Your Thoughts: 1 Thessalonians 1:5-10

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Waiting on him

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My opinion is that mans soul purpose is to declare the glory of God. What if the heavens in the 19th psalm are just that, the Apostles of Christ. There seems to be much talk about how there have been no signs in the heavens, what if we are the heavens, and within all of us the bridegroom goes fourth running a race as in Paul?
Paul definitely affirmed there was no place his speech was not heard.
He definitely ran as one to win a prize.
God assuredly placed His tabernacle within him.
The way I see it is, the bridegroom is going fourth.
 

Wrangler

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They do this by giving you the impression that the "original greek" is superior,..
This is a total fraud, because there is no "original",

Well, sort of.

There is an original language.

There are many manuscripts in this language NT Scripture was written. While there is much agreement, there are also differences. The most obvious is 3 endings to the Gospel of Mark, depending on which manuscript you are translating from.

What is not superior in the original is grammar. The original has no grammar. The most well known grammatical error is a comma placed before rather after “today” when our Lord said to the thief on the cross:

I tell you today, you will be in my Father’s kingdom.
 

keithr

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Is this Mormon or JW theology you are pasting here?
As its certainly not Christian.

Listen, there is no 1000 yr "trial" for "those who have done evil".....
There is only this...... John 3:36 = Revelation 20:11
As I referenced in reply #82, it's from Revelation 20:

(Rev 20:4) I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
(Rev 20:5) [The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished.] This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.

This is referring to resurrected Christians, who with Jesus will reign for 1,000 years. They are reigning over the rest of mankind - including those resurrected who were not Christians when they died.

(Rev 20:5) The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished.

This is referring to the rest of mankind, who are being reigned over for the 1,000 years, a time of restitution and blessing, without the corrupting and deceiving influence of Satan (who was bound in verse 2). They don't gain the right to eternal life until the end of the 1,000 years. (This verse is considered to be an interpolation - it didn't exist in manuscripts older than the seventh century.)

(Rev 20:7) And after the thousand years, Satan will be released from his prison,
(Rev 20:8) and he will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

This is the final trial at the end of the 1,000 years.

(Rev 20:9) They went up over the width of the earth, and surrounded the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. Fire came down out of heaven from God and devoured them.

Note it refers to saints (holy ones). During the 1,000 years everyone will have been taught to believe in Jesus, and gradually restored to perfection.

If you die a Christ rejector, never having been born again on this earth, as Jesus commands..="You MUST be born again", then you are already damned, before you die, and are just waiting for hell .
You don't need to be "born again" to escape the "wages of sin" (death). Jesus said, “unless one is born anew, he can’t see God’s Kingdom” (John 3:3). He doesn't say you must be born again before you die, merely that in order to "see God’s Kingdom" you have to be born again as a spirit being, because no human can go to heaven - only spirit beings can exist there. But non-Christians are not born again as spirit beings, they are resurrected as humans again. Only those that refuse to be perfected or fail the final trial and side with Satan will then be destroyed:

14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
 

Hidden In Him

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Hello @Hidden In Him,

I just saw the words of Simeon, referring to the Lord as a 'sign' in Himself to Israel, but one which would be spoken against, and all thought of any other signs flew out of the window. So, forgive me for confusing you, my friend.

Though I don't know how to answer #86, and didn't see #87 until now, regarding 1 Corinthians 1:22, and your words regarding what type of sign Paul was referring to there, ' For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:' Let me close this post by quoting what follows, and perhaps we can continue with our conversation on this in another post, yes? ( it is nearly 12.00pm here)

'But we preach Christ crucified,
unto the Jews a stumblingblock,
and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.'

(1 Corinthians 1:23-24)

* Christ:- 'The sign that shall be spoken against' (Luke 2:34-35)

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Good evening, sister (morning still for me). Yes, I'm aware of how late it gets for you. I take my time with these threads, but I at least try to get in a response to two per day so you have something for the next. :)

About Luke 2:34-35 and the "sign spoken against," personally I take it to be the sign of Jonah, but it's an interesting question. Maybe you have another theory.
 

