Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?

[Ronald David Bruno]

Is moral imperative the only ground for man's obligation to obey God?

We obey God's Word, His will, His Law because we love Him. It is written in our hearts. Christ's righteousness was imputed to us, like a built in moral code that guides us, a moral compass. But moreso, He lives in us to direct our ways. He encourages us to obey His will and we agree with it and blessed in doing so. We also fear Him. We fear the consequences for disobedience though it may not be severe, He punishes us whenever we get out of line. Whenever we sin or fail, the Holy Spirit convicts us of this, He grieves and we feel guilt - because we are guilty. His silent voice, His thoughts and His word move us towards righteousness. We can disgree and go in a different direction but we fail and are hurt or hurt others by it. After enough lessons in life, we become more in line with His purpose.
So far, I haven't been aware of any of God's chastisements/ punishments for not keeping the Sabbath. I don't get that prod from Him that I am doing something wrong. I worship God everyday. He makes me holy - We are NOT capable of doing that. I wear Christ's righteousness, my own doesn't do.
Besides you cannot keep the Sabbath holy if you tried. Do you keep all 256 Sabbath laws? Sure, you fool yourself to believe you do.

 

[Brakelite]

@Paul Christensen @Eternally Grateful
Since when did obedience become an optional extra when one becomes a Christian? Seriously. What is so wrong as simply doing as you're told because God asked? Why does it always have to be reasoned away?
"Oh, the Sabbath wasn't for Christians".
" You can't work your way to heaven".
"It's wrong to keep the law just to stay out of hell".
The law is now in the heart, not on stone".
" Will I go to hell if I disobey the dandy Commandment?".
And hundreds more excuses, reasons, straw men, arguments and diversions are offered in defense of...
You know, I can't help but be reminded of the scripture on Isaiah 8:20. Which I do not believe applies only to Israel. To the law and to the testimony. If they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them".
To the Torah and the prophets. That includes the New Testament prophets. And the NT law which is indeed written upon the heart. And it's the same law that was written on stone. Jesus said it would remain so long as the earth remains. It isn't an external law. You are right. It's internal as internal could possibly be. Yet what is in our hearts is not the benchmark, because as Jeremiah said, the heart is deceitful above all things. We deceive even ourselves.

KJV 2 Corinthians 3:3
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

The benchmark for righteousness is not internal. The benchmark is external... The law of God written. Then according to our faith that law of love is written on our hearts, and our service and obedience becomes a service of love.

Besides you cannot keep the Sabbath holy if you tried.

Interesting. Why would God convict you of Sabbath observance of your faith is so little? God says, keep holy the Sabbath. And you say, nuh, it can't be done. Where is your faith? We can do all things in Christ Jesus. Especially when it comes to obedience... That was the chief reason Jesus came. To overcome sin in mortal human flesh. To make the law honorable. And as we unite in and with Him in faith, partaking of the divine nature, nothing is impossible to them that believe.
God will not convict you to do anything you don't want to do.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Paul Christensen @Eternally Grateful
Since when did obedience become an optional extra when one becomes a Christian? Seriously. What is so wrong as simply doing as you're told because God asked? Why does it always have to be reasoned away?
"Oh, the Sabbath wasn't for Christians".
" You can't work your way to heaven".
"It's wrong to keep the law just to stay out of hell".
The law is now in the heart, not on stone".
" Will I go to hell if I disobey the dandy Commandment?".
And hundreds more excuses, reasons, straw men, arguments and diversions are offered in defense of...
You know, I can't help but be reminded of the scripture on Isaiah 8:20. Which I do not believe applies only to Israel. To the law and to the testimony. If they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them".
To the Torah and the prophets. That includes the New Testament prophets. And the NT law which is indeed written upon the heart. And it's the same law that was written on stone. Jesus said it would remain so long as the earth remains. It isn't an external law. You are right. It's internal as internal could possibly be. Yet what is in our hearts is not the benchmark, because as Jeremiah said, the heart is deceitful above all things. We deceive even ourselves.

KJV 2 Corinthians 3:3
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

The benchmark for righteousness is not internal. The benchmark is external... The law of God written. Then according to our faith that law of love is written on our hearts, and our service and obedience becomes a service of love.

Interesting. Why would God convict you of Sabbath observance of your faith is so little? God says, keep holy the Sabbath. And you say, nuh, it can't be done. Where is your faith? We can do all things in Christ Jesus. Especially when it comes to obedience... That was the chief reason Jesus came. To overcome sin in mortal human flesh. To make the law honorable. And as we unite in and with Him in faith, partaking of the divine nature, nothing is impossible to them that believe.
God will not convict you to do anything you don't want to do.

