This is true in both our OT and NT translations.

In Genesis 2:17 it tells us that if we sin, we will die the second death, in the Hebrew text, but even the Israelites did not understand that there was a second death that would happen at the time of the Final Judgement at the end of the Age of the Ages.

Genesis 2:17 says nothing about a "second" death. It simply states, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die", where "thou shalt surely die" is more precisely translated "dying thou shalt die" (KJV footnote). And that is what happened. The very day they ate the fruit from the tree they started dying, and eventually they died. It was not their second death it was their first death. The "second death" is only mentioned in the book of Revelation.

At the time of Jesus' second coming, with all of the heavenly hosts, all of mankind will be raise up for judgement, and as such, what Jesus said in the Passages, Mark 9:1, Matt 16:24-28 and Luke 9:23-27, is true, in that some of those present while he was speaking about what they must do be be one of His Disciples will suffer the second death when, "they see the Kingdom of God Come with power," "until they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom," and "they see the Kingdom of God." All three passages are speaking about the time of Christ's second coming when the punishment of the second death will be handed out to all the judged unrighteous people, i.e. those who are not one of my disciples.

When Jesus comes in power to setup the Kingdom of God on the earth, everyone, both good and bad, Christian and non-Christian, will be resurrected, and so everyone will "see the Kingdom of God Come with power". Those "that have done evil", and come out of their tombs "to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29), will be on trial for a thousand years, then judged, and only at that time will they suffer the second death if they fail the final test when Satan is released again. (Revelation 20.) So what Jesus said in Mark 9:1 does not make sense if he was referring to the second death, because everyone will have experienced death before seeing the Kingdom come with power (except those that have a part in the rapture). If you are resurrected, and come out of your tomb, then you have already experienced death. Those that were present in the transfiguration, however, were given a vision of Jesus in his glorified, powerful form that he will have when he comes to setup God's Kingdom on earth.

 

[charity]

LoL! I was simply saying that my point is still the same. Matthew 16:1-4 is in reference to signs in the sky and in the heavens, rather than miraculous signs on earth, such as healings, tongues and deliverances.

So as I was saying, I think a distinction needs to be made between the two, as referring to two separate types of signs, and I think our discussion on God confirming the word with signs and wonders applies to the Gentiles as well, since the verse used to say that it the "Jews (only) seek a sign" is actually in reference to them seeking signs in the heavens, rather than miraculous signs on earth.

'He answered and said unto them,
When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring.
O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;
and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.
And He left them, and departed.'
(Mat 16:2-4)

Hi @Hidden In Him,

The signs in the sky and their interpretation is just an example given by the Lord, to show how readily the people discerned' the face of the sky and of the earth' ( Luke 12:56 ), but seemed incapable of discerning the time, and the events taking place before their very eyes, in the form of miracle and sign performed by God at our Lord's hand (Acts of the Apostles 2:22). For these things were a matter of prophetic record in the Old Testament Scriptures, written for their learning, and read in the synagogue for all to hear week by week. So Matthew 16:1-4 has no real application to our discussion does it? Being an example only of what was common lore, or street saying, known by mankind the world over, and observed and applied by farmers and seafarers alike.

* In Acts of the Apostles 2:16, Peter said that what was happening at Pentecost was spoken by the prophet Joel. ( Joel 2:28-32 ) Going on to say:-

(17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,

I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:​

(18) And on My servants and on My handmaidens

I will pour out in those days of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy:​

(19) And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath;

blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:​

(20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,

before that great and notable day of the Lord come:​

(21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words;

Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs,
which God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:​

(23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken,

and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: ... ... '​

* This prophesy of Joel had the potential to have come to pass in all it's fulness, had God willed it so: but it did not, it had a partial fulfilment, but will be fulfilled, now. on a day to come. God says, through Joel, that He will pour out wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath, and we are told what these signs will be. Elsewhere we are also told of the signs which will be observable in the heavens and in the earth prior to and at our Lord's coming.