Hidden In Him

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I have no experience with modern day prophecy, but if I were allowed to extrapolate from the rest of scripture, I would say that the same holds true of prophets. Those mature in the lord, walking with the Lord for a long time, skilled in discernment and the ways of a prophet would mentor those with the gift of prophecy who are less experienced in discernment etc.

I could be wrong, but I think the same thing could be said for those with the gift of healing. Among those with the gift of healing will be those who have walked with the Lord, worthy of the gospel, who can mentor those who have just come to faith.

This principle would apply in all aspects of being a believer: it behooves mature believers to take the time to mentor those with less experience walking in the Lord.

Yes?


Absolutely. I think experience works best at confirming to people coming up that certain things they see happening are nothing new, and that things they suspect may be happening indeed actually are or are not, depending on the context. I take operating in a gift to be like operating in a skill, and if you have people with experience who have gone before you, not everything has to be trial and error. :)

I do think that the condition and motives of the heart is very important as well, however. If the Tempter has anything to work with, he will try a believer on for size, especially if that person really starts to become a problem to the kingdom of darkness.
 

Hidden In Him

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The "received text" was used to create the Authorized Version.
"Nestle's Text" that is used to create many "new" bibles, use to be the KVJ received text, but they changed it, and now its not as authentic.

"bible correctors" are generally preachers who try to create their own theology by discrediting the Bible.
They do this by giving you the impression that the "original greek" is superior,..
This is a total fraud, because there is no "original", so, when you hear that, just remember what i told you.


Ok, thanks for your response. Now again, I'm up on the normal KJV and TR position. But what I'm asking specifically is this: Suppose a certain passage is being debated, and the Received Text alone is being discussed (not any others), yet one person takes the view that the KJV translation was not the right way the verse or passage in question should have been translated from the TR?

Would in your view the proper translation of the TR be open to discussion, or do you view the KJV as a flawless translation of the Received Text and beyond criticism?
 

Hidden In Him

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I tell you today, you will be in my Father’s kingdom.

In Paradise. :) (Luke 23:43).

You may be confusing two verses. This sounds a bit like what Jesus said in Matthew 26:29, "I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
 

Hidden In Him

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My opinion is that mans soul purpose is to declare the glory of God. What if the heavens in the 19th psalm are just that, the Apostles of Christ. There seems to be much talk about how there have been no signs in the heavens, what if we are the heavens, and within all of us the bridegroom goes fourth running a race as in Paul?
Paul definitely affirmed there was no place his speech was not heard.
He definitely ran as one to win a prize.
God assuredly placed His tabernacle within him.
The way I see it is, the bridegroom is going fourth.


This is very different take, Waiting, and thanks for the response.

This is what I would refer to as a very spiritualized interpretation of the subject matter. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with spiritualizations, just that I take the view that the literal interpretation (where applicable) should always take precedence and be ironed out first.

Personally it doesn't bother my theology that the signs in Joel 2:31 have not been seen yet. I take that verse literally, and to me it just all the more confirms that the Day of the Lord has not yet come, and is as of yet unfulfilled.

But when it comes to spiritualizations of scripture, there are some here who engage in that and might be better suited to discussing it with you. Episkopos does some of it, and Scott A was notorious for it as I remember, although I haven't seen him here in a long time now.

God bless, and thanks again for the post.
 

Jay Ross

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The "received text" was used to create the Authorized Version.
"Nestle's Text" that is used to create many "new" bibles, use to be the KVJ received text, but they changed it, and now its not as authentic.

"bible correctors" are generally preachers who try to create their own theology by discrediting the Bible.
They do this by giving you the impression that the "original greek" is superior,..
This is a total fraud, because there is no "original", so, when you hear that, just remember what i told you.

Perhaps, we should remember that all have their particular bias as to how the "source text" should be translated.

