Your thoughts on TEN verses

[OzSpen]

You speak in riddles. Riddles is the name.

Please provide me with a link that demonstrates that questioning the length of your OP after you have not received a response in 10 weeks is the use of a 'riddles' logical fallacy. This link will provide me with an explanation of how my comment at #4 was a 'riddles' logical fallacy.

 

[ATP]

Please provide me with a link that demonstrates that questioning the length of your OP after you have not received a response in 10 weeks is the use of a 'riddles' logical fallacy. This link will provide me with an explanation of how my comment at #4 was a 'riddles' logical fallacy.

I don't need to, the proof is there. There is a fallacy in your argument within the context. I asked you what your thoughts were on OSAS, and you didn't answer. Red herring brother.

 

[OzSpen]

I don't need to, the proof is there. There is a fallacy in your argument within the context. I asked you what your thoughts were on OSAS, and you didn't answer. Red herring brother.

My answer to your 10-week long, no reply to your post was that to me your OP was way too long and you needed to break it down into smaller segments to which we can reply. So you did not see this as constructive feedback for you to address what was happening to cause a 10-week absence of responses to your LONG post.

I pointed this out to you, but you didn't accept what I wrote, but proceeded to give your promotion of OSAS, which was your red herring logical fallacy to what I wrote in #4.

Since you don't seem to be teachable, I'll say Bye, Bye on this topic.

Oz

 

[Butch5]

That's right, Butch. They apply to Believers. If one believes the 24 verses pertain to believers there is no reason to refute them. They certainly do not apply to non-believers.

Heb_3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb_3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb_4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Now, if this thread is about proving the security of the unbeliever, I don't believe in the security of the unbeliever and I think the scriptures are clear on that.

Axehead

Hi Axehead,

I agree! The difference is sometimes overlooked. The issue of OSAS is not about what God does, but rather what man does. I don't think anyone doubts God's ability to save. The question is, will man be faithful to God?

You're quoting the OT before resurrection though. There was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT.

You're focusing on your own works to get you into the kingdom and not the finished work on the cross.

John 19:30 NIV When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

No, I' showing what Paul was alluding to. Paul is the one who alluded to the passage in Joshua, not me. A good bit of the book of Hebrews is about not turning away from God. Paul when was saying that God would not forsake them he alludes to the passage in Joshua which shows that if one is not obedient to God, He will depart. That's the context in which he expected the Hebrews, to which he was writing, to understand that God would not forsake them. When Paul said that both he and his readers had the holy Spirit.

What is the finished work on the cross? I hear people say this quite often yet it's usually not defined. I don't see how it could be salvation since the resurrection hadn't occurred yet. without the resurrection Christians would simply perish as Paul said.

16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (1Co 15:16-18 NKJ)

 

[FHII]

Something's not right when about 2/3 of a thread is an argument about whether a post is too long.

Seems to me that the logical response to a post that's too long for you is to nit respond at all.

But please continue... it is entertaining.

 

[ATP]

The issue of OSAS is not about what God does, but rather what man does. The question is, will man be faithful to God?

You actually have that backwards. The issue of OSAS has everything to do with what God does and what man is unable to do. And that is to die sinless on a cross.

I don't think anyone doubts God's ability to save.

You're not doubting God's ability to save, rather you're doubting His Grace and His sanctification throughout your life.

No, I' showing what Paul was alluding to. Paul is the one who alluded to the passage in Joshua, not me. A good bit of the book of Hebrews is about not turning away from God. Paul when was saying that God would not forsake them he alludes to the passage in Joshua which shows that if one is not obedient to God, He will depart. That's the context in which he expected the Hebrews, to which he was writing, to understand that God would not forsake them. When Paul said that both he and his readers had the holy Spirit.

Joshua is in the OT before resurrection, before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Hebrews is a Jewish book in general and focuses on non-believing Jews in Israel.

What is the finished work on the cross? I hear people say this quite often yet it's usually not defined.

The finished work on the cross is in relation to Jesus dying for all sins, past, present and future in relation to forgiveness.

It is by His blood in which we are kept. Notice Col 2:14-15 mentions the cross twice.

Rom 4:7-8 NIV “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Col 2:13-15 NIV When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

- ATP

 

[Butch5]

You actually have that backwards. The issue of OSAS has everything to do with what God does and what man is unable to do. And that is to die sinless on a cross.


You're not doubting God's ability to save, rather you're doubting His Grace and His sanctification throughout your life.