* However these are not the signs which accompanied the Lord's ministry, which showed Him to be 'approved of God', or that which accompanied the Apostles ministry, which were confirmatory of both their Apostleship and of the Gospel message they were declaring in the name of the Lord.

* By the way, I did not say that the 'signs' were not observable by the Gentile, too. For as in Thessalonica, Paul's listeners were both Jews and devout Gentiles, they would have witnessed the signs that accompanied his ministry too.

* Is this what you were intending to signify, Hidden In Him?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

LoL! I was simply saying that my point is still the same. Matthew 16:1-4 is in reference to signs in the sky and in the heavens, rather than miraculous signs on earth, such as healings, tongues and deliverances.

So as I was saying, I think a distinction needs to be made between the two, as referring to two separate types of signs, and I think our discussion on God confirming the word with signs and wonders applies to the Gentiles as well, since the verse used to say that it the "Jews (only) seek a sign" is actually in reference to them seeking signs in the heavens, rather than miraculous signs on earth.

Hello @Hidden In Him,

My thoughts are continuing on this subject, so this is the second of two responses by me to your post (above).

* There were 'signs' which were prophesied by God through the Old Testament prophets concerning the ministry of our Lord, which He quoted to John's disciples, who came to the Lord to enquire on behalf of John the Baptist, recorded in Matthew 11:1-6 - (Isaiah 35:4-6; Isaiah 42:6-7). These should have been 'signs' to those living in the days of Lord's life and ministry, for they testified of Him.

'Jesus answered and said unto them,
Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear,
the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.'
(Matthew 11:4-5)

* There are also 'signs' prophesied which would accompany the outpouring of the spirit, both at Pentecost, and at the opening of the door of faith ( Acts of the Apostles 14:27 ) to devout Gentiles at the conversion of Cornelius and other Gentile converts following that who were granted repentance unto life (Acts of the Apostles 11:18 ) :-

'And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My Spirit.'
(Joel 2:28)

'And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,
and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded,
because that every man heard them speak in his own language.'
(Acts 2:4-6)

'And these signs shall follow them that believe;
In My Name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents;(Acts of the Apostles 28:3-6)
and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.'(Acts of the Apostles 28:8-9)
(Mark 16:17-18)

'While Peter yet spake these words,
the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished,
as many as came with Peter,
because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. ... ... '
(Acts 10:44-46b)

* See also 1 Corinthians, chapters 12, 13, 14, concerning spiritual gifts which were in evidence in the early church during the Acts period: Do these also have to be considered within this subject?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Behold]

How did you get from these two verses the exact wording, "signs are for the Jews"? See, the thing about proper interpretation is you have to get extremely exacting about what words are used where

Actually with 300+ "new bibles" and all worded slightly different.......>the "being exact", regarding verses, its not really possible, as 50 people here, are probably using a different bible, which shows these verses, semantically slightly different.
So, what you have to do is know what you are talking about, based on being able to "discern" and "rightly divide".
THat, i can do.

So, Jewish Jesus came to JEWS and Jews require a sign..
He gave them many.....these are called "miracles".

The Apostles, had the "signs of an apostle", and until Acts 28, most of them were dealing with Jews.
In Acts 28, Paul, a JEW , a former Pharisee, stopped dealing with Jews, and went to the gentiles, and told them so...
So, in His case, "signs for the Jews" as "jews require a sign", was not really needed., as Gentiles don't require a sign.

And one more.. "with signs following", can be both believers and Apostles..
And remember never make the mistake of thinking that the Book of ACTS is the "acts of a christian", because that book is the "Acts of the Apostles"..

Entire "charismatic" denominations are built on the misunderstanding that the Acts of the Apostles are the acts of every Christian, and that is why you see the fakery, and the nonsense in these denominations, as they are trying to counterfeit the "ACTS of THE APOSTLES".

 

[Hidden In Him]

* In Acts of the Apostles 2:16, Peter said that what was happening at Pentecost was spoken by the prophet Joel. ( Joel 2:28-32 ) Going on to say:-

(17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,
I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:(18) And on My servants and on My handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(19) And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath;
blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:(20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Ok Charity, but see the trouble here is that the words Peter quoted in v.17-18 did come to pass in New Testament times, whereas the things he quoted about in v.19-20 did not. And those two verses are precisely what I think the Jews were wanting to see before they would believe.