One such bias that I see is the translation of the Hebrew word H:5769 in Genesis 13:15 which in my humble opinion gives the wrong impression as to the context of what the Lord is conveying to Abraham. This is how the NKJV paraphrases it: -

Genesis 13:15: - 15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.​

The way in which I would paraphrase this verse is very different: -

Genesis 13:15: - 15 for all the land/earth which you see I give to you and/, {that (entity)} I will give to your descendants forever/for a long period of time {whose ending is at a vanishing point of time in the future}.​

The NKJV's bias is based on the premise that the "Promised Land" was given to Abraham and His descendants for all time, whereas the area of land described in Genesis 15:17-21 was a solemn sign covenant to confirm that when they had possession of the described land area, that they would also know that, at some time in the future, they would inherit the whole of God's earth.

Now your statement that ""bible correctors" are generally preachers who try to create their own theology by discrediting the Bible.", is false in that the people who, in most cases, are trying to rectify the translation errors and theological biases of the translators. However, we must also keep in mind that they, in attempting to correct the English translations, also do so from the perspective of their own theological biases.

To then claim that they do this "by giving you the impression that the "original Greek" is superior,..," is a flawed argument against what they are trying to do in putting forward a more contextually correct rendering of the original Greek text. For you to suggest that the "original" English translation texts are infallible and that these "pastors" in going to the appropriate interlinear and validating for themselves whether or no there is an error in the respective English translations is only discrediting the respective English "Bibles," because the Greek texts in the interlinear is flawed and is not what the earliest translations were based on.

Your argument simply does not stack up at all. My experience from studying the translations based on the respective interlinear, strongly indicates to me, that the respective "authorised" English Translations, are in error and that many corrections are needed.

Who does not want the translations corrected? Is it not Satan?

I rest my case.
 

Behold

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Well, sort of.

There is an original language.

Im not talking about language, im talking about literal, actual, extant, completed New Testaments, in Koine Greek.
There about 30, obo, of these completed manuscripts.
Only a few are accepted, as most are altered, thus, corrupted.
 

Behold

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Suppose a certain passage is being debated, and the Received Text alone is being discussed (not any others), yet one person takes the view that the KJV translation was not the right way the verse or passage in question should have been translated from the TR?

Lets say a person is a bible scholar, then that person would have a limited amount of justification to compare different bibles.

But in the case of a Minister, Pastor, Pope, Bishop, Teacher.......this person can't stand in a Pulpit or exist on a Forum to correct the word of God with "what i think" or..."a better translation is".......
And why?
1.) The bible will be here long after this self righteous carnal idiot is dead.
2.) When you correct a bible, using your Pulpit authority, you cast doubt on it being infallible authority.

And THAT, is the devil's work.
 

Hidden In Him

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Lets say a person is a bible scholar, then that person would have a limited amount of justification to compare different bibles.

But in the case of a Minister, Pastor, Pope, Bishop, Teacher.......this person can't stand in a Pulpit or exist on a Forum to correct the word of God with "what i think" or..."a better translation is".......
And why?
1.) The bible will be here long after this self righteous carnal idiot is dead.
2.) When you correct a bible, using your Pulpit authority, you cast doubt on it being infallible authority.

And THAT, is the devil's work.

Alright. Point understood. And I agree that there are many who are essentially apprentices (at best) in handling the word of God who nevertheless stand up and say, "The Greek means this...," when in fact the most they have done is consulted one work that gave a definition that fit in line with what they wanted to preach. But now, the trouble there too is that sometimes a minister or pastor actually does have some decent scholarship behind them, so you can't always necessarily go by what appears to be the case on the surface.

I may not agree with everything you teach, but you are certainly a teacher. Have you ever invested any time in studying the original languages? I'm not asking for any other reason than that it might help you understand and teach the word better.
 

charity

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'For our gospel came not unto you in word only,
.. but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance;
.... as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
...... And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord,
........ having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
.......... So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
............ For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia,
but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad;
.. so that we need not to speak any thing.
.... For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you,
...... and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
........ And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead,
.......... even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.'