Joshua is in the OT before resurrection, before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Hebrews is a Jewish book in general and focuses on non-believing Jews in Israel.


The finished work on the cross is in relation to Jesus dying for all sins, past, present and future in relation to forgiveness.

It is by His blood in which we are kept. Notice Col 2:14-15 mentions the cross twice.

Rom 4:7-8 NIV “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Col 2:13-15 NIV When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

- ATP

You actually have that backwards. The issue of OSAS has everything to do with what God does and what man is unable to do. And that is to die sinless on a cross.

Actually, I don't. What you've described here is salvation, not whether or not it can lost.

You're not doubting God's ability to save, rather you're doubting His Grace and His sanctification throughout your life.

No, I'm just not assuming it's unconditional, especially when Scripture says it's not.

Joshua is in the OT before resurrection, before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Hebrews is a Jewish book in general and focuses on non-believing Jews in Israel.

Holy brethren who have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant are not unbelieving Jews.

The finished work on the cross is in relation to Jesus dying for all sins, past, present and future in relation to forgiveness.

It is by His blood in which we are kept. Notice Col 2:14-15 mentions the cross twice.

Rom 4:7-8 NIV “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Col 2:13-15 NIV When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

There are a couple of things here. One is that it is only past sins that are forgiven, that is why John says,

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1Jo 1:9 NKJ)

What do you see in Colossians 2 that indicates that it is Christ who keeps one or that salvation cannot be lost?

 

[ATP]

Holy brethren who have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant are not unbelieving Jews.

I believe the entire Hebrews book is about non believing Jews. It has Israel and Jews scattered everywhere in its passages and its context.

Even Hebrews 6:4-8 NIV is in relation too..
Matt 13:21 NIV The Root, Matt 13:1-23 NIV and Rom 11:11-24 NIV in regards to the Farmer / Crop / Seed / Soil / Thorns and Thistles / Root

Apostates are not born again Christians.
Hebrews 10:26-31 is explained best here..http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-10-26.html

Question: "Does Hebrews 10:26 mean that a believer can lose salvation?"

Answer: “For if we are willfully sinning after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice concerning sins.” Hebrews 10:26-29 warns against the sin of apostasy. Apostasy is an intentional falling away or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, right up to the edge of saving belief, who hear and understand the Gospel, and are on the verge of saving faith, but then reject what they have learned and turn away. These are people who are perhaps even aware of their sin and even make a profession of faith. But rather than going on to spiritual maturity, their interest in Christ begins to diminish, the things of the world have more attraction to them rather than less, and eventually they lose all desire for the things of God and they turn away. The Lord illustrated these types of people in the second and third soils of Matthew 13:1-9, 18-23. These are those who “receive with joy” the things of the Lord, but who are drawn away by the cares of the world or turned off by difficulties they encounter because of Christ.

“Willful sinning” in this passage carries the idea of consciously and deliberately rejecting Christ. To know God’s way, to hear it preached, to study it, to count oneself among the faithful, and then to turn away is to become apostate. Sinning willfully carries with it the idea of sinning continually and deliberately. Such a person does not sin because of ignorance, nor is he carried away by momentary temptations he is too weak to resist. The willful sinner sins because of an established way of thinking and acting which he has no desire to give up. The true believer, on the other hand, is one who lapses into sin and loses temporary fellowship with God. But he will eventually come back to God in repentance because his heavenly Father will continually woo and convict him until he can’t stay away any longer. The true apostate will continue to sin, deliberately, willingly and with abandon. John tells us that “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9).

Apostates have knowledge, but no application of that knowledge. They can be found in the presence of the light of Christ, mostly in the church, among God’s people. Judas Iscariot is the perfect example—he had knowledge but he lacked true faith. No other rejector of the truth had more or better exposure to the love and grace of God than Judas. He was part of Jesus’ inner circle of disciples, eating, sleeping, and traveling with Him for years. He saw the miracles and heard the words of God from Jesus’ very lips, from the best preacher the world has ever known, and yet he not only turned away but was instrumental in the plot to kill Jesus.

Having turned his back on the truth, and with full knowledge choosing to willfully and continually sin, the apostate is then beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins: the Lord Jesus Christ. If Christ’s sacrifice is rejected, then all hope of salvation is gone. To turn away willfully from this sacrifice leaves no sacrifice; it leaves only sin, the penalty for which is eternal death. This passage is not speaking of a believer who falls away, but rather someone who may claim to be a believer, but truly is not. Anyone who apostatizes is proving he never had genuine faith to begin with (1 John 2:19).

