I'm Pretty Sure That Jesus Wasn't Talking About This

[GracePeace]

Proverbs 25:26 Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked.

Didn't I say we are to obey God rather than Government if they tell us "sin"?
I think you must be misinterpreting that verse--did Jesus "give way" by obeying God and dying?

For know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; 20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body. 1Corinthians 6:19-20

Context was a condemnation of immorality.

Exodus 22:2-3 If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

1. That was an earthly Theocratic government. We don't live in that type of government--beside which, New Testament doctrine says we're not "under Law".
2. Christ repudiated many Torah commandments in Matthew 5--one in particular was "'eye for eye, tooth for tooth'".

Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked

True:
1. That's what we do when we preach the Gospel--the Lord rescues people from the Wicked One.
2. There're many organizations who rescue sex slaves.
3. There're many organizations who rescue children from abortion.
4. The Apostle Philip was supernaturally carried by the Spirit--if we were more spiritual, we also would be able to do such things in the power of God, negating any need for weapons.

Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.

Agreed. Show me where what you advocate doing is modeled in Scripture.
Paul was stoned to death and beaten with rods several times, but never mentioned retribution or defending himself.

Ezekiel 33 "6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'

Yes, if we are close to God, He may charge us to warn the Church if it is in rebellion against God.

Luke 22:35-39 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." 36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." 38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.

1. Yes, but we also know: a) He rebuked Peter for having drawn his sword and having struck the servant in the Garden, and b) Neither He nor His disciples (remember, they learned from Him how to comport themselves and modeled their lives after Him and His Word) fought to defend themselves when being martyred--and Christ explicitly condemned the idea that His disciples would fight for His cause.
2. Again, "when I sent you" was when He sent them to Israel, but now He would be sending them to the nations to preach the Gospel, so, I don't know, maybe they could have needed the swords for hacking brambles. One thing is for certain : ALL the Apostles (except John) were martyred and NONE of them launched a revolt to defend themselves.

Matthew 10:34 Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Yes, and the next verse tells you why : father turns against daughter, mother against son, on account of their holding to Christ, as He teaches, "whoever loves mother or father or brother more than Me is not worthy of Me". The same is taught in Torah--if anyone leads you to worship another god, your hand will be the first against them, to put them to death, and you will not feel mercy at all ("died without mercy").

Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not murder.

Agreed.

 

[Curtis]

Jesus did it! Why would we not do the same if God asked it of us? Does God ask the same things of every person? People really were put out in the arena in Rome because they refuse to deny their faith in God and His Son. These are hard times today, and they may get worse. What does Jesus say about persecution?

Because Jesus came to die on a cross, so of course He didn’t fight back when they came for Him.

As someone posted, when Jesus was about to ascend to heaven, He told the apostles that when He was with them, He told them to take no purse or sword in their travels, but now it’s time to take both.

Romans 13 is pretty specific that Gods servants were to use a sword against evil doers:

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Shalom.

 

[GracePeace]

Because Jesus came to die on a cross, so of course He didn’t fight back when they came for Him.

We are called "sheep led to the slaughter".

As someone posted, when Jesus was about to ascend to heaven, He told the apostles that when He was with them, He told them to take no purse or sword in their travels, but now it’s time to take both.

"Judge a tree by its fruits" : We know how they didn't interpret that because they all were martyred and offered no resistance.

Romans 13 is pretty specific that Gods servants were to use a sword against evil doers:

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Shalom.

The whole reason why Paul even said "minister of God" was because that fact would not have been apparent : these were not Christians executing governmental justice, but governmental authorities to whom "taxes" were "paid". Scripture teaches that God reigns among the Kingdoms of men--therefore they are "God's servants" when exacting vengeance on evildoers (eg, thieves, murderers).

 

[Amazed@grace]

Didn't I say we are to obey God rather than Government if they tell us "sin"?
I think you must be misinterpreting that verse--did Jesus "give way" by obeying God and dying?