(1 Thessalonians 1:5-10)

Hello @Hidden In Him,

Do you feel the three questions you initially raised in your OP have been adequately covered?
1. What did Paul mean by saying the word came unto the Thessalonians "in power and in the Holy Spirit"? Also, as with the previous study, how did Paul know for a fact these things had happened among them?
2. What did Paul mean by describing these things as "great assurances," and then adding the words, "just as you know what type of men we were among you for your sakes"? What were Paul, Silas and Timothy doing among them that also gave the Thessalonians assurance the gospel was true?
3. How should we be seeking to provide similar assurances (to others) today?

* Are you happy with the outcome? Or are there still issues outstanding in your mind in regard to this passage of Scripture, that you feel we have not adequately covered?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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marks

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I may not agree with everything you teach, but you are certainly a teacher. Have you ever invested any time in studying the original languages? I'm not asking for any other reason than that it might help you understand and teach the word better.
@Behold

I've been interested following this side discussion.

I have a question for both of you, if I may . . .

IF a teacher does not have the gift of teaching from the Holy Spirit, how much does it matter if they do or don't go into the original languages, or even compare 2 translations?

. . . or . . .

IF a teacher does have the gift of teaching from the Holy Spirit, won't the Holy Spirit give the teaching with or without the original language studies?

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

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@Behold

I've been interested following this side discussion.

I have a question for both of you, if I may . . .

IF a teacher does not have the gift of teaching from the Holy Spirit, how much does it matter if they do or don't go into the original languages, or even compare 2 translations?

. . . or . . .

IF a teacher does have the gift of teaching from the Holy Spirit, won't the Holy Spirit give the teaching with or without the original language studies?

Much love!

I think the Holy Spirit will eventually lead you there, which is why I was asking him. Teaching is different from preaching. We educate, often on the technical aspects of the word of God, and it is from that education that those who preach the truth (pastors, evangelists) are better armed to proclaim it accurately.
 

Hidden In Him

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Hello @Hidden In Him,

Do you feel the three questions you initially raised in your OP have been adequately covered?
* Are you happy with the outcome? Or are there still issues outstanding in your mind in regard to this passage of Scripture, that you feel we have not adequately covered?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I think we covered it for the most part, sister. And I have to say, I appreciate your participation as much if not more than any. Such a nice change of pace to be able to discuss the word in a friendly Spirit, even when we don't always agree. :)
 
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marks

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I think the Holy Spirit will eventually lead you there, which is why I was asking him. Teaching is different from preaching. We educate, often on the technical aspects of the word of God, and it is from that education that those who preach the truth (pastors, evangelists) are better armed to proclaim it accurately.

Teaching and preaching . . . I know we use "preach" more loosely than I find it in the NT. With 1 exception, in all places where context verifies the meaning, preaching is always the proclamation of the Gospel. In those other places, this meaning fits just fine. The one exception being an official proclamation in Ephesus, if memory serves.

For me, when I think of teaching and preaching, this represents teaching as we would think of it, and evangelizing, both being their own gifts. So for me, whether we do the extra study, or just focus on a single translation, I look to the Holy Spirit to lead each of us individually, in the way that suits each of us best.

I think that many people study and teach thinking that they are teaching in the gifting of the Holy Spirit and are mistaken. I think there are others who teach what the Word speaks to their heart, and the Holy Spirit is putting every word into their mouth. And likely every shade in between!

Much love!
 

keithr

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You just stated on a Christian Forum, that we dont need to be born again.

I suggest you reconsider that.
I did not state that Christians don't need to be born again, so I don't need to reconsider it. I had stated that that we don't need to be born again in order to escape death, i.e. we don't need to be born again to be resurrected. You had implied that only Christians can have eternal life and that everyone else will not have eternal life. That is wrong.

