So, are Daniel 7:25 and Amos 8:11-12 related in prophecy?

[Randy Kluth]

Wow, tough crowd!!!

I think the difficulty is that you've obscured your purpose from the start, asking for confirmation for things that we, the readers, wouldn't know we're agreeing to. So now you've admitted that you believe the Holy Spirit is moving on modern teachers to teach using new words for the original Christian text. That sounds a little disturbing to me!

Since I don't want to misrepresent you, and admit that I may not be getting you, I've asked for clarification. What I get is more confusion.

I agree with Cady--you're very confusing. It may or may not be a "tough crowd." But the point is, you need to be a little more up front from the start, so there isn't this winding path intended to lead others to agree with some secret pre-conclusion.

So please be clear. Is your point that you think the Holy Spirit is, in modern times, *changing* the English translation from the original Greek text? Or, are you saying that the Holy Spirit is leading teachers to more properly interpret into English the original Greek text? You leave me bewildered!

 

[The Parson]

I told you why this was a bad idea. You didn't believe me.

Well, don't anyone fuss at me if the scriptures I quote throughout my posts in the forum reflect my memories.

 

[The Parson]

So please be clear. Is your point that you think the Holy Spirit is, in modern times, *changing* the English translation from the original Greek text? Or, are you saying that the Holy Spirit is leading teachers to more properly interpret into English the original Greek text? You leave me bewildered!

No, but I do believe it's God allowing these things to take place...

 

[The Parson]

The Mandella Effect is a Psyop

Several times I'm mentioned I don't give any never mind to the mandela effect. I believe it's prophecy. Clear and simple, to coin a phrase.

 

[David H.]

Several times I'm mentioned I don't give any never mind to the mandela effect.

I Did not read all the comments (100+) so sorry if i missed this. I just was sharing my experience with you.

I believe it's prophecy

Explain what you mean by this?

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, but I do believe it's God allowing these things to take place...

Then please explain *why* you think God is doing these specific things? And please explain in enough detail so that readers can know the scenario you're trying to describe? Thanks.

I've seen comments that venture into the realm of eschatology. Since that is my forte, I'd love to hear if you think this is a last-day revival thing, a rising tide of Antichrist thing, or?

 

[Waiting on him]

Saying every human turns into Christ is as wishful thinking as eating communion with the same expectation. Does that mean in Paradise we are no longer individuals, but only one body sitting next to God on the throne?

Revelation 7 gives us a different reality than the one you imagine.

We sit with Him in His throne.
Revelation 3:21 KJV
[21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[Brakelite]

You might want to read The Revision Revised by John William Burgon (https://www.amazon.ca/Revision-Revised-Refutation-Westcott-Theory) It will open your eyes. And he has many other books on the subject. The quotation below is from Amazon.

The Revision Revised: A Refutation of Westcott and Hort's False Greek Text and Theory Paperback – Feb. 28 2008 by Dean John William Burgon (Author)

"The importance of this book cannot be underestimated [sic] [overestimated]. There is no one book that exposes Westcott and Hort's false Greek Text and false Greek theory behind that text any more thoroughly and convincingly than The Revision Revised. Dean Burgon defends the traditional text of the New Testament. He shows clearly the defects in both manuscript "B" (Vaticanus) and manuscript "Aleph" (Sinaiticus). It is very important to see the arguments contained in this historic volume because virtually the same Greek text of Westcott and Hort (1881) FORMS THE BASIS OF ALMOST ALL OF THE MODERN VERSIONS AND PERVERSIONS. See the Appendix, pages 2-3."

And there have been other books written by other scholars confirming Burgon's views.
Adobe Acrobat

 

[Brakelite]

How about applying this to yourself and your false theology? You deny the Pre-Tribulation Rapture do you not? You deny a literal Kingdom of God on earth, do you not? So who is the wolf here?

Other Bible scholars fail to see a pre trib rapture also. Don't pretend it's a cut and dried doctrine set in stone. As the a literal kingdom, it astonishes me that Christians believe this earth will actually be inhabited during the millennium. Tell you what. You're welcome to it.

 

[Timtofly]

Then please explain *why* you think God is doing these specific things? And please explain in enough detail so that readers can know the scenario you're trying to describe? Thanks.