What do you see in Colossians 2 that indicates that it is Christ who keeps one or that salvation cannot be lost?

I see the cross in that passage. The cross is everything. Rom 4:7-8 NIV “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

 

[Butch5]

I believe the entire Hebrews book is about non believing Jews. It has Israel and Jews scattered everywhere in its passages and its context.

Even Hebrews 6:4-8 NIV is in relation too..
Matt 13:21 NIV The Root, Matt 13:1-23 NIV and Rom 11:11-24 NIV in regards to the Farmer / Crop / Seed / Soil / Thorns and Thistles / Root

Apostates are not born again Christians.
Hebrews 10:26-31 is explained best here..http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-10-26.html

Question: "Does Hebrews 10:26 mean that a believer can lose salvation?"

Answer: “For if we are willfully sinning after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice concerning sins.” Hebrews 10:26-29 warns against the sin of apostasy. Apostasy is an intentional falling away or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, right up to the edge of saving belief, who hear and understand the Gospel, and are on the verge of saving faith, but then reject what they have learned and turn away. These are people who are perhaps even aware of their sin and even make a profession of faith. But rather than going on to spiritual maturity, their interest in Christ begins to diminish, the things of the world have more attraction to them rather than less, and eventually they lose all desire for the things of God and they turn away. The Lord illustrated these types of people in the second and third soils of Matthew 13:1-9, 18-23. These are those who “receive with joy” the things of the Lord, but who are drawn away by the cares of the world or turned off by difficulties they encounter because of Christ.

“Willful sinning” in this passage carries the idea of consciously and deliberately rejecting Christ. To know God’s way, to hear it preached, to study it, to count oneself among the faithful, and then to turn away is to become apostate. Sinning willfully carries with it the idea of sinning continually and deliberately. Such a person does not sin because of ignorance, nor is he carried away by momentary temptations he is too weak to resist. The willful sinner sins because of an established way of thinking and acting which he has no desire to give up. The true believer, on the other hand, is one who lapses into sin and loses temporary fellowship with God. But he will eventually come back to God in repentance because his heavenly Father will continually woo and convict him until he can’t stay away any longer. The true apostate will continue to sin, deliberately, willingly and with abandon. John tells us that “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9).

Apostates have knowledge, but no application of that knowledge. They can be found in the presence of the light of Christ, mostly in the church, among God’s people. Judas Iscariot is the perfect example—he had knowledge but he lacked true faith. No other rejector of the truth had more or better exposure to the love and grace of God than Judas. He was part of Jesus’ inner circle of disciples, eating, sleeping, and traveling with Him for years. He saw the miracles and heard the words of God from Jesus’ very lips, from the best preacher the world has ever known, and yet he not only turned away but was instrumental in the plot to kill Jesus.

Having turned his back on the truth, and with full knowledge choosing to willfully and continually sin, the apostate is then beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins: the Lord Jesus Christ. If Christ’s sacrifice is rejected, then all hope of salvation is gone. To turn away willfully from this sacrifice leaves no sacrifice; it leaves only sin, the penalty for which is eternal death. This passage is not speaking of a believer who falls away, but rather someone who may claim to be a believer, but truly is not. Anyone who apostatizes is proving he never had genuine faith to begin with (1 John 2:19).


I see the cross in that passage. The cross is everything. Rom 4:7-8 NIV “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Firstly, I don't give any credibility to the "Got Questions" site. I have found so much error on that site that it's sad. Secondly, if you could point out where Hebrews is speaking of unbelieving Jews that would help

If the cross is everything then why did Paul say that if there is no resurrection of the dead the believers had already perished?

 

[ATP]

If the cross is everything then why did Paul say that if there is no resurrection of the dead the believers had already perished?

He is saying that if you do not believe in the resurrection, then you will not believe in what the resurrection produces.

16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (1Co 15:16-18 NKJ)

There is nothing we can do or not do to keep our salvation. Isa 64:6 NIV All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Secondly, if you could point out where Hebrews is speaking of unbelieving Jews that would help

This is an excellent source to learn more about the Jewish book..Heb 6:4-8 - http://www.rj-anderson.com/docs/hebrews.html

Hebrews 6:4-8 NIV, Matt 13:21 NIV The Root, Matt 13:1-23 NIV, Rom 11:11-24 NIV / Farmer / Crop / Seed / Soil / Thorns and Thistles / Root

 

[Butch5]

He is saying that if you do not believe in the resurrection, then you will not believe in what the resurrection produces.