To repeat, Jesus said, “Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3 MKJV). He didn't say you must be born again before you die, merely that in order to "see God’s Kingdom" you have to be born again. Whether you are a Christian that is resurrected as a new creature (born again), a spirit being, and go to heaven, or whether you are not Christian and are resurrected as a human again and remain on the Earth, in either case you have escaped death and gained life again. For the Christians they immediately have eternal life, because their trial is during the present life - the narrow (difficult) way (Matthew 7:13). For the non-Christians they will only gain eternal life after their 1,000 year trial - the broad (easier) way (Isaiah 35:8-10).

Jesus' sacrifice was for all people (Hebrews 10:10, 2 Corinthians 5:15, 1 Timothy 2:6), not just Christians who believe before they die, during a time when God is calling people to become part of a new creation.
 
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Behold

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But now, the trouble there too is that sometimes a minister or pastor actually does have some decent scholarship behind them, so you can't always necessarily go by what appears to be the case on the surface.

I may not agree with everything you teach, but you are certainly a teacher. Have you ever invested any time in studying the original languages? I'm not asking for any other reason than that it might help you understand and teach the word better.

Im seminary trained and have training in manuscript evidence.

Here is the thing with Teachers.
All have a point of view, and unless the person is.

A.) not deceived
B.) More concerned with shedding Light then anything else

Then that is proof that this person is all about heresy and self righteousness.

It would be nice if most people who are all over christian forums were not generally spiritually toxic to others.
But that is, sadly, not the case.

And so, what is the main thing you look for in a (pro-claimed) Pastor, Evangelist, Teacher...

Well, one of the hard things for a lay person to do is to understand who is real and who is pretending to be real.
As the real are real, and Satan's ministers, can sound real......so, that is a problem.
The deceived do not sound like they are deceived, as that is the nature of deception.
After all, if a deceived person KNEW they were deceived, they would stop being deceived.
And many, once shown they are, just hate and rave and bite, as they can't stand the idea of not being "right".
Many would rather stay wrong, then just realize they are in a mess, when they know they are in a cult, or similar.

Listen, when you have been in a water cult, since you were born, and one day you realize you are in a cult that pretends to be all about Christ, but is really completely man made and bible rejecting....... well, its not easy to stop being what you've been all your life.
It takes some backbone and some courage to admit "i was deceived", and get out of it.
Its difficult, as this is a stronghold , that for many, is 20, 30, 40+ yrs, and they LOVE their denomination..... So, to have to get away from it, is hard.
So.... you have to know, how to know the difference, between a dark light and a real Light... or you will end up in a cult, or worse, you'll end up faith destroyed

So, when looking for the "real" then 1.) you must be familiar with Paul's theology, and Paul's Gospel, and be yourself grounded in Grace, vs, ruined by theology.

If a person can't name Paul's epistles, then that is pretty strong evidence that they are living in the wrong parts of the NT, (Theologically and Spiritually)
The pursuit of Theology as discipleship, is an error.
Paul does not tell you to be a deep theologian, Paul tells you to be sure of your DOCTRINE, as that is where the heretics are found in the spiritual ditch of darkness.
Their doctrine is a cat box.
There are so many people who are drowning in theology, as that is what it does, unless its supported by a strong and deep underpinning of God's Grace.
I always tell my students and my readers to live in Hebrews 13:9.
As that verse teaches you where you are supposed to live, spiritually, and it exposes all those who didnt do that, and don't, and what they have become.

So, what do you look for in a teacher or in a pulpit?
You listen to how they present what saves you, and most especially what KEEPS you saved.

A heretic can't teach that Jesus keeps you saved, because they don't believe this...
So, all their theology is going to talk about how "self can lose salvation, and how self keeps self saved".
See that "self"?
Thats Satan ministers and teachers. They are the ministers of SELF-righteousness. = 100%
Whereas God's ministers give God all the Credit for saving them, and keeping them saved., and never do they give this credit to water or works or self..

Philippians 1:6
 
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