I've seen comments that venture into the realm of eschatology. Since that is my forte, I'd love to hear if you think this is a last-day revival thing, a rising tide of Antichrist thing, or?

I thought from the verses quoted, it is going to be used to seal the unbelief and deception some are in because they listen to false spirits instead of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

We sit with Him in His throne.
Revelation 3:21 KJV
[21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

There are also many thrones. Revelation 20:4. Revelation 4:4

"And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

 

[Oseas]

How can the Antichrist be a "Christian church"? The Bible tells us that he is "the Man of Sin". One individual who will control the whole world. Not an apostate church. And there cannot be a bogus church "within" the Body of Christ for the simple reason that it is the Body of Christ -- meaning genuine children of God joined spiritually to their Head, who is Christ.

Acts 20:29-31 KJV
[29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. [30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. [31] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
And please remember that just because it doesn’t fit your eschatological order doesn’t necessarily mean it’s out of context.

The Church of the Lord JESUS X The Church of the Devil

Church of the Lord JESUS

JESUS named 12 apostles to preach the Gospel of God's Kingdom, these twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. JESUS gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

JESUS said: I will build my Church;

JESUS said: The gates of hell will not prevail. Hallelujah!;

The Church, the body of JESUS, began to be formed after His death, it is evident, as He said: I will build my Church. The Church of the Lord started on the Day of Pentecost, fifty days after Easter, when Jesus died and rose again. The book of Acts details the beginning of the Church and its miraculous spread through the power of the Holy Spirit. About 10 days after Jesus ascended back to heaven (Acts 1: 9), the Holy Spirit was poured out on 120 of Jesus' followers who waited and prayed, grounded in the promises of JESUS (Acts 1:15 and 2 : 1-4).


Before His ascension, JESUS said to His disciples: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matt.28:18-20.


JESUS provided great growth for his Church through the Apostles and disciples, confirming the preaching of the true believers with signs and wonders that followed with the preaching of the Gospel (without Him nothing would be done).


Since then, the headquarter of the Roman Empire was troubled, and shuddered, and shaken, and shocked under the power of God through His Word preached by the Apostles and disciples of JESUS, and by emergent churches, mainly those seven churches mentioned in Revelation; the only exception was the apostate church of Rome, that was denominated Catholic church, linked to the devilish Roman Empire, the fourth satanic kingdom strong as iron-Daniel 2:v.40, as is showed in the statue of Nebuchadnezzar.



The pseudo christian church - church of Devil - The body of Satan

Since then Satan, as an angel of light, developed in parallel an imitation of the Lord's Church within the Roman Empire, and the first step was to corrupt the Church of the Lord JESUS that there was in Rome; his plan was a success, and so he created a Ministry, and constituted Ministers - ministers of Satan - and named them as "apostles". - 2 Corinthians 11:v.13-15


So, Satan, by his spirit, gave birth to an imitation of the true Church of the Lord, and Satan founded his "christian" church, yeah, his "christian" church, a false christian church, now his body, and denominated it by the name of Catholic church; so, definitively the former Lord's Church in Rome, which apostatized of the faith and fell in the hands of the Devil by complete, became the Great Whore, the cradle of Antichrist among the primitive Churches, leaded and guided by the Beast of sea - the Pope, the Papacy, "et caterva", and later was called Roman Catholic Church, it until today. THUS, the "gates of the hell" said by JESUS was opened, to prevent the expansion of the Lord's churches.


If we compare the growth of the "christian" church of Devil with the true Christian Church of the LORD, we can see that the false "christian" church of Devil, the body of Satan, grew much much more than the Church of our LORD Jesus. It because they killed the Apostles of the LORD besides countless disciples of JESUS, and above all because it would be impossible to compete with the opened gates of hell, the Roman Catholic Church, the Great Whore, leaded and guided by Satan.

But there is a sharp Sword, the Sword of the Lord, and with this Sword one of the seven heads of the false and satanic "christian" church of Rome, called Roman Catholic Church, will be wounded to death.



In the name of the LORD Jesus Christ

If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1 Cor.14:v.8

The Word is GOD

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well, don't anyone fuss at me if the scriptures I quote throughout my posts in the forum reflect my memories.