16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (1Co 15:16-18 NKJ)

There is nothing we can do or not do to keep our salvation. Isa 64:6 NIV All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.


This is an excellent source to learn more about the Jewish book..Heb 6:4-8 - http://www.rj-anderson.com/docs/hebrews.html

Hebrews 6:4-8 NIV, Matt 13:21 NIV The Root, Matt 13:1-23 NIV, Rom 11:11-24 NIV / Farmer / Crop / Seed / Soil / Thorns and Thistles / Root

He said, if there is no resurrection then those who have died have perished. If the cross was everything how is it that without the resurrection dead believers had perished?

Regarding the link to Hebrews the author interprets the passage without consideration for the passages that Paul is alluding to. The author says, "This is a crisis of belief, not of action." This shows that the author hasn't considered what Paul is alluding to.

However, that link only addressed a few verses not the entire book.

 

[ATP]

He said, if there is no resurrection then those who have died have perished. If the cross was everything how is it that without the resurrection dead believers had perished?

Notice the word "if", if the dead do not rise, if Christ is not risen. He is entering into the mind of a nonbeliever. Believers believe Jesus resurrected, nonbelievers do not. Also, notice verse 17 says if Christ has not risen you are still in your sins. But Christ HAS risen, and has forgiven all sins, past, present and future Rom 8:38-39 NIV. Unbelief is also spoken here..

16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (1Co 15:16-18 NKJ)

Regarding the link to Hebrews the author interprets the passage without consideration for the passages that Paul is alluding to. The author says, "This is a crisis of belief, not of action." This shows that the author hasn't considered what Paul is alluding to.

However, that link only addressed a few verses not the entire book.

Well, the book of Hebrews and the Jews is all about unbelief. Unbelief is the center of what Israel went through back then, even now unbelief is a struggle with the Jewish people. That link is right on the money. Take a look at these verses. These verses are all in connection with each other. What do I mean when I mention Farmer, Crop, Seed, Soil, Thorns and Thistles, Root? And why is ATP bringing up these words? Hebrews 6:4-8 NIV, Matt 13:21 NIV The Root, Matt 13:1-23 NIV and Rom 11:11-24 NIV

The reason these Jews quickly fell away is because they didn't have that root of salvation. Falling away refers to apostates only, never does it refer to born again christians 1 John 3:9 NIV. Also notice that all these passages mention Farmer / Crop / Seed / Soil / Thorns and Thistles / Root...

Matt 13:21 NIV - But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Rom 11:20-23 NIV Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Matt 13:1-23 NIV - The Parable of the Sower / That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9Whoever has ears, let them hear.” 10The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, ad they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. 18“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Rom 11:11-24 NIV - Ingrafted Branches / Rom 11:11-24 NIV Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Hebrews 6:4-8 NIV It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

- ATP

 

[Axehead]

There is great security for those that are "In Christ" and abide"In Christ". In fact, no one can pluck them out of the Lord's hand.

Jesus speaking to his disciples and all who follow Him down through the ages.
John_15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John_15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

"If"...conditional word.

Are we guaranteed never to fall into unbelief and be shipwrecked?

1Ti_1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Butch5]

Notice the word "if", if the dead do not rise, if Christ is not risen. He is entering into the mind of a nonbeliever. Believers believe Jesus resurrected, nonbelievers do not. Also, notice verse 17 says if Christ has not risen you are still in your sins. But Christ HAS risen, and has forgiven all sins, past, present and future Rom 8:38-39 NIV. Unbelief is also spoken here..

16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (1Co 15:16-18 NKJ)


Well, the book of Hebrews and the Jews is all about unbelief. Unbelief is the center of what Israel went through back then, even now unbelief is a struggle with the Jewish people. That link is right on the money. Take a look at these verses. These verses are all in connection with each other. What do I mean when I mention Farmer, Crop, Seed, Soil, Thorns and Thistles, Root? And why is ATP bringing up these words? Hebrews 6:4-8 NIV, Matt 13:21 NIV The Root, Matt 13:1-23 NIV and Rom 11:11-24 NIV

The reason these Jews quickly fell away is because they didn't have that root of salvation. Falling away refers to apostates only, never does it refer to born again christians 1 John 3:9 NIV. Also notice that all these passages mention Farmer / Crop / Seed / Soil / Thorns and Thistles / Root...