What I wonder is why you think the law, which required perfection hence as paul said no one can be justified by law. Could not save us

yet you think us buying commands that fall far short of obedience to the law can save us.

can you explain why you think you are more worthy as a sinner than any other sinner?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

We can do all things in Christ Jesus.

We can do all things in Christ
... if you are in Christ. If you think Christ is actually Michael incognito, well your faith may be as flawed as your understanding of who Jesus really is.

 

[Brakelite]

The belief that Jesus and Michael are one and the same, may not be taught explicitly in scripture, but it is certainly taught implicitly. And it hurts not the reputation of either. There is more evidence for, than against.
And there are within Christianity blatant and downright ugly mischaracterizations of God and Christ which are widely accepted based on far less evidence.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The belief that Jesus and Michael are one and the same, may not be taught explicitly in scripture, but it is certainly taught implicitly. And it hurts not the reputation of either. There is more evidence for, than against.
And there are within Christianity blatant and downright ugly mischaracterizations of God and Christ which are widely accepted based on far less evidence.

so Jesus was just an angel come to earth. He was created and not the alpha and omega?

 

[Brakelite]

so Jesus was just an angel come to earth. He was created and not the alpha and omega?

How many times have you discussed this topic previously?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How many times have you discussed this topic previously?

What does this have to do with what I asked?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm sure most will immediately disagree, and rightly so. Jesus' fulfilling of the Spirit of the Law in us does not permit us to break the Letter of the Law.

Yes, the Letter of the Law is a killer, but to whom? To him who attempts to obtain salvation through observing it - which is impossible, according to Romans 8:7 KJV and Luke 17:10 KJV. But, to the Christian who keeps the Spirit of the Law forbidding lust - and by that will automatically be keeping the Letter of the Law forbidding the act of adultery - to him, it is not a killer, but a "Law of Liberty".

So, if the fact that Jesus is our truth, reward, and faithfulness does not permit us to lie, steal, or fornicate...why do so many claim that since Jesus is their spiritual rest, they may freely break the fourth commandment? To the contrary, if Jesus is indeed our inward Spiritual rest, we will demonstrate that by outward obedience to the fourth commandment, according to Hebrews 4:9-10 KJV. The only rest God ever took was literal rest from His work of creation on the seventh day; the only day upon which He rested, blessed it, and sanctified it. If He is indeed our spiritual rest, we ought to evidence that by literally resting on the seventh day Sabbath day. Need I remind anyone, it's not the fourth "suggestion", it's the Fourth Commandment, right or wrong?

Because the SaBBATH IS A SIGN OF TEH COVENANT BETWEEN GOD AND ISRAEL, NOT GOD AND THE GENTILES OR GOD AND THE CHURCH. The church has noo special day of rest (remember it is a day of rest, not a day to get all gussied up and go to church).

Rom. 14:1-6 is the operating principle for the church. If one wisahe3s to observe Saturday , thye are free to do so. If they want to observe Tuesday- they are free. each according to their own conscience before god!

 

[Brakelite]

What does this have to do with what I asked?

Because you likely already know the answer. This topic comes up often on forums. Your question has been asked numerous times, and answered. I doubt you have missed that. I believe you have seen those answers, but persist with the same inane question... Inane because you choose to deny the answers offered.

The belief that Jesus and Michael are one and the same, may not be taught explicitly in scripture, but it is certainly taught implicitly. And it hurts not the reputation of either.

so Jesus was just an angel come to earth. He was created and not the alpha and omega?

Like I said. An inane question.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Because you likely already know the answer. This topic comes up often on forums. Your question has been asked numerous times, and answered. I doubt you have missed that. I believe you have seen those answers, but persist with the same inane question... Inane because you choose to deny the answers offered.




Like I said. An inane question.

Wow, no pride there

forgive me for honestly asking a question.

whatever dude. Go live in whatever world you live in. I am amazed at the way people who call themselves Christians act in these chat rooms

 

[Brakelite]

Wow, no pride there

forgive me for honestly asking a question.

whatever dude. Go live in whatever world you live in. I am amazed at the way people who call themselves Christians act in these chat rooms

If my assumption that you have been involved previously in conversations on this topic was wrong, then I apologize. There have been so many conversations and debates on this, I thought everyone had at one time or another, been involved. I'm sorry for my presumptive remarks.
In a genuine answer them to your question...

so Jesus was just an angel come to earth. He was created and not the alpha and omega?