If you don't mind, I would like to relate my experience to you and hopefully it will encourage you and bless you. Ever since I became a believer I always loved reading and studying the Bible. (Not bragging, its just part of the story.) One day, I began to notice when my pastor would mention a Greek word and what I typically meant to the Greek people. So one day, I got the bright idea of creating my own translation of Paul's epistle to the Romans. And here I must admit that my enthusiasm and dedication was measured against my misconception about Bible translation. In my view, I thought Bible translation amounted to a simple decode between languages. And so I set out to "decode" the book of Romans from Greek into English. I bought a Greek interlinear and a Greek Lexicon and I eventually created a word-for-word "translation" of the book of Romans.

I sat down with my professor friend, who knows the Greek language and reads the Bible in Greek and bless his soul, he had the patience to work with me in a way that didn't discourage me, but I soon realized that translation isn't what I thought it was. First of all, I discovered that the meaning of a passage does not depend on the meaning of a single word. I discovered that words can have more than one connotation, even meanings that aren't found in a dictionary or a lexicon. I learned to appreciate the fact that words depend on each other to form the idea that the author is attempting to convey and that the context informs the reader about which connotation is intended. But most important of all, I discovered that translation requires interpretation.

For some reason, there exists among Christians a common misconception that translation is uniquely different than interpretation. That's what I used to think, which is one reason why I thought that translation was simply matter of "decoding" the Greek words into English words, woodenly -- word-for-word. I thought decoding the text came first, then interpretation could begin. But I found out, by experience, that I couldn't create a translation of the Greek New Testament into my native tongue without first coming to understand what the author meant to say. I had it backwards -- interpretation comes first, then translation.

Your experience with various translations is teaching you the same thing I learned, only in a different way. We should not be surprised when we find differences in translations because, as I discovered, translation is simply the documented form of an interpretation. As I worked through my translations of the New Testament, the text presented me with decision points where I needed to make a decision, one way or the other, what the author actually meant to say. And sometimes background material also sheds light on the situation and informs our understanding of the meaning of the text.

For instance, what's the difference between East and South? In some situations, nothing. For instance, those living in the Levant, traded with those who lived in the Euphrates river valley, which was East of the Levant. But there did not exist a direct route southwest from the Babylon area (Iraq) to Israel because of the vast desert that lies between them. So traders first travelled northwest along the Euphrates River, then west toward the Mediterranean Sea, then South along the coast toward the land of Israel. That being the case, one could say that Traders in the East came from the East or they came from the North, because both are true. In this instance, North and East are relatively the same thing in that anyone traveling from the East will eventually need to turn South.

 

[The Parson]

I Did not read all the comments (100+) so sorry if i missed this. I just was sharing my experience with you.
Explain what you mean by this?

Then please explain *why* you think God is doing these specific things? And please explain in enough detail so that readers can know the scenario you're trying to describe? Thanks.
I've seen comments that venture into the realm of eschatology. Since that is my forte, I'd love to hear if you think this is a last-day revival thing, a rising tide of Antichrist thing, or?

If you don't mind, I would like to relate my experience to you and hopefully it will encourage you and bless you.

All of these are thoughtful questions, and CadyandZoe's post, a wonderful explanation. If you'll give me the time, I'll answer each after my Dr.s appointments today. Thanks for your patients...

 

[Oseas]

If you don't mind, I would like to relate my experience to you and hopefully it will encourage you and bless you. Ever since I became a believer I always loved reading and studying the Bible. (Not bragging, its just part of the story.) One day, I began to notice when my pastor would mention a Greek word and what I typically meant to the Greek people. So one day, I got the bright idea of creating my own translation of Paul's epistle to the Romans. And here I must admit that my enthusiasm and dedication was measured against my misconception about Bible translation. In my view, I thought Bible translation amounted to a simple decode between languages. And so I set out to "decode" the book of Romans from Greek into English. I bought a Greek interlinear and a Greek Lexicon and I eventually created a word-for-word "translation" of the book of Romans.

