Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?

[Paul Christensen]

Ooops, my bad....I meant Hebrews 4:9-10 KJV.

That's more like it!
Does that reference refer to an actual Sabbath day, or does it refer to our rest in Christ - that we no longer have to depend on our works to be justified before God, but we can rest in Christ. What this could mean then is that our Christian lives are just one long spiritual Sabbath.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm sure most will immediately disagree, and rightly so. Jesus' fulfilling of the Spirit of the Law in us does not permit us to break the Letter of the Law.

Yes, the Letter of the Law is a killer, but to whom? To him who attempts to obtain salvation through observing it - which is impossible, according to Romans 8:7 KJV and Luke 17:10 KJV. But, to the Christian who keeps the Spirit of the Law forbidding lust - and by that will automatically be keeping the Letter of the Law forbidding the act of adultery - to him, it is not a killer, but a "Law of Liberty".

So, if the fact that Jesus is our truth, reward, and faithfulness does not permit us to lie, steal, or fornicate...why do so many claim that since Jesus is their spiritual rest, they may freely break the fourth commandment? To the contrary, if Jesus is indeed our inward Spiritual rest, we will demonstrate that by outward obedience to the fourth commandment, according to Hebrews 4:9-10 KJV. The only rest God ever took was literal rest from His work of creation on the seventh day; the only day upon which He rested, blessed it, and sanctified it. If He is indeed our spiritual rest, we ought to evidence that by literally resting on the seventh day Sabbath day. Need I remind anyone, it's not the fourth "suggestion", it's the Fourth Commandment, right or wrong?

We cannot break the letter of teh Law for the Mosaic Law including the ten written in stone which are a ministry of death are not for the church.

We live under the law of Christ not the Mosaic Law. And yes a child of God can do all sorts of stupid things, but they will pay a horrendous price in this life for being a disobedient child of God.

 

[Brakelite]

That's more like it!
Does that reference refer to an actual Sabbath day, or does it refer to our rest in Christ - that we no longer have to depend on our works to be justified before God, but we can rest in Christ. What this could mean then is that our Christian lives are just one long spiritual Sabbath.

Can you explain how anyone can "work their way to heaven" while resting on the Sabbath?
Perhaps you might also explain how one can make Christ Himself his Sabbath rest, when Christ Himself blessed, sanctified, and made holy a specific day to signify not just His rest, but a deliberate devotion of one 24 hour period in which we also may be refreshed.
KJV Exodus 31:17
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Can you explain how anyone can "work their way to heaven" while resting on the Sabbath?
Perhaps you might also explain how one can make Christ Himself his Sabbath rest, when Christ Himself blessed, sanctified, and made holy a specific day to signify not just His rest, but a deliberate devotion of one 24 hour period in which we also may be refreshed.
KJV Exodus 31:17
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

We can't get into heaven on the basis of our good works. Good works leads to self righteousness, which is sin, and a kind of arrogance that we can show God by how good we can be for Him to accept us. The problem with that is that it is impossible to comply with the whole Law. If we could, there would have been no point Jesus dying on the Cross for us. In fact, depending on good works to get us to heaven is an insult to Christ and the finished work of Christ has no value.

"By grace we are saved through faith and not of ourselves but is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast" (Ephesians 2:8).

And yet, for those who are saved, God has a set of good works that we can do according to His will in order to serve Him and provide a testimony for Christ in the world. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).

 

[Brakelite]

We can't get into heaven on the basis of our good works.

That's what I was saying.

The problem with that is that it is impossible to comply with the whole Law. If we could, there would have been no point Jesus dying on the Cross for us

False equivalence. You are making two unrelated principles mean the same thing. Attempting to earn ones way to heaven through "works" is a very different kettle of fish from obedience wrought as a result of the gracious work and power of God in ones life.

In fact, depending on good works to get us to heaven is an insult to Christ and the finished work of Christ has no value.

No argument there.

And yet, for those who are saved, God has a set of good works that we can do according to His will in order to serve Him

That "set of good works" you speak of... Would it by any chance include the power and the willingness to obey God's Commandments? Like the Sabbath for example? And if not, why not?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

We Rest in JESUS!