Matt 13:21 NIV - But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Rom 11:20-23 NIV Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Matt 13:1-23 NIV - The Parable of the Sower / That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9Whoever has ears, let them hear.” 10The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, ad they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. 18“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Rom 11:11-24 NIV - Ingrafted Branches / Rom 11:11-24 NIV Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Hebrews 6:4-8 NIV It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

- ATP

Paul is addressing a group in the Corinthian church that was denying the resurrection. He states plainly, if the dead don't rise then they have perished. That means that there was still more after the cross.

You're bringing up all of these passages, none of which say that salvation can't be lost. You believe that doctrine and are trying to infer it from the passages you're posting.

The author of the link does not address it properly. Paul makes allusions to the OT that the author does not address. There is a reason that Paul is alluding to those passages.

As I said, there are clear passages that tell us that believers fall away. Jesus said some believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Paul said that widows under 60 were not to be allowed into the order of widows because they would grow cold against Christ, cast off their faith, received condemnation and turn aside after Satan. He said some had already done this.

9 Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man,
10 well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.
11 But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry,
12 having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not.
14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some have already turned aside after Satan. (1Ti 5:9-15 NKJ)

 

[ATP]

There is great security for those that are "In Christ" and abide"In Christ". In fact, no one can pluck them out of the Lord's hand.

Jesus speaking to his disciples and all who follow Him down through the ages.
John_15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John_15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

"If"...conditional word.

Are we guaranteed never to fall into unbelief and be shipwrecked?

1Ti_1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Good post. Yes, unbelief refers to apostates and non believing Jews, never to born again Christians.

Paul is addressing a group in the Corinthian church that was denying the resurrection. He states plainly, if the dead don't rise then they have perished. That means that there was still more after the cross.

Yes, denying the resurrection. Denying is unbelief. All it is saying is if you don't believe, if you don't believe this and that. IF IF IF. A born again Christian BELIEVES in the resurrection, this is the difference.

As I said, there are clear passages that tell us that believers fall away. Jesus said some believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Paul said that widows under 60 were not to be allowed into the order of widows because they would grow cold against Christ, cast off their faith, received condemnation and turn aside after Satan. He said some had already done this.

9 Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man,
10 well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.
11 But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry,
12 having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not.
14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some have already turned aside after Satan. (1Ti 5:9-15 NKJ)

Verse 12 has nothing to do with faith of salvation. It has to do with marriage and non marriage events and vows.They had pledged "their first faith" to Christ as presbyteress widows; they now wish to transfer their faith to a husband. It also does not mention if they are born again or nonbelievers. If these women were born again, and verse 12 says they are condemned then God would be going against His Word.

Rom 8:1 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

You're bringing up all of these passages, none of which say that salvation can't be lost.

I have 24 passages that say otherwise. Your difficulty results in the term "apostate" and "falling away". You say a born again Christian can stop believing. How can that be when the Holy Spirit never leaves us. The Holy Spirit that is in our body does not come and go as He pleases. Salvation does not work that way. By saying that you are putting God's grace in a box. These conflicts are blurring your vision brother. Believing only comes once...

These words describe eternal language..included / believed / marked / seal / promised / guaranteeing / inheritance / redemption

1. included in Christ
2. When you believed
3. marked in him with a seal
4. promised Holy Spirit
5. guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

- ATP

 

[Axehead]

Is this thread about the Security of Believers or really about if a Believer can fall away or not?

One that is believing and is abiding in Christ has wonderful security. The Word doesn't express much hope for one that is unbelieving and not abiding in Christ.

Only the Lord knows "them that are His". What else needs to be discussed?

2Tim_2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Tim_2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Tim_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


I don't believe in the Security of the Unbeliever.

 

[Butch5]

Good post. Yes, unbelief refers to apostates and non believing Jews, never to born again Christians.


Yes, denying the resurrection. Denying is unbelief. All it is saying is if you don't believe, if you don't believe this and that. IF IF IF. A born again Christian BELIEVES in the resurrection, this is the difference.


Verse 12 has nothing to do with faith of salvation. It has to do with marriage and non marriage events and vows.They had pledged "their first faith" to Christ as presbyteress widows; they now wish to transfer their faith to a husband. It also does not mention if they are born again or nonbelievers. If these women were born again, and verse 12 says they are condemned then God would be going against His Word.

Rom 8:1 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.


