Your Thoughts: Are The NT/OT Gods "Different"?

[Hidden In Him]

It would appear one of us is. (that would be U lol)

Smart Aleck!

 

[WaterSong]

Smart Aleck!

LOL!

 

[Cooper]

Gnostics called, if I recall correctly, the OT deity the Demiurge.

Not that long ago a pastor gave a two part sermon that appears(ed) on YouTube for a time. I can't find it now. The title of which was something like, Was Satan the God of the Old Testament?
My sister told me about this and I didn't bother to get the link back then. However, she said it was quite a compelling argument. Now I think of it given we're discussing the seeming personality differences between God of the OT & that as defined by Jesus in the New.


Bible.org 3. Satan’s Part in God’s Perfect Plan | Bible.org

Good link. Have you seen this?

Is Lucifer the God of Judaism
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[Cooper]

This may help. The Golden Calf - My Jewish Learning

From the Jewish site "Later, after Jeroboam’s calves came to be treated as idols"

Their idol worship is all the way through the Old Testament. They worshiped:-

Anammelech; Asherah; Ass-Worship; Astarte Worship Among the Hebrews; Atargatis; Ba'al and Ba'al-Worship; Baal-peor; Baal-zebub; Baal-zephon; Bamah; Calf, Golden; Calf-Worship; Chemosh; Dagon; High Place; Moloch; Star-Worship; Stone and Stone-Worship; Tammuz; Teraphim; and practised Witchcraft).

WORSHIP, IDOL- - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Cooper]

Ok, now come on. While I appreciate what you are attempting to make a case for, the focus of that account was on their turning a House of Prayer in to a place of monetary gain.

If you are referring to the sacrifices, He didn't hate the sacrifices. The primary feast of the Jews, the Passover, prophetically pointed to His own sacrifice.

People traveled long distances to Jerusalem at Passover, and rather than take the animals for sacrifice with them, they may have been imperfect or die on the journey, they bought them in the Temple that was turned into a market place. The money lenders made vast prophets and so did the vendors of the animals. YES! It was all for monetary gain and that is two reasons for Jesus to be incensed. You know Christ's views on money, and to make out a dead Lamb could do what Jesus was about to do, was to make a mockery of His gift, not only to us, but to the whole world.
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[Cooper]

If you are referring to the sacrifices, He didn't hate the sacrifices. The primary feast of the Jews, the Passover, prophetically pointed to His own sacrifice.

Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. (Isaiah 1:13)

Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. (Deu 12:31 KJV)

Isaiah 1:11 NKJV "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, Or of lambs or goats.

God abhors sacrifice. Do not contradict the Almighty.

Animal and human sacrifice is paganism and that is what the Israelites were, pagans.
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[Rita]

It's a difficult issue for the literalist interpretation. My explanation would be that humans wrote the Bible; the Hebrews had a distorted view of God back then. That explanation does not work if someone believes that every word in the Bible is equivalent to God's words. The only explanation I can see would be that genocide is not as bad as modern people believe it is; therefore, Hitler was not that bad of a guy compared to the literalist view of God. I may get attacked even for suggesting such a thing, but what other explanation is there? We just don't understand God's purpose for ordering genocide? It leaves us with the notion that genocide is not all that bad.

Hi Matt,
I tend to have another prospective. We know that God is unchanging and we know that the flood was not brought about just for the sake of it, we know it impacted God. So any loss of life impacts him. We equally know that God is the creator of life, he values it. He sent his son to die for mankind. The over all story through scripture is one of a God who is all knowing, a God that had a plan for ultimate redemption , a God who can use any situation. So, even though I do not understand the reason for some things in the OT , God knows the much bigger plan that is unfolding within the spiritual realm and here on earth. People in OT times often went to war and often killed everyone regardless of gender or age. The difference with Gods people is that they acted with Gods permission ( when they didn’t they had to face the consequences ) He is not bound by the ‘ do not murder ‘ because he is the creator , he is God. The commandment is giving to us as a reminder that we do not have the right to take another persons life deliberately. Cultural norms were so different back then, most of us don’t live in violent environments so therefore we cannot relate to cultural norms where violence was all around. Land was fought for all the time.
God is sovereign and is all knowing, so questions can arise within any genocide , why did he allow his own people to face that in the Second World War, why does he allow so many Christians to suffer in China, or to face beheadings , the simple reality is that we see such a small part of the bigger picture and spiritual war that is unfolding. However God is all knowing and knows how it all fits together - that’s what I trust in.
Rita

 

[Cooper]