I sat down with my professor friend, who knows the Greek language and reads the Bible in Greek and bless his soul, he had the patience to work with me in a way that didn't discourage me, but I soon realized that translation isn't what I thought it was. First of all, I discovered that the meaning of a passage does not depend on the meaning of a single word. I discovered that words can have more than one connotation, even meanings that aren't found in a dictionary or a lexicon. I learned to appreciate the fact that words depend on each other to form the idea that the author is attempting to convey and that the context informs the reader about which connotation is intended. But most important of all, I discovered that translation requires interpretation.

For some reason, there exists among Christians a common misconception that translation is uniquely different than interpretation. That's what I used to think, which is one reason why I thought that translation was simply matter of "decoding" the Greek words into English words, woodenly -- word-for-word. I thought decoding the text came first, then interpretation could begin. But I found out, by experience, that I couldn't create a translation of the Greek New Testament into my native tongue without first coming to understand what the author meant to say. I had it backwards -- interpretation comes first, then translation.

Your experience with various translations is teaching you the same thing I learned, only in a different way. We should not be surprised when we find differences in translations because, as I discovered, translation is simply the documented form of an interpretation. As I worked through my translations of the New Testament, the text presented me with decision points where I needed to make a decision, one way or the other, what the author actually meant to say. And sometimes background material also sheds light on the situation and informs our understanding of the meaning of the text.

For instance, what's the difference between East and South? In some situations, nothing. For instance, those living in the Levant, traded with those who lived in the Euphrates river valley, which was East of the Levant. But there did not exist a direct route southwest from the Babylon area (Iraq) to Israel because of the vast desert that lies between them. So traders first travelled northwest along the Euphrates River, then west toward the Mediterranean Sea, then South along the coast toward the land of Israel. That being the case, one could say that Traders in the East came from the East or they came from the North, because both are true. In this instance, North and East are relatively the same thing in that anyone traveling from the East will eventually need to turn South.

Ecclesiastes 12:v.10 to 14

10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.

11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into Judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.



Now try to interpret and understand this: John 1:v.1 and Matt. 11:v.27

John 1:v.1 ... the Word is GOD.(Yeah, the Word is GOD, invisible GOD, He himself, He who was made flesh, the Father. Great mystery, no?)

Matthew 11:v.27 ...(but), no man knoweth the Father (the Word); save (if not) the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.

Where is the visible GOD? Where can we see Him in Person? But this, of course, only and only to whomsoever the Son reveal
Him, if not .... never will know GOD, who is the Word. Yeah, the Word is GOD.

Many have heard to speak of GOD, and believe that He exists, but know not GOD.

James 2:v.19 - Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe,...

 

[The Parson]

For some reason, there exists among Christians a common misconception that translation is uniquely different than interpretation. That's what I used to think, which is one reason why I thought that translation was simply matter of "decoding" the Greek words into English words, woodenly -- word-for-word. I thought decoding the text came first, then interpretation could begin. But I found out, by experience, that I couldn't create a translation of the Greek New Testament into my native tongue without first coming to understand what the author meant to say. I had it backwards -- interpretation comes first, then translation.

That would be the difference in you and I. To me, that method as explained in your post, would mean that my thoughts were also; Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Did God really say this??? That's how Origen thought. And I believe that man was a heretic from the get go... And Westcott & Hort were fishing from the same boat

I believe/believed that in the English Language, God had His hand in giving us the faithful translation we needed. The King James... And again; 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Your experience with various translations is teaching you the same thing I learned, only in a different way. We should not be surprised when we find differences in translations because, as I discovered, translation is simply the documented form of an interpretation. As I worked through my translations of the New Testament, the text presented me with decision points where I needed to make a decision, one way or the other, what the author actually meant to say. And sometimes background material also sheds light on the situation and informs our understanding of the meaning of the text.

See now, that's just it. Your talking with a King James only apologist, with decades (over 2) of experience. I wouldn't give any credence to the new versions. Why? Because I have not one iota of trust in them like I have with the King James. This isn't a translation thingy at all. It's a "I have hidden God's Word in my heart" sort of thingy from one version only. The authorized version. I'm hoping to totally avoid some "version debate" here. I'm not looking for it, nor do I desire it...