"When certain days are represented as holy in themselves, when one day is distinguished from another on religious grounds, when holy days are reckoned a part of divine worship, then days are improperly observed… When we, in the present age, make a distinction of days, we do not represent them as necessary, and thus lay a snare for the conscience; we do not reckon one day to be more holy than another; we do not make days to be the same thing with religion and the worship of God; but merely attend to the preservation of order and harmony. The observance of days among us is a free service, and void of all superstition." John Calvin

"The Sabbath itself is not eternal, but was a sign of the Mosaic covenant. Exodus 31:13-17 designates the day as a “sign between Me and you throughout your generations.” As such, it is given to a specific people for a specific time to remind them of a specific covenant – the Mosaic one. When that covenant is replaced with a new one, the sign that pointed to it – the Sabbath – no longer applies. True, the “sign” is said to be “forever,” but…“forever” does not necessarily mean “eternal,” but forever until fulfilled. For example, various other elements of the Mosaic law were spoken of as permanent – including the administration of the tabernacle, animals sacrifices, and the priesthood. All these were fulfilled in Christ."
Scott Klusendorf

"Jesus proclaimed, “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest” (Mt. 11:28). It was an offer of an abiding Sabbath rest. He was the fulfillment of all the Sabbaths pictured. And we don’t need the picture if we have the reality. Sabbaths are no more a part of the New Covenant than animal sacrifices are. J. MacArthur
"The Sabbath is the only one of the Ten Commandments that is nonmoral and purely ceremonial; and it was unique to the Old Covenant and to Israel. The other nine commandments, on the other hand, pertain to moral and spiritual absolutes and are repeated and expanded upon many places in the New Testament. But Sabbath observance is never recommended to Christians, much less given as a command in the New Testament."
John MacArthur

"The sign and seal of the Old Covenant has given way to the reality of Christ in the New Covenant (Matt. 26:28). The Sabbath no longer has significance as a day; its significance is in that to which it pointed – in Him who gives rest (Matt. 11:28) and in Whom we have ceased from our works (Heb. 4:10). For those who rest in Christ, every day is a Sabbath (cf. Rom. 14:5)."
by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Can you explain how anyone can "work their way to heaven" while resting on the Sabbath?
Perhaps you might also explain how one can make Christ Himself his Sabbath rest, when Christ Himself blessed, sanctified, and made holy a specific day to signify not just His rest, but a deliberate devotion of one 24 hour period in which we also may be refreshed.
KJV Exodus 31:17
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

A few thoughts

1. it was a sign to Israel. Not the church
2. Can someone who does not obey the sabbath according to the law get to heaven?

 

[Brakelite]

We Rest in JESUS!

"When certain days are represented as holy in themselves, when one day is distinguished from another on religious grounds, when holy days are reckoned a part of divine worship, then days are improperly observed… When we, in the present age, make a distinction of days, we do not represent them as necessary, and thus lay a snare for the conscience; we do not reckon one day to be more holy than another; we do not make days to be the same thing with religion and the worship of God; but merely attend to the preservation of order and harmony. The observance of days among us is a free service, and void of all superstition." John Calvin

"The Sabbath itself is not eternal, but was a sign of the Mosaic covenant. Exodus 31:13-17 designates the day as a “sign between Me and you throughout your generations.” As such, it is given to a specific people for a specific time to remind them of a specific covenant – the Mosaic one. When that covenant is replaced with a new one, the sign that pointed to it – the Sabbath – no longer applies. True, the “sign” is said to be “forever,” but…“forever” does not necessarily mean “eternal,” but forever until fulfilled. For example, various other elements of the Mosaic law were spoken of as permanent – including the administration of the tabernacle, animals sacrifices, and the priesthood. All these were fulfilled in Christ."
Scott Klusendorf