Hi Matt,
I tend to have another prospective. We know that God is unchanging and we know that the flood was not brought about just for the sake of it, we know it impacted God. So any loss of life impacts him. We equally know that God is the creator of life, he values it. He sent his son to die for mankind. The over all story through scripture is one of a God who is all knowing, a God that had a plan for ultimate redemption , a God who can use any situation. So, even though I do not understand the reason for some things in the OT , God knows the much bigger plan that is unfolding within the spiritual realm and here on earth. People in OT times often went to war and often killed everyone regardless of gender or age. The difference with Gods people is that they acted with Gods permission ( when they didn’t they had to face the consequences ) He is not bound by the ‘ do not murder ‘ because he is the creator , he is God. The commandment is giving to us as a reminder that we do not have the right to take another persons life deliberately. Cultural norms were so different back then, most of us don’t live in violent environments so therefore we cannot relate to cultural norms where violence was all around. Land was fought for all the time.
God is sovereign and is all knowing, so questions can arise within any genocide , why did he allow his own people to face that in the Second World War, why does he allow so many Christians to suffer in China, or to face beheadings , the simple reality is that we see such a small part of the bigger picture and spiritual war that is unfolding. However God is all knowing and knows how it all fits together - that’s what I trust in.
Rita

Do you not think that if God wanted to destroy the Cainanites, he could have done it very easily himself, by pestilence earthquake or other means without condemning the Israelites to hell by telling them to commit mass murder. Remember only two of the original people entered the promised land, and also remember God got them out of Egypt by pestilence etc, without them lifting a finger, even getting them over the Red Sea.
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[Rita]

Do you not think that if God wanted to destroy the Cainanites, he could have done it very easily by pestilence earthquake or other means without condemning the Israelites to hell by telling them to commit mass murder. Remember only two of the original people entered the promised land, and also remember God got them out of Egypt by pestilence etc, without them lifting a finger, even getting them over the Red Sea.
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Sorry but I was explaining to Matt how I see things at this moment in time, I do not believe they were condemned to hell. Not being funny but your argument is mute in context of the history of Gods people. Of course God could have ‘ defeated ‘ all the nations that were in the way of the Israelites through sickness and other means, but there is enough evidence throughout the OT of God people going into battle and taking cities In physical ways. Often it was about them trusting God and not fearing their enemies. They had to learn obedience, hence why many of them did not make it into the promised land. Each time they rebelled they had to learn........
In many respects it’s a picture of fighting our enemies, there are many different ways of doing so, but we have to follow Gods lead and trust. I don’t believe the people did nothing in Egypt, they prayed, Moses interceded and they had to act on what they were instructed to do ( Passover ) and going across the Red Sea. They didn’t just sit back and do nothing.
I don’t doubt God could have done things differently, but as far as I can see He chose to do things the way he did .....
Rita

 

[Cooper]

Sorry but I was explaining to Matt how I see things at this moment in time, I do not believe they were condemned to hell. Not being funny but your argument is mute in context of the history of Gods people. Of course God could have ‘ defeated ‘ all the nations that were in the way of the Israelites through sickness and other means, but there is enough evidence throughout the OT of God people going into battle and taking cities In physical ways. Often it was about them trusting God and not fearing their enemies. They had to learn obedience, hence why many of them did not make it into the promised land. Each time they rebelled they had to learn........
In many respects it’s a picture of fighting our enemies, there are many different ways of doing so, but we have to follow Gods lead and trust. I don’t believe the people did nothing in Egypt, they prayed, Moses interceded and they had to act on what they were instructed to do ( Passover ) and going across the Red Sea. They didn’t just sit back and do nothing.
I don’t doubt God could have done things differently, but as far as I can see He chose to do things the way he did .....
Rita

Well, you have your view, fair enough and if you think God was teaching them a lesson about obedience, then again fair enough. There is no doubt God wanted them out of Egypt and into the promised land and God enabled it to happen painlessly in the beginning. As for the Israeilites, it is such a shame they turned to other gods, making them a disobedient people, as is well recorded, and they never learnt their lesson being the stiffknecked people they are, and neither have they learnt their lesson to this day. It is such a shame they did not follow God the whole time. The promised land is less than a months walk I understand. They could have shaken hands with their cousins and settled in peacefully. My God is not a God of war but their god is, and their god is the god of one nation not the God of the whole world like the true God is. Fancy killing their kinsfolk who Joseph and his family left 400 years earlier. As for the Caananites being wicked, there was no one more wicked than the Israeilites.

Staying on topic, here we have the perfect example of the Old Testament God of war being different from the God of the New Testament who is the Prince of Peace.
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[Rita]

@Cooper , just to give some context. I have never even considered or heard of the views you have, so I am mulling that over, along with looking at the links you and @WaterSong posted. At the moment it doesn’t sit right, but I don’t just simply disguard things on that basis alone.
Rita

 

[Rita]

@CooperI don’t want to derail this thread but I have to ask how you align the Passover sacrifice and Abrahams sacrifice of Isaac to your assumptions that this was following a pagan way, and not a Godly one.
The plagues ect were clearly from God and also the instructions to sacrifice and place the blood over the door frame . If, as you believe, the sacrifices were a pagan thing then it would mean The Lord was also following them. Just curious as I give this some thought. Rita

 

[Cooper]

@CooperI don’t want to derail this thread but I have to ask how you align the Passover sacrifice and Abrahams sacrifice of Isaac to your assumptions that this was following a pagan way, and not a Godly one.
The plagues ect were clearly from God and also the instructions to sacrifice and place the blood over the door frame . If, as you believe, the sacrifices were a pagan thing then it would mean The Lord was also following them. Just curious as I give this some thought. Rita

“I have to ask how you align the Passover sacrifice and Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac to your assumptions that this was following a pagan way, and not a Godly one.” (Barbara)

Quite simply sacrifice is a pagan custom common across the ancient world. Abraham came from Ur of the Chaldees, where child sacrifice was normal, so it would not come as a great surprise to him. The depth of Abraham’s commitment to God is shown by his willingness to obey God even at the cost of his own son's life, and terrible sadness to him. Here we have a man of great faith in God, a faith that he was prepared to put into action and as we know “works are the evidence of our faith.”