I would like to offer one point.
There is no evidence that Michael is an actual created being. He is merely titled as archangel, which literally means, chief of the angels. Such a title can equally be given to the Son of God, as Lord of hosts.
So, no. Believing that the name Michael is an OT name (who is like God) , for the Son of God, who's name before the incarnation was not Jesus, or Jehoshua, does not mean a created angel became a man. Nor does it mean that Jesus was a created being and not as you correctly identify, the Alpha and Omega.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If my assumption that you have been involved previously in conversations on this topic was wrong, then I apologize. There have been so many conversations and debates on this, I thought everyone had at one time or another, been involved. I'm sorry for my presumptive remarks.
In a genuine answer them to your question...

I would like to offer one point.
There is no evidence that Michael is an actual created being. He is merely titled as archangel, which literally means, chief of the angels. Such a title can equally be given to the Son of God, as Lord of hosts.
So, no. Believing that the name Michael is an OT name (who is like God) , for the Son of God, who's name before the incarnation was not Jesus, or Jehoshua, does not mean a created angel became a man. Nor does it mean that Jesus was a created being and not as you correctly identify, the Alpha and Omega.

Actually I have never heard this thinking, I can only ask who Gabriel is then? He too is an archangel

 

[Brakelite]

Actually I have never heard this thinking, I can only ask who Gabriel is then? He too is an archangel

Is he?

 

[kcnalp]

The belief that Jesus and Michael are one and the same, may not be taught explicitly in scripture, but it is certainly taught implicitly. And it hurts not the reputation of either. There is more evidence for, than against.
And there are within Christianity blatant and downright ugly mischaracterizations of God and Christ which are widely accepted based on far less evidence.

Michael is your God and Savior? Jesus is mine!

 

[Brakelite]

Michael is your God and Savior? Jesus is mine!

I know you were involved in a discussion on this topic previously. I just read some of your posts in that very discussion. Here is a link to one post that fully explains our position. And negates your weak attempt at refuting the idea.
Thoughting again!....oh no, is that allowed?

 

[kcnalp]

I know you were involved in a discussion on this topic previously. I just read some of your posts in that very discussion. Here is a link to one post that fully explains our position. And negates your weak attempt at refuting the idea.
Thoughting again!....oh no, is that allowed?

Our position?

 

[Paul Christensen]

A person who has no conflict in themselves about engaging in the works of the flesh as listed in Galatians 5, cannot show the fruits of a true conversion to Christ.

A genuine convert to Christ knows that he or she has a moral responsibility before God to hate sin and treat it as their mortal enemy and to fight against it with all their strength; and when their own strength fails, engage the help of the Holy Spirit to get and hold their ground against sin.

At the same time, along with knowing their responsibility before God, they also know that they are helpless to win against sin because of their own depravity. This is not to say that they accept and rest in their depravity, because as true converts, filled with the Holy Spirit, they are in a war against sin, and will win and lose battles against it as long as they live.

But once their lives come to an end and they enter into glory, the war is over, because sin is no more. No more battles, shortcomings or failures.

There are those who say they have overcome sin to the point where they no longer have to fight against it. These ones are living in Fantasyland, and have succumbed to the sin of pride. They think they are "arrived" to a spiritual state superior to the rest of us mere mortals.

Paul realised that he couldn't win the war and was brought so low in his battles with sin that he cried, "Oh, wretched man that I am!" He asked, "Who can deliver me from this body of death?" The world can't, because it is in the hands of the devil. The flesh can't, because it is helpless. The Law can't, because sinfulness has caused the Law to fail. The devil won't, because he would want Paul to fail and lose the grace of Christ in his life.

Paul gets the revelation. He knows who will deliver him and says, "I thank God through Jesus Christ". He knows that the finished work of Christ on the Cross has delivered him from the Law of sin and death.

If a person doesn't have the conflict between the flesh and the Spirit it is because he is in the hands of devil, and therefore is no threat to him. The devil and his demons fight against only true converts to Christ, because they don't want to lose these ones from their own kingdom.

So, for those who think they have totally overcome sin that they don't have to fight against it any longer, need to consider what spirit is actually controlling them, because it ain't the Holy Spirit!

 

[Brakelite]

Our position?

Yep. Go through that thread and discussion and you will find at least 3 of us are of the same mind.

 

[kcnalp]

Yep. Go through that thread and discussion and you will find at least 3 of us are of the same mind.

Which "church" would be "our"?