I have 24 passages that say otherwise. Your difficulty results in the term "apostate" and "falling away". You say a born again Christian can stop believing. How can that be when the Holy Spirit never leaves us. The Holy Spirit that is in our body does not come and go as He pleases. Salvation does not work that way. By saying that you are putting God's grace in a box. These conflicts are blurring your vision brother. Believing only comes once...

These words describe eternal language..included / believed / marked / seal / promised / guaranteeing / inheritance / redemption

1. included in Christ
2. When you believed
3. marked in him with a seal
4. promised Holy Spirit
5. guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

- ATP

Yes, denying the resurrection. Denying is unbelief. All it is saying is if you don't believe, if you don't believe this and that. IF IF IF. A born again Christian BELIEVES in the resurrection, this is the difference.

It doesn't matter. What Paul says is, if there is no resurrection from the dead believers have perished. Whether someone believes or not if there is no resurrection from the dead the believers have perished.

Verse 12 has nothing to do with faith of salvation. It has to do with marriage and non marriage events and vows.They had pledged "their first faith" to Christ as presbyteress widows; they now wish to transfer their faith to a husband. It also does not mention if they are born again or nonbelievers. If these women were born again, and verse 12 says they are condemned then God would be going against His Word.

Rom 8:1 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

This is why I don't usually have this discussion anymore. Paul said, they grow cold towards Christ, not husbands or husbands they don't have. He said they grow cold against Christ, receive condemnation and eventually turn aside after Satan. He said some had already done that. The order of widows was within the church so they were believers.

Their turning doesn't effect God promises. God's promises are to those who are followers. To simply believe in one's mind doesn't give one the promises. Even the demons believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God. What Paul has describe these widows as doing are things that are no longer following Christ.

There is a gross misunderstanding in Christianity today that says if one simply believes they are saved. This couldn't be farther from the truth.

I have 24 passages that say otherwise. Your difficulty results in the term "apostate" and "falling away". You say a born again Christian can stop believing. How can that be when the Holy Spirit never leaves us. The Holy Spirit that is in our body does not come and go as He pleases. Salvation does not work that way. By saying that you are putting God's grace in a box. These conflicts are blurring your vision brother. Believing only comes once...

These words describe eternal language..included / believed / marked / seal / promised / guaranteeing / inheritance / redemption

1. included in Christ
2. When you believed
3. marked in him with a seal
4. promised Holy Spirit
5. guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

You don't have 24 passages. There are no passages that say a person cannot lose salvation. That idea is inferred. This translation of Eph 1:13-14 is simply misleading. The Holy Spirit is a deposit or down payment.The English word guarantee does have the meaning of a deposit or down payment. However, it is not used that way very much anymore and as such the NIV shouldn't translate it that way. Today that word guarantee has taken on the idea that something will definitely happen. The Greek word "arrhabon" doesn't have that meaning at all. So when the NIV says, " the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" it means the Holy Spirit is a deposit on the our inheritance, but some Christians don't understand it that way, they understand it as the holy Spirit will make sure that one gets the inheritance.

 

[Axehead]

The only kind of Christian I am aware of is one that abides in Christ. Are there others?

John 15

Is there another kind of Christian other than one that loves God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength and neighbor as themself?
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Is there another kind of Christian other than one that departs from iniquity?
2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[ATP]

Is this thread about the Security of Believers or really about if a Believer can fall away or not?

It's about if a believer can lose his salvation and go to the Lake of Fire.

..

Lemme ask you, what is the difference between relationship with God vs. fellowship with God.

For example, why would God adopt us as children and then send us to the Lake of fire.

That's not what adoption is, right?

 

[Axehead]

It's about if a believer can lose his salvation and go to the Lake of Fire.


Lemme ask you, what is the difference between relationship with God vs. fellowship with God.

For example, why would God adopt us as children and then send us to the Lake of fire.

That's not what adoption is, right?

So, you want to distinguish between relationship and fellowship with Jesus? Sounds like a doctrine that will allow one to be quite fleshly.

God's word is not like the IRS regulations, there are NO loopholes. But, man loves to take His word and codify it, making complex religious systems.

It's about if a believer can lose his salvation and go to the Lake of Fire.


Lemme ask you, what is the difference between relationship with God vs. fellowship with God.

For example, why would God adopt us as children and then send us to the Lake of fire.

That's not what adoption is, right?

So, you want to distinguish between relationship and fellowship with Jesus? Sounds like a doctrine that will allow one to be quite fleshly.

God's word is not like the IRS regulations, there are NO loopholes. But, man loves to take His word and codify it, making complex religious systems.