"Jesus proclaimed, “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest” (Mt. 11:28). It was an offer of an abiding Sabbath rest. He was the fulfillment of all the Sabbaths pictured. And we don’t need the picture if we have the reality. Sabbaths are no more a part of the New Covenant than animal sacrifices are. J. MacArthur
"The Sabbath is the only one of the Ten Commandments that is nonmoral and purely ceremonial; and it was unique to the Old Covenant and to Israel. The other nine commandments, on the other hand, pertain to moral and spiritual absolutes and are repeated and expanded upon many places in the New Testament. But Sabbath observance is never recommended to Christians, much less given as a command in the New Testament."
John MacArthur

"The sign and seal of the Old Covenant has given way to the reality of Christ in the New Covenant (Matt. 26:28). The Sabbath no longer has significance as a day; its significance is in that to which it pointed – in Him who gives rest (Matt. 11:28) and in Whom we have ceased from our works (Heb. 4:10). For those who rest in Christ, every day is a Sabbath (cf. Rom. 14:5)."
by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel,

I disagree with each one of the above authors, and you. Notwithstanding their collective reputation. And as it is extremely likely that other authors with equally impressive credentials have been brought to your attention on previous occasions who had opposite points of view to the ones you've cited, I won't bore you with any more. My choice to observe Sabbath isn't on account of extra biblical writers.
I have just one simple question, and would love to hear your answer.
Is moral imperative the only ground for man's obligation to obey God?

 

[MatthewG]

Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?

If the sin inside of you is causing it; yes. You can do those things the only way to calm the sin down is by the spirit, and the flesh and spirit fight each other.

Can anyone be completely sinless ? No not at all. Even the Apostle Paul suffered in his flesh.

Romans 7:

13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? Certainly not! But in order that sin might be exposed as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good.

17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do.

20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law.

23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.b

24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.​

 

[Brakelite]

1. it was a sign to Israel. Not the church

The Sabbath was indeed a sign to Israel. As scripture says, a sign of God's deliverance from Egypt/slavery/sin, and a sign that their sanctification was solely in the hands of God.
Yet Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for mankind.
KJV Mark 2:27
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,
‭444 ‭ἄνθρωπος‭ anthropos ‭anth’-ro-pos‭
‭
‭‭from ‭435‭ and ops (the countenance, from ‭3700‭); man-faced, i.e. a human being; n m; TDNT-1:364,59; ‭ ‭{See TDNT 72}‭ ‭{See TDNT "the Son of Man" 807}‭
‭
‭‭AV-man 552, not tr 4, misc 3; 559‭
‭
‭‭1) a human being, whether male or female‭
‭‭ 1a) generically, to include all human individuals‭
‭‭ 1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order‭
‭‭ 1b1) of animals and plants‭
‭‭ 1b2) of from God and Christ‭
‭‭ 1b3) of the angels‭
‭‭ 1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin‭
‭‭ 1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity‭
‭‭ 1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul‭
‭‭ 1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God‭
‭‭ 1g) with reference to sex, a male‭
‭‭2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one‭
‭‭3) in the plural, people‭
‭‭4) joined with other words, merchantman‭
‭


and not man for the sabbath:


So while it was a sign for Israel, it was far more than that.
God didn't need to rest after creation. So He was setting an example, similar to when Jesus was baptized. And it wasn't a "spiritual" example... He literally took the day off... And Adam and Eve's first experience in life was sharing that day with their Creator.

2. Can someone who does not obey the sabbath according to the law get to heaven?

Why do you say, according to the law? Let me rephrase your question to give it some more poignancy.
Can someone who does not obey God get to heaven?

 

[Brakelite]

Can anyone be completely sinless

Not until we are glorified, will we be free from the battle against the carnal nature. But can we stop sinning? What sin in particular do you think you can't stop?

About Paul...

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Paul in his saved born again state was still a slave to sin??? See Romans 6:15-23

I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do.

The saved born again Paul couldn't help but do evil?

holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me

The apostle to the gentiles and the writer of half the new testament was still a captive to sin?

