Michael is Jesus?

[michaelvpardo]

Goodnight Michael
Been a long day.

HUGS

Goodnight to you too friend.
I've had a long day too, but they seem to be getting shorter and shorter. Wouldn't it be cool if the Lord pushed back the sun dial again?

 

[michaelvpardo]

.
According to Watchtower Society theology, Michael's human existence ended
with his death on the cross; and his human body is still dead to this day, i.e.
Michael's human remains are squirreled away somewhere on Earth in a
condition and a location known only to God.

The permanent death of Michael's human body was essential for a very
practical reason. It has to stay dead in order to make it possible for Michael
to regain his angel existence because in WT theology it is impossible for
someone to exist as a spirit being and a physical being simultaneously.

In other words: the Watchtower Society's resurrection wasn't the return of a
deceased man to life, rather; the return of a deceased angel to the life it had
before becoming a man.
_

Yup, a lot of insanity in the cults. A sane mind comes from Jesus Christ the LORD.

 

[kcnalp]

If ALL things consist IN Him, then that includes Michael.
No?

Hugs

Yes, Jesus created Michael.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, Jesus created Michael.

I suppose that must mean he Jesus created God if we take the text 'ALL things consist IN Him,'

 

[kcnalp]

I suppose that must mean he Jesus created God if we take the text 'ALL things consist IN Him,'

You suppose? But you suppose that Michael is God. He ain't!

 

[Ziggy]

In the Begiining God said Let there be Light.
This is the Light that shineth every man that comes into the world,
Everything was created for an by and through him.

Did God create himself?

What was before God said Light?

The lamb is the glory of God.
The Lamb is the Light.
I glorify my father and he is glorified in me.

Simple riddle..

And saw the Light that it was Good.
There is none good but God.

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

Hugs

 

[kcnalp]

God / Jesus ALWAYS existed.

Micah 5:2 (NKJV)
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting."

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

"None"? Why then did 99% of the Reformation, and it's leadership (like Luther, Melanchthon, etc) all show from scripture that Jesus is Michael (see the wikipedia image, and the references cited, or see Chapters 11 and/or Appendix 2)? It goes all the way back to even Melito of Sardis, that Jesus is "among the angels, Archangel".

The number one rule in dealing with Protestant or Catholic theology is understanding that very little of what either group practices or believes can actually be supported by the Bible. It doesn't matter if some famous theologian or "church father" says something is biblical. What matters is whether or not an apostle or prophet in the Bible says it is. The Reformers rejecting whole books and passages in the Bible says a lot about their credibility as theologians or Christians.

The SDA church wants to have it both ways in many areas. They believe that you can have your cake and eat it too.

1. Jesus is God, but He is also Michael the archangel.
2. Salvation is by grace through faith, but it also includes works.
3. Christ finished His work of redemption, but continues His work in the heavenly Sanctuary.
4. Others are also Christians, but Sunday worship means that they have taken the Mark of the Beast.
5. People are saved, but they are still subject to "an Investigative Judgment".

All of this confusion is because of a lady who was rather confused -- Mary Baker Eddy. If the SDAs would say "Enough of that, and let's stick to the Bible" all these anomalies would disappear.

You're being dishonest in misrepresenting SDAs on the second point. While the Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, it also teaches that biblical faith requires obedience. Paul and James made this abundantly clear throughout Rom. 6, Eph. 2:8-10, and Jas. 2. But to end any debate over this, Christ Himself made this crystal clear in passages like Matt. 7:21-23, Luk. 6:46, and Jhn 14:23-24. Saving faith goes a lot further than intellectually affirming Christ's existence as the Messiah or His sacrifice. Saving faith is demonstrated through obedience like Abraham showed, otherwise there is no point in someone calling Christ "Lord" or "King". This is as simple to understand as basic math for anyone who believes God.

Isaiah 9:6
Acts 20:28
1 Timothy 3:16

dude there are like a thousand places.

i'm honestly shocked at how much unabashed heresy there is in this forum

Here's why you are absolutely wrong. First of all, Isa. 9:6 does not say Christ is the Father; it says "His name will be called Everlasting Father". This is a Millennial prophecy that is describing Christ acting in a father role for the newly converted people during that period. Christ can be seen in the biblical record calling a separate being Father, so common sense dictates then that Christ is not the Father.

In Acts 20:28, there is literally no mention of anybody being called "the Father" either. If you look at verse 17, you can see that Paul is addressing the church elders in Ephesus about how the Christians there would need them to continue leading them properly in since he would never see them again.

1 Tim. 3:16, Christ isn't called the Father either. It only says Christ became a human being, seen by angels, and preached to Gentiles. Nothing about anybody calling Him "the Father". It's bad enough that you are reading your own ideas into the text and claiming there are a "thousand places" where Christ is supposedly called the Father(and there aren't), but you top it all off by ironically making claims of there being unabashed heresy on this forum while contributing to it. As Christ said, check your own eye