ATP said:
I would disagree on this. I would submit that even the devil knows the Lord, accepting the Lord as Savior is another story. Rom 1:18-32 NIV.
Well, it all comes down to God's Grace. Do you believe the creator of the universe and His Grace is sufficient for you and will never leave you?
Everything has to be understood in context. I believe it is taking the passages from their context that allows this doctrine to continue. For instance, you alluded to the passage that says God will never leaves you.
KJV Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Heb 13:5 KJV)
People take this passage and interpret it in a vacuum. However, notice Paul said, "for he hath said". He quoting something from the OT. Here is what he is referring to.
KJV Joshua 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying, 2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel. 3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses. 4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast. 5
There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. 6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them. {unto this...: or, thou shalt cause this people to inherit the land, etc} 7 Only
be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest. {prosper: or, do wisely} 8 {ha
This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.ve...: or, do wisely} 9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest. (Jos 1:1 KJV)
Here God tells Joshua that He will not fail nor forsake him. He tells Joshua to make sure to keep the Law. However, a little while later we find,
NKJ Joshua 7:1 But the children of Israel committed a trespass regarding the accursed things, for Achan the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi1, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed things; so the anger of the LORD burned against the children of Israel.
2 Now Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which is beside Beth Aven, on the east side of Bethel, and spoke to them, saying, "Go up and spy out the country." So the men went up and spied out Ai.
3 And they returned to Joshua and said to him, "Do not let all the people go up, but let about two or three thousand men go up and attack Ai. Do not weary all the people there, for the people of Ai are few."
4 So about three thousand men went up there from the people, but they fled before the men of Ai.
5 And the men of Ai struck down about thirty-six men, for they chased them from before the gate as far as Shebarim, and struck them down on the descent; therefore the hearts of the people melted and became like water.
6 Then Joshua tore his clothes, and fell to the earth on his face before the ark of the LORD until evening, he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust on their heads.
7 And Joshua said, "Alas, Lord GOD, why have You brought this people over the Jordan at all-- to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? Oh, that we had been content, and dwelt on the other side of the Jordan!
8 "O Lord, what shall I say when Israel turns its back before its enemies?
9 "For the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land will hear it, and surround us, and cut off our name from the earth. Then what will You do for Your great name?"
10
So the LORD said to Joshua: "Get up! Why do you lie thus on your face?
11
"Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed My covenant which I commanded them. For
they have even taken some of the accursed things, and have both stolen and deceived; and they have also put it among their own stuff.
12 "Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they have become doomed to destruction.
Neither will I be with you anymore, unless you destroy the accursed from among you.
13 "Get up, sanctify the people, and say,`Sanctify yourselves for tomorrow, because thus says the LORD God of Israel: "There is an accursed thing in your midst, O Israel; you cannot stand before your enemies until you take away the accursed thing from among you."
(Jos 7:1-13 NKJ)
God had told Joshua that He would not forsake him yet when Israel sinned against God was not with them and He told Joshua, unless you remove the accursed thing I will not be with you any more. So, we see that God being with Joshua was not unconditional. If Joshua and the Israelites obeyed God would be with them if they did not He would not be with them. This is what Paul is referring to when he says God say He would never forsake them. It's not an unconditional statement as many Christians like to believe. God is with the believer as long as the believe is with God.
ATP said:
I would disagree on this. I would submit that even the devil knows the Lord, accepting the Lord as Savior is another story. Rom 1:18-32 NIV.
Well, it all comes down to God's Grace. Do you believe the creator of the universe and His Grace is sufficient for you and will never leave you?
How can you disagree with that statement? How can someone fall from a building they've never been in?
Accepting the Lord? The Scriptures tell us that one must believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that believing one might be saved? The Devil know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.