Context was a condemnation of immorality./QUOTE]
Jesus acts aren't what is being discussed. Ours are according to what some insist Jesus wants for and from us.

1. That was an earthly Theocratic government. We don't live in that type of government--beside which, New Testament doctrine says we're not "under Law".
2. Christ repudiated many Torah commandments in Matthew 5--one in particular was "'eye for eye, tooth for tooth'".

And yet God of the Old Testament is Jesus in the new.
Jesus repudiated his OT commands?

True:
1. That's what we do when we preach the Gospel--the Lord rescues people from the Wicked One.
2. There're many organizations who rescue sex slaves.
3. There're many organizations who rescue children from abortion.
4. The Apostle Philip was supernaturally carried by the Spirit--if we were more spiritual, we also would be able to do such things in the power of God, negating any need for weapons.

It says rescue. Not leave them to suffer under the wicked.

Agreed. Show me where what you advocate doing is modeled in Scripture.

Luke 11:21When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe;

Paul was stoned to death and beaten with rods several times, but never mentioned retribution or defending himself.

The bible does not tell us how Paul died.

Yes, if we are close to God, He may charge us to warn the Church if it is in rebellion against God.

Is that what the chapter is teaching?

1. Yes, but we also know: a) He rebuked Peter for having drawn his sword and having struck the servant in the Garden, and b) Neither He nor His disciples (remember, they learned from Him how to comport themselves and modeled their lives after Him and His Word) fought to defend themselves when being martyred--and Christ explicitly condemned the idea that His disciples would fight for His cause.
2. Again, "when I sent you" was when He sent them to Israel, but now He would be sending them to the nations to preach the Gospel, so, I don't know, maybe they could have needed the swords for hacking brambles. One thing is for certain : ALL the Apostles (except John) were martyred and NONE of them launched a revolt to defend themselves.

Why was Peter armed in the first place?

Yes, and the next verse tells you why : father turns against daughter, mother against son, on account of their holding to Christ, as He teaches, "whoever loves mother or father or brother more than Me is not worthy of Me". The same is taught in Torah--if anyone leads you to worship another God, your hand will be the first against them, to put them to death, and you will not feel mercy at all ("died without mercy").

OK.

 

[GracePeace]

@Amazed@grace
Did He repudiate Torah commands?
Read all of the "you have heard it said... but I say" statements in Matthew 5.
Also Matthew 19 on divorce for the explanation behind it all.
You're welcome.

Why was Peter armed? Irrelevant--he was not obeying Christ by striking people which is how you're telling people to interpret that verse and what you're telling people to do.

Paul was stoned to death but resurrected afterward--it's suspected this was when he had his vision of heaven.

Ezekiel--Ezekiel was a holy priest, then was called to speak Words from the Creator to warn the "rebellious" People of God. Today, the equivalent would be warning the Church.

 

[GracePeace]

@Amazed@grace
It's not that I'm going to hate you if you disagree... but I do believe I am parsing God's Word accurately on this issue.
Why don't you see barbarian disciples hacking at unbelievers in the New Testament?
Or laws for warfare?
Because that would be Islam--wrong religion! LOL!

 

[GracePeace]

Thanks for discussion. I should probably rest. Just had dialysis.

 

[Curtis]

Judge a tree by its fruits" : We know how they didn't interpret that because they all were martyred and offered no resistance.

When the time was right, they were martyred because of their witness for Jesus - in the meantime they had a sword to fend off robbers on the road, etc.

Dying on the side of the road with a robbers knife in them, wouldn’t be dying for their preaching and teaching about Jesus, now would it?

Looks like you’re not considering all the facts,

Jesus didn’t tell them it was time to get swords as He was about to ascend to heaven, for nothing.

 

[Brakelite]

We are called "sheep led to the slaughter".


"Judge a tree by its fruits" : We know how they didn't interpret that because they all were martyred and offered no resistance.


The whole reason why Paul even said "minister of God" was because that fact would not have been apparent : these were not Christians executing governmental justice, but governmental authorities to whom "taxes" were "paid". Scripture teaches that God reigns among the Kingdoms of men--therefore they are "God's servants" when exacting vengeance on evildoers (eg, thieves, murderers).