And when I tell you that wording has changed supernaturally, then I mean that wording has changed supernaturally, and not at all from an earthly scholars/editors pen. And no, I'm not misremembering anything.

Not only have I dug to find the missed residue by this spirit of antichrist, but am also relying on my hand written notes down through the years. And I’ve noticed that handwritten cursive letters seem to survive the supernatural changes of peoples Bible study notes. It’s because cursive lettering isn’t as common today as it used to be. Schools stopped teaching our young to write in cursive. I actually believe the devil had his hand right in the middle of this. If our young, much the same as everybody else, do not know how to read these notes and letters, it’s easier for him (the devil and subsequently the antichrist) to find the text, and change it! Peoples cursive hand writing is unique to every person who writes them. That uniqueness causes the spirit of antichrist to miss them because they are so unique.

Did I give you some clarity of my mindset here?

 

[The Parson]

I Did not read all the comments (100+) so sorry if i missed this. I just was sharing my experience with you.
Explain what you mean by this?

I believe I might have answered your question in my last post to CadyandZoe...

 

[The Parson]

Then please explain *why* you think God is doing these specific things? And please explain in enough detail so that readers can know the scenario you're trying to describe? Thanks.
I've seen comments that venture into the realm of eschatology. Since that is my forte, I'd love to hear if you think this is a last-day revival thing, a rising tide of Antichrist thing, or?

Whereas this has very much to do with eschatology, it more has to do with the resulting phenomena of the prophecy directly related to the understanding of eschatology. And I said God was allowing, not doing didn't I??? Please read the post to CadyandZoe I just made...

A last day revival thing? Maybe... A rising tide of antichrist thing? Most assuredly. I know that despite the connotations, my faith has been bolstered. Believe it or not...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Whereas this has very much to do with eschatology, it more has to do with the resulting phenomena of the prophecy directly related to the understanding of eschatology. And I said God was allowing, not doing didn't I??? Please read the post to CadyandZoe I just made...

A last day revival thing? Maybe... A rising tide of antichrist thing? Most assuredly. I know that despite the connotations, my faith has been bolstered. Believe it or not...

Thank you. I only understand your sentiments generally when I read *all* of the comments, so yes, I read your reply to Cady. I think both Cady and you have excellent points, though you both seem to think your views are at variance. I do think interpretation is part of translation work, because there is *no* word for word translation possible from one language to another. There must be some interpretation involved--some context involved.

On the other hand, I would strongly agree with you that translation precedes interpretation--otherwise, we can translate based on what we want to believe, right?

Anyway, I did sense there was a hidden agenda, although you may not have been intentionally hiding anything. But subconsciously, you seemed to resist explaining to me where you were coming from, though to others you were much more explicit.

You say you don't want a Bible versions debate, and I believe this. I think, however, that the whole argument you're making, and the assumptions you're making, are screaming for a Bible versions debate, because your very points are based on the assumption that something fishy is going on in the translation and in the record of those translations.

Your argument is weak simply because there are other and better explanations, I feel, for changes in the use of words. For example, words change because society is always changing, and it is certainly not always an "Antichrist" thing.

Sometimes the changes are indeed due to evils in our society, and due to the way evil people tend to interpret things. But the word changes you describe are so small they appear irrelevant to me. Even with a suspicious slant on words, a careful reader will recognize that it is *context* that rules, and not insignificant, small word changes.

You said you have "many examples"--I have yet to see *one* significant change! If so, then no case has been made yet for your claim, that word changes are taking place, watering down Scriptural truth, if indeed that's what you're trying to say.

Now, we both agree that Antichrist is coming, and that Western society is decaying. Evidence is all around us, and some of that evidence would be in Bible versions, I should think?

But I find this "tampering" with Bible translations only in cult versions of the Bible, such as in the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation Bible version. It corrupts passages such as in John 1.

I don't know how much Mormons may change the Bible in the versions they use. But I do know they think the "stick of Joseph" in Eze 37 refers to the "stick of Joseph Smith!" ;)

Thanks for being candid about how you're framing this. I don't agree, but I respect you and like your spirit.

 

[The Parson]

Thanks for being candid about how you're framing this. I don't agree, but I respect you and like your spirit.

Well then I'm making one stride forward I guess...