 

[Paul Christensen]

I disagree with each one of the above authors, and you. Notwithstanding their collective reputation. And as it is extremely likely that other authors with equally impressive credentials have been brought to your attention on previous occasions who had opposite points of view to the ones you've cited, I won't bore you with any more. My choice to observe Sabbath isn't on account of extra biblical writers.
I have just one simple question, and would love to hear your answer.
Is moral imperative the only ground for man's obligation to obey God?

Justification and sanctification are intertwined. We can't have one without the other. God is not silly. If a person means business with Him concerning salvation, then he must mean business about living a holy life afterward.

Genuine conversion to Christ is the transformed heart changed through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is not following an external set of rules just to get to heaven or keep out of hell. Even if there were no heaven or hell, the truly converted believer will seek to live a holy life anyway. This is because he wants to live a life that honours the Saviour who died for him on the Cross.

If a believer decides that it would honour Christ to observed one day in the week as a Sabbath rest, then he would do it for Christ, not because of any rule that says he has to so he can keep out of hell.

A person with a heart transformed by the Holy Spirit doesn't need anyone to tell him how to live a holy life. The desire is inside of him. If any legalistic person buttonholes him and demands that he live a holy life or else, he would say, "I know that already because Jesus has written His law and commandments on my heart, and I don't need you to dictate God's law to me."

Those who dictate to others how they should comply with the Law, are not dictating God's law, but their own version of law that meets their own ideal standards, in order to have power and control over others.

 

[MatthewG]

Not until we are glorified, will we be free from the battle against the carnal nature. But can we stop sinning? What sin in particular do you think you can't stop?

About Paul...

Paul in his saved born again state was still a slave to sin??? See Romans 6:15-23


The saved born again Paul couldn't help but do evil?


The apostle to the gentiles and the writer of half the new testament was still a captive to sin?

Maybe he liked looking at women, I don’t know what his problem was, but whatever it was the problem it was the sin in him that did it from his claims.

I trust Paul and his admission of making it know that He still had sin in his body.

Stop sinning? No we can’t, though by the spirit the sin with-in the flesh becomes less and less.

Can we be completely perfect in our flesh?
Can we be perfect (mature) in our walk by the spirit of Christ with-in us?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

‭‭ Why do you say, according to the law? Let me rephrase your question to give it some more poignancy.
Can someone who does not obey God get to heaven?

the law was given to Israel, it was not given to Gentiles, so while I agree the sabbath is a good thing, no gentile was ever commanded to keep it. Although it benefits them greatly if they do

and you did not answer my question, I ask again, can someone who does not obey the sabbath get to heaven?

I will respond to your rephrased question after you answer mine,

 

[Marc RL Ministry]

Have you read Galatians? It's a very serious matter. Anyone who says we are to obey Moses may be in serious trouble.

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and prophets by making the two greatest commandments to love God with all your heart, mind and soul and to love your neighbor equal to yourself if we follow these two greatest commandments you cannot possibly break the 10 commandments but you can follow the 10 commandments and break the two greatest commandments prime example is the rich young ruler he loved his wealth more than God and those below himself.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and prophets by making the two greatest commandments to love God with all your heart, mind and soul and to love your neighbor equal to yourself if we follow them two commandments you cannot possibly break the 10 commandments but you can follow the 10 commandments and break the two greatest commandments prime example is the rich young ruler he loved his wealth more than God and those below himself.

Amen, that was what Paul was trying to show, that the law was not given to show us how to be righteous, it was given to prove how sinful we are, and in turn lead us to Christ,

the law says as James said, if we keep the whole law yet stumble in just one point we are guilty

if One sin makes us guilty how guilty are we with all the sins we have added up? That’s why many people who have really matured in Christ see themselves as worse sinners even if most of their lives they thought they were pretty good people because they did not commit these grave sins like adultry, murder. Etc etc. because they realise sin is so much deeper that breaking a command, it’s the mental attitude, anytime you do anything not out of love it is sin, that’s the root of the issue, the flesh. Or serving self.
I can physically obey a command, yet while doing it sin, because I am not doing it out of love but through the flesh,

Paul understood this, a man who at one time thought he was righteous according to the law became the chief of sinners

 

[Marc RL Ministry]