Don't know how it happened, but those quotes attributed to me aren't mine. I haven't contributed to that particular thread.

 

[Amazed@grace]

@Amazed@grace
Did He repudiate Torah commands?
Read all of the "you have heard it said... but I say" statements in Matthew 5.
Also Matthew 19 on divorce for the explanation behind it all.
You're welcome.

Why was Peter armed? Irrelevant--he was not obeying Christ by striking people which is how you're telling people to interpret that verse and what you're telling people to do.

Not true.

Paul was stoned to death but resurrected afterward--it's suspected this was when he had his vision of heaven.

Not in scripture.

Ezekiel--Ezekiel was a holy priest, then was called to speak Words from the Creator to warn the "rebellious" People of God. Today, the equivalent would be warning the Church.

 

[GracePeace]

When the time was right, they were martyred because of their witness for Jesus - in the meantime they had a sword to fend off robbers on the road, etc.

Where in Scripture do you find any of that?

Dying on the side of the road with a robbers knife in them, wouldn’t be dying for their preaching and teaching about Jesus, now would it?

Not necessarily, no.

Looks like you’re not considering all the facts,

Jesus didn’t tell them it was time to get swords as He was about to ascend to heaven, for nothing.

Did Jesus defend His treasure-box from Judas the thief?

 

[GracePeace]

Not true.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

Matthew 5
33“Again, you have heard that [z]the ancients were told, ‘[aa]YOU SHALL NOT [ab]MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR [ac]VOWS TO THE LORD.’ 34But I say to you, take no oath at all, neither by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35nor by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, nor [ad]by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36Nor shall you take an oath by your head, for you cannot make a single hair white or black. 37But make sure your statement is, ‘[ae]Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is [af]of evil origin.
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘EYE FOR EYE, and TOOTH FOR TOOTH.’ 39But I say to you, do not show opposition against an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other toward him also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your [ag]tunic, let him have your [ah]cloak also. 41Whoever [ai]forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Clearly, if you follow the Torah on these matters, you are living in sin.

Matthew 19
3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and [c]asking, “Is it lawful for a man to [d]divorce his wife for any reason at all?” 4And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND HIS MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no person is to separate.” 7They *said to Him, “Why, then, did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND HER AWAY?” 8He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to [e]divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9And I say to you, whoever [f]divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman [g]commits adultery[h].”

Jesus's New Covenant ruling condemned the Torah's ruling as having permitted what He now condemns as adultery.

Not in scripture.

Acts 14
19Then some Jews arrived from Antioch and Iconium and won over the crowds. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, presuming he was dead. 20But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city.

 

[Amazed@grace]

@Amazed@grace
It's not that I'm going to hate you if you disagree... but I do believe I am parsing God's Word accurately on this issue.
Why don't you see barbarian disciples hacking at unbelievers in the New Testament?
Or laws for warfare?
Because that would be Islam--wrong religion! LOL!

Yes, the violence come later as new apostles were intent in establishing the church by any means necessary.
While the violence of God, who does not change, and his disciples in the Old Testament are often forgotten in discussions like this.

 

[GracePeace]

Yes, the violence come later as new apostles were intent in establishing the church by any means necessary.
While the violence of God, who does not change, and his disciples in the Old Testament are often forgotten in discussions like this.

I'm asking what the Bible establishes. Nothing else is Christianity. I reject Catholicism as a deviation and ungodly.
Jesus says we are not to live as they did in the OT. Already cited Matthew 5.

 

[GracePeace]

Yes, the violence come later as new apostles were intent in establishing the church by any means necessary.
While the violence of God, who does not change, and his disciples in the Old Testament are often forgotten in discussions like this.

Good night.