My point is that if Israel was seeing v.17-18 already, there would have been no need for them to ask to see more of it. But since it is clear that they did not see v.19-20, this is the part they would have been asking Him for.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello @Hidden In Him,

My thoughts are continuing on this subject, so this is the second of two responses by me to your post (above).

* There were 'signs' which were prophesied by God through the Old Testament prophets concerning the ministry of our Lord, which He quoted to John's disciples, who came to the Lord to enquire on behalf of John the Baptist, recorded in Matthew 11:1-6 - (Isaiah 35:4-6; Isaiah 42:6-7). These should have been 'signs' to those living in the days of Lord's life and ministry, for they testified of Him.

'Jesus answered and said unto them,
Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear,
the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.'
(Matthew 11:4-5)

* There are also 'signs' prophesied which would accompany the outpouring of the spirit, both at Pentecost, and at the opening of the door of faith ( Acts of the Apostles 14:27 ) to devout Gentiles at the conversion of Cornelius and other Gentile converts following that who were granted repentance unto life (Acts of the Apostles 11:18 ) :-

'And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My Spirit.'
(Joel 2:28)

'And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,
and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded,
because that every man heard them speak in his own language.'
(Acts 2:4-6)

'And these signs shall follow them that believe;
In My Name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents;(Acts of the Apostles 28:3-6)
and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.'(Acts of the Apostles 28:8-9)
(Mark 16:17-18)

'While Peter yet spake these words,
the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished,
as many as came with Peter,
because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. ... ... '
(Acts 10:44-46b)

* See also 1 Corinthians, chapters 12, 13, 14, concerning spiritual gifts which were in evidence in the early church during the Acts period: Do these also have to be considered within this subject?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Well remember. I don't disagree with you that there were two types of signs; signs in the heavens, and signs on earth in the form of miracles. I'm only debating with you over what types of signs was Paul referring to in 1 Corinthians 1:22.

 

[Behold]

Those "that have done evil", and come out of their tombs "to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29), will be on trial for a thousand years,

[/QUOTE]

Is this Mormon or JW theology you are pasting here?
As its certainly not Christian.

Listen, there is no 1000 yr "trial" for "those who have done evil".....
There is only this...... John 3:36 = Revelation 20:11

If you die a Christ rejector, never having been born again on this earth, as Jesus commands..="You MUST be born again", then you are already damned, before you die, and are just waiting for hell .

 

[Hidden In Him]

Actually with 300+ "new bibles" and all worded slightly different.......>the "being exact", regarding verses, its not really possible

No, no. This is one place where I would very strongly disagree with you. I agree that there are a million different Bibles out there, but things can be whittled down with far more accuracy if you are looking at the original text, and when it gets into matters like we are discussing here - acutely interpreting the scriptures in word for word equivalence to come to an exacting meaning of what is being said - you need to first hold to the idea that this is possible. Otherwise we are kinda just blowing in the wind, so to speak. The basis of our beliefs is founded upon exacting interpretation of the word.

So, what you have to do is know what you are talking about, based on being able to "discern" and "rightly divide".
THat, i can do.

Ummm... this is actually the problem with segments of the Charismatic church, who rely too heavily on what they think they can "discern" rather than actually basing things on strict analysis of the original. Not that you are Charismatic or approach things as drastically as they might, but I could never accept this approach to the word because I have seen it lead to too many errors.

Entire "charismatic" denominations are built on the misunderstanding that the Acts of the Apostles are the acts of every Christian, and that is why you see the fakery, and the nonsense in these denominations, as they are trying to counterfeit the "ACTS of THE APOSTLES".

I see the argument. But about this, doesn't it say in Mark 16 that those signs would follow "those who believe"? Seems that would at least include more than just the apostles yes?