I understand why the Jews celebrate Passover, but I do not know why they offer sacrifices, except it was the done thing followed by celebration. Singing and dancing, making merry and all kinds of whoring. The God of the Jews YHWH commanded it but the LORD tells us to make a sacrifice of our heart.

Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. (Isaiah 1:13)

Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters, they have burnt in the fire to their gods. (Deu 12:31 KJV)

Isaiah 1:11 NKJV “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?” Says the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, Or of lambs or goats.

1 Samuel 15:22 NKJV So Samuel said: “Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed, is than the fat of rams.

Psa 40:6 Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.

I see God testing Abraham according to the custom of the day and preventing it after Abraham proved his willingness by providing a substitute, a type of Christ, and I ask myself, if we should also put aside the things of the modern world and sacrifice ourselves to the Lord in obedience to Him in grateful thanks for His sacrifice, rather than following the customs of the world.
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[Hidden In Him]

Good link. Have you seen this?

Is Lucifer the God of Judaism
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Oh brother, LoL.

Cooper, if you subscribe to this sort of stuff, you are adhering to blatantly Luciferian thought. Albert Pike was one of the most prominent and influential Luciferians of the last two centuries. Why get your thought from people who worshipped Lucifer? Shouldn't that be a clue right there that you're going to be getting false information?

From your source:

DEMONOLOGY
The secret of the ancient Egyptians, and their modern disciples, the Freemasons, is the art of demonology for gaining power--mainly through the devil, Jehovah. In the Royal Arch degree, the Freemason " acknowledge that the devil, in the guise of Jahbuhlun, is his sacred Lord," - the name Jahbuhlun being a "composite of Jahweh, Baal, and Osiris."... Albert Pike discusses the Cabalistic/Masonic/ significance of IAHOVAH in great lengths in Morals & Dogma (P.66, 213, 401, 467, 519).

 

[Rita]

So your telling me that you believe God would have encouraged Abraham to use a pagan custom as a test of faith- seriously !!!!
Sorry your Passover explanation does not really confirm your point to me.
Thank you for answering my questions though.
Rita

 

[Hidden In Him]

People traveled long distances to Jerusalem at Passover, and rather than take the animals for sacrifice with them, they may have been imperfect or die on the journey, they bought them in the Temple that was turned into a market place. The money lenders made vast prophets and so did the vendors of the animals. YES! It was all for monetary gain and that is two reasons for Jesus to be incensed. You know Christ's views on money, and to make out a dead Lamb could do what Jesus was about to do, was to make a mockery of His gift, not only to us, but to the whole world.

Cooper! Jesus was described by Paul as our Passover. Now why would he associate Him with such a thing if it were evil?

Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. (Isaiah 1:13)

Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. (Deu 12:31 KJV)

Isaiah 1:11 NKJV "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, Or of lambs or goats.

God abhors sacrifice. Do not contradict the Almighty.

Animal and human sacrifice is paganism and that is what the Israelites were, pagans.

Already responded to this argument.

 

[Cooper]

So your telling me that you believe God would have encouraged Abraham to use a pagan custom as a test of faith- seriously !!!!
Sorry your Passover explanation does not really confirm your point to me.
Thank you for answering my questions though.
Rita

Jesus was the lamb, and those who crucified him were unbelieving pagans.
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[Cooper]

Oh brother, LoL.

Cooper, if you subscribe to this sort of stuff, you are adhering to blatantly Luciferian thought. Albert Pike was one of the most prominent and influential Luciferians of the last two centuries. Why get your thought from people who worshipped Lucifer? Shouldn't that be a clue right there that you're going to be getting false information?

From your source:

DEMONOLOGY
The secret of the ancient Egyptians, and their modern disciples, the Freemasons, is the art of demonology for gaining power--mainly through the devil, Jehovah. In the Royal Arch degree, the Freemason " acknowledge that the devil, in the guise of Jahbuhlun, is his sacred Lord"--the name Jahbulun being a "composite of Jahweh, Baal, and Osiris." He chants "Jah-buh-lun, Jah-buh-lun, Jah-buh-lun, Je-hov-ah" (Texe Marrs, Codex Magica, Ch. 4). Albert Pike discusses the Cabalistic/Masonic significance of IAHOVAH in great length in Morals & Dogma (66, 213, 401, 467, 519).

Go to the Bible for demonology.
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[Cooper]

Cooper! Jesus was described by Paul as our Passover. Now why would he associate Him with such a thing if it were evil?

The perfect lamb was killed by evil people.
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[Cooper]

Judging by the reaction, I think I hit the nail on the head.
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