 

[Amazed@grace]

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

Matthew 5
33“Again, you have heard that [z]the ancients were told, ‘[aa]YOU SHALL NOT [ab]MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR [ac]VOWS TO THE LORD.’ 34But I say to you, take no oath at all, neither by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35nor by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, nor [ad]by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36Nor shall you take an oath by your head, for you cannot make a single hair white or black. 37But make sure your statement is, ‘[ae]Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is [af]of evil origin.
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘EYE FOR EYE, and TOOTH FOR TOOTH.’ 39But I say to you, do not show opposition against an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other toward him also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your [ag]tunic, let him have your [ah]cloak also. 41Whoever [ai]forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Clearly, if you follow the Torah on these matters, you are living in sin.

Matthew 19
3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and [c]asking, “Is it lawful for a man to [d]divorce his wife for any reason at all?” 4And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND HIS MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no person is to separate.” 7They *said to Him, “Why, then, did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND HER AWAY?” 8He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to [e]divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9And I say to you, whoever [f]divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman [g]commits adultery[h].”

Jesus's New Covenant ruling condemned the Torah's ruling as having permitted what He now condemns as adultery.

That's fine. What I said isn't true is your statement:"Why was Peter armed? Irrelevant--he was not obeying Christ by striking people which is how you're telling people to interpret that verse and what you're telling people to do."

I never said any such thing.
And quite frankly it's very disappointing to read yet another person claiming I said something and taking issue with it, when in truth I never said what is accused.

Acts 14
19Then some Jews arrived from Antioch and Iconium and won over the crowds. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, presuming he was dead. 20But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city.

You said, "Paul was stoned to death but resurrected afterward--it's suspected this was when he had his vision of heaven."
The actual scripture you cite does not support what you said.
Paul wasn't dead, he wasn't resurrected. Had that been true the scriptures would have stated that since recording the death and resurrection is detailed with regard to Jesus. Had the same happened to Paul it would have said so too.

 

[Grailhunter]

For clarification, the point of Christianity isn't just "go die".

Of course not....go try to convert them...LOL

You are criticizing the Apostles as "mistaken" for having been martyred?

Have no idea what you are talking about.

"Soon" is relative. With God, 1,000 years is as a single day according to Scripture.

A day is a 1000 years and a 1000 years is a day. It is a riddle that means this instant anytime you say it. But of course people use it to explain why they believed they were living in the last days...and they were not. But the explanation itself is blasphemous because it implies that God is to stupid to tell time.

So anyway none of this is a issue for me because I am not a Fundamentalist.
You can say anything you want to say about pacifism...you can be a pacifist...I don't care.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

People, people, don't just stand there and let someone beat on you.

Back in high school, some kid wanted to start a fight with me, he literally slapped one cheeck, and with the scripture in mind, I did nothing. Then he slapped the other, at which point, I blacked out and the next thing I knew he was sitting on the floor leaned against the wall with a bloody nose, and I was standing there without a mark on me. I had no recolection of what I did to him, and had to ask onlookers what happened....very very weird.

We only have two cheeks, I turned the other, and technically, that was all that was required of me. Our minds are designed to involontarily defend ourselves, l mean, let someone start strangling you and see if your hands don't automatically go into action to try to defend yourself. If that isn't enough, piain is a warning to do something about what is hurting us. for instance, we don't just sit there if someone is pouring scalding water on us, we try to stop them.

Pretty elementary stuff here.

Because Jesus “ turned the other cheek”—— I don’t have to....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

There is no debate though. Here for anybody in disagreement. Educate yourself.

I did not have the time to watch this.....when he says , “ Never give up” , what was he talking about? Never “ give up” your tax returns?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

1. That and it's just common courtesy and against the Ten Commandments to do so.

2. There you go. Kamala Harris doesn't have a godly bone in her body,.. and Joe Biden,.. well,.. I just feel sorry for the old bloke as he got roped into all of this and has one foot in the grave already.

Ah yes, how we miss the “ godly” trump—— the man who never asked for any Forgiveness because he had never done anything wrong to ask forgiveness for.....you can't get more LOST than this....


Btw.....”trump Lied — Five Died”.....there is blood on his tiny, Orange hands...