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

[Behold]

No, no. This is one place where I would very strongly disagree with you. I agree that there are a million different Bibles out there, but things can be whittled down with far more accuracy if you are looking at the original text,.

Let me stop you right there.
Ok?

1.) there is NO Original text. There is NO Original Greek manuscript... = ZERO......there are fragments, and there are the dead sea scrolls, but there is NO ORIGINAL Greek texts, extant.

So, when you hear someone say......>"but if we look at what it says in the ORIGINAL GREEK"....they are telling you NONSENSE, often.
IN that case you are generally dealing with a Bible Corrector, and its best to leave that person's ministry, as anyone who constantly corrects the bible with the "original" that does not exist, has evaluated themselves as above the Holy Bible, and that person is GONE....they are lost in the sea of self righteousness.

So, there is no "original greek text"..there are only copies of copies of copies that have generated about 30 greek manuscripts, of which 95% are not usually accepted, as they are CORRUPTED Manuscripts.
Basically there are a few that made all the New Bibles., and many of those are only good for filling up dumpsters.

 

[charity]

Ok Charity, but see the trouble here is that the words Peter quoted in v.17-18 did come to pass in New Testament times, whereas the things he quoted about in v.19-20 did not. And those two verses are precisely what I think the Jews were wanting to see before they would believe.

My point is that if Israel was seeing v.17-18 already, there would have been no need for them to ask to see more of it. But since it is clear that they did not see v.19-20, this is the part they would have been asking Him for.

Hello @Hidden In Him,

And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon;
and the same man was just and devout,
waiting for the consolation of Israel:
and the Holy Ghost was upon Him.'
And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost,
that he should not see death,
before he had seen the Lord's Christ.'
(Luke 2:25)

'And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary His mother,
Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel;
and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,)
that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.'
(Luke 2:34)

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Behold]

Hello @Hidden In Him,

And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon;
and the same man was just and devout,
waiting for the consolation of Israel:
and the Holy Ghost was upon Him.'
And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost,
that he should not see death,
before he had seen the Lord's Christ.'
(Luke 2:25)

'And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary His mother,
Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel;
and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,)
that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.'
(Luke 2:34)

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes, and OT Prophets revealed truth or testified of it, by the Holy Spirit that was "in" them...

This , "IN" tho, is not the same as being sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

In the OT you have...>"and the word of the Lord CAME to :.= Prophet A-Z.
So, that is the HS anointing.
THat is not the same as being born again, where you become "One with God and Christ" and the HS is sealed in you....

This sealing "in you", is Christ in you"< and no Old Testament Prophet had Christ in them, but they were anointed by the Holy Spirit.

IN the NT, the born again have "Christ in them" and we are "in Christ".... "One with God".

No Prophet in the Old Testament was "seated in heavenly places IN Christ", nor were they... "As Christ IS, so are the born again, in the world".

 

[Hidden In Him]

1.) there is NO Original text. There is NO Original Greek manuscript... = ZERO......there are fragments, and there are the dead sea scrolls, but there is NO ORIGINAL Greek texts, extant.

LoL. Then where do you think you got your English Bible from? Is it like that Mormon thing where it was magically dictated by an angel and then buried in the Americas somewhere?

I'm sorry to poke fun, but your position is kinda ridiculous here. First you assert that we have 300 Bibles, then you denounce the idea that there is such a thing as original texts, all while touting your "discernment" as what we should all be relying upon.

I hate to say this, but your position is running off the rails, LoL.

So, when you hear someone say......>"but if we look at what it says in the ORIGINAL GREEK"....they are telling you NONSENSE, often.

I'm not telling you nonsense.

IN that case you are generally dealing with a Bible Corrector, and its best to leave that person's ministry, as anyone who constantly corrects the bible with the "original" that does not exist, has evaluated themselves as above the Holy Bible, and that person is GONE....they are lost in the sea of self righteousness.

Behold, with all due respect, you are putting yourself above the Bible. Look again at your progression here:
- First you assert that we have 300 Bibles, in effect denouncing them all essentially as untrustworthy
- Then you denounce the idea that original texts are reliable, all the more suggesting that there is no such thing as a reliable word of God
- And in this context, you proclaim your "discernment" of the 300 Bibles as the only thing people should rely on

I wish I was exaggerating, but this is literally what you are saying here, and it is an utter fools move. You don't want to subscribe to this, Behold. It has the makings of a cult in it. You could stand up and say you have "discerned" anything, and that people should trust your word, and that anyone who cites the Greek as refuting you is simply a "Bible Correcter," and that they should leave that ministry and listen to you alone.

Buddy, I'm not saying this disrespectfully, but your beliefs are more dangerous than I realized if you truly believe these things.

I suppose you might take offense at my saying that, but it needs to be said nonetheless. Your entire Christianity is based on you instead of Jesus Christ, and that's a very dangerous thing to be teaching.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello @Hidden In Him,

And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon;
and the same man was just and devout,
waiting for the consolation of Israel:
and the Holy Ghost was upon Him.'
And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost,
that he should not see death,
before he had seen the Lord's Christ.'
(Luke 2:25)

'And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary His mother,
Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel;
and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,)
that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.'
(Luke 2:34)

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks for the reply again, Charity. Not sure if I follow your point here, though. I could surmise, but maybe it's better to ask you directly: How do these passages you quote address the point I was making in Post #86?... Forgive me for not getting it, btw. Maybe if I look at it for awhile it will dawn on me the point you are trying to make.

 

[Behold]

LoL. Then where do you think you got your English Bible from? Is it like that Mormon thing where it was magically dictated by an angel and then buried in the Americas somewhere?

I'm sorry to poke fun, but your position is kinda ridiculous here. First you assert that we have 300 Bibles, then you denounce the idea that there is such a thing as original texts, all while touting your "discernment" as what we should all be relying upon.
.

I see that you didnt comprehend what i actually wrote before you got lost in your ignorant sarcasm.

Let me try again.

We get the KJV from the "received Text" or the Textus Receptus. This is one of the "accepted" Greek texts, out of that 30 i told you about.
A Greek "text" is the complete manuscripts, in Koine Greek...... Matthew through The Revelation.
Its the whole NT, complete.
Thats a "greek text"., and there are 30, obo... But only a handful are accepted by "scholars", throughout history, as "not corrupted"....

So, all of these, are NOT ORIGINAL..

Hidden in Him.....the Originals, are the Apostles's letters.
We dont have those...... comprehend ??????
Over the course of time, 2000 yrs... copies were copied, and copied, and that is what we have as our Greek Texts.
No originals, just copies.

 

[charity]

Thanks for the reply again, Charity. Not sure if I follow your point here, though. I could surmise, but maybe it's better to ask you directly: How do these passages you quote address the point I was making in Post #86?... Forgive me for not getting it, btw. Maybe if I look at it for awhile it will dawn on me the point you are trying to make.

Hello @Hidden In Him,

I just saw the words of Simeon, referring to the Lord as a 'sign' in Himself to Israel, but one which would be spoken against, and all thought of any other signs flew out of the window. So, forgive me for confusing you, my friend.

Though I don't know how to answer #86, and didn't see #87 until now, regarding 1 Corinthians 1:22, and your words regarding what type of sign Paul was referring to there, ' For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:' Let me close this post by quoting what follows, and perhaps we can continue with our conversation on this in another post, yes? ( it is nearly 12.00pm here)

'But we preach Christ crucified,
unto the Jews a stumblingblock,
and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.'
(1 Corinthians 1:23-24)

* Christ:- 'The sign that shall be spoken against' (Luke 2:34-35)

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Hidden In Him]

I see that you didnt comprehend what i actually wrote before you got lost in your ignorant sarcasm.

Let me try again.

We get the KJV from the "received Text" or the Textus Receptus. This is one of the "accepted" Greek texts, out of that 30 i told you about.
A Greek "text" is the complete manuscripts, in Koine Greek...... Matthew through The Revelation.
Its the whole NT, complete.
Thats a "greek text"., and there are 30, obo... But only a handful are accepted by "scholars", throughout history, as "not corrupted"....

So, all of these, are NOT ORIGINAL..

Hidden in Him.....the Originals, are the Apostles's letters.
We dont have those...... comprehend ??????
Over the course of time, 2000 yrs... copies were copied, and copied, and that is what we have as our Greek Texts.
No originals, just copies.

I understood you. What makes you think I didn't understand? When I use the term "originals" I am referring to texts in the original language. If you honor the TR, you honor texts written in the original language. And in Mark 16:15-18, even the text you favor has no disagreement with any other texts we have fragments of. So I was wishing to discuss the original language.

Do you favor the English King James Version over the Received Text? Your use of the term "Bible Correcters" suggests you do.

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Behold. Still there? I'm curious about your response, so let me ask again:

When I use the term "originals" I am referring to texts in the original language. If you honor the TR, you honor texts written in the original language. And in Mark 16:15-18, even the text you favor has no disagreement with any other texts we have fragments of. So I was wishing to discuss the original language.

Do you favor the English King James Version over the Received Text? Your use of the term "Bible Correcters" suggests you do.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hey, C&Z!

Yes, on this much we are agreed. Let me get to the rest first before responding.


Ok, your post makes an interesting point: It indeed cannot be us who dictates when and where God will do things. In fact, I was making this very point to a sister in another thread about 45 minutes ago. But now, here is the thing: While I agree we would never dictate when and how we are used, do you think there is such a thing as a vessel being properly prepared before it can be used?

To use my own military analogy, suppose a soldier could not be put into a tank or an armored vehicle until he was fully prepared to operate it? In fact, this is why soldiers go through Boot Camp. Until they have been physically conditioned to handle warfare, they cannot be sent to the battlefield. This is the point I am making, and what I believe holds many back from being used greatly by God. They have not brought the flesh under enough that if very strong temptation were sent their way, they might not fold up under the pressure, and do something like start taking glory unto themselves, or sticking their offering plate out, and saying, "Thus sayeth the Lord, Give mightily to His great work," and then pocket some or most of it.

I believe soldiers in Christ must be conditioned against temptation, or they are a tragedy waiting to happen, should God use them to move entire cities, or even nations.

I am uncomfortable with the term "vessel" but I certainly agree with your main point. I think a review of the Bible would reveal a great emphasis is placed on mentoring. Those with greater experience walking in the Lord, are seen taking the time to mentor those with less experience. We find this made explicit in Paul's writings: the older women are to mentor the younger women, the older men are to mentor the younger men, etc. And it a case writ large, we see Paul's mentoring of Timothy.

I have no experience with modern day prophecy, but if I were allowed to extrapolate from the rest of scripture, I would say that the same holds true of prophets. Those mature in the lord, walking with the Lord for a long time, skilled in discernment and the ways of a prophet would mentor those with the gift of prophecy who are less experienced in discernment etc.

I could be wrong, but I think the same thing could be said for those with the gift of healing. Among those with the gift of healing will be those who have walked with the Lord, worthy of the gospel, who can mentor those who have just come to faith.

This principle would apply in all aspects of being a believer: it behooves mature believers to take the time to mentor those with less experience walking in the Lord.

Yes?

 

[Behold]

@Behold. Still there? I'm curious about your response, so let me ask again:

When I use the term "originals" I am referring to texts in the original language. If you honor the TR, you honor texts written in the original language. And in Mark 16:15-18, even the text you favor has no disagreement with any other texts we have fragments of. So I was wishing to discuss the original language.

Do you favor the English King James Version over the Received Text? Your use of the term "Bible Correcters" suggests you do.

The "received text" was used to create the Authorized Version.
"Nestle's Text" that is used to create many "new" bibles, use to be the KVJ received text, but they changed it, and now its not as authentic.

"bible correctors" are generally preachers who try to create their own theology by discrediting the Bible.
They do this by giving you the impression that the "original greek" is superior,..
This is a total fraud, because there is no "original", so, when you hear that, just remember what i told you.