Amen, that was what Paul was trying to show, that the law was not given to show us how to be righteous, it was given to prove how sinful we are, and in turn lead us to Christ,

the law says as James said, if we keep the whole law yet stumble in just one point we are guilty

if One sin makes us guilty how guilty are we with all the sins we have added up? That’s why many people who have really matured in Christ see themselves as worse sinners even if most of their lives they thought they were pretty good people because they did not commit these grave sins like adultry, murder. Etc etc. because they realise sin is so much deeper that breaking a command, it’s the mental attitude, anytime you do anything not out of love it is sin, that’s the root of the issue, the flesh. Or serving self.
I can physically obey a command, yet while doing it sin, because I am not doing it out of love but through the flesh,

Paul understood this, a man who at one time thought he was righteous according to the law became the chief of sinners

Its important to remain focused on Jesus Christ and his teachings this is how the Apostles received the Holy Ghost at Pentecost it wasn't through their teaching after the resurrection but through following Jesus Christ every word and every commandment that the Holy Ghost came upon them its important to note Paul is not part of the foundation of Jesus Christ New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:9-27 only his 12 Apostles are that is why I don't follow his doctrine and stick to what Christ taught us as he is God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Its important to remain focused on Jesus Christ and his teachings this is how the Apostles received the Holy Ghost at Pentecost it wasn't through their teaching after the resurrection but through following Jesus Christ every word and every commandment that the Holy Ghost came upon them its important to note Paul is not part of the foundation of Jesus Christ New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:9-27 only his 12 Apostles are that is why I don't follow his doctrine and stick to what Christ taught us as he is God.

Are you saying the apostles were perfect? and that's why they got the Spirit?

 

[amadeus]

...the only way to calm the sin down is by the spirit, and the flesh and spirit fight each other.

Can anyone be completely sinless ? No not at all. Even the Apostle Paul suffered in his flesh.

​

Not until we are glorified, will we be free from the battle against the carnal nature. But can we stop sinning? What sin in particular do you think you can't stop?

​

About Paul...

​

Paul in his saved born again state was still a slave to sin??? See Romans 6:15-23
The saved born again Paul couldn't help but do evil?
The apostle to the gentiles and the writer of half the new testament was still a captive to sin?

Mostly each day I read and study the scriptures themselves rather the many other sources available. One exception I make is trying to read something from Oswald Chambers' "My Utmost for His Highest" although I seldom read them on designated days. This one [for April 11th] really caught my attention yesterday and seems to apply well here:

"It takes omnipotence to live the life of the Son of God in mortal flesh."

Omnipotence in God, right? But in us?​

“I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee” Job 42:2

“God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God.” Psalm 62:11

“Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.” Psalm 147:5

“But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.” Matt 19:26

What did Jesus tell us to do?

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matt 5:48

And then here consider what John wrote about us:

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” I John 3:2

Should our overcoming of all things carnal which attract us to do sin one more time wait until after we have died physically? Is there not work to be done by us now?

Jesus said with regard to himself:

Joh 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

But then toward his end, but definitely before his end, as a man he said this and the suffering and death was still to be done:

“And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world,...” John 17:11

These are in the world! That is we are still here, you and me, and still subject to sin, but do we not have available the power to overcome to even become perfect as he told us in Matt 5:48?

When? After we are covered in carnal death with the dirt of of grave diggers? I think not!

“Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” Matt 5:14-16

In spite of this have not we have stumbled since meeting Jesus as Paul stumbled and may we not stumble again..? But let not confess by faith the impossibility of it. The impossibility is for our flesh alone. Are we alone? Does our flesh alone have to do what Jesus told us to do?

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” Acts 1:8

“ To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:” Col 1:27

Why then do we fail so often, each of us, who has sinned yet one more time? Paul himself penned in warning to us the answer and the solution:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

How much like Jesus are we now? How often do we quench the Spirit of God in us now?

 

[MatthewG]

As often as Paul did who prayed for the thorn in his side three times yet God did not take it away for it had made Paul able to be humble rather than to becoming conceited. Amadeus you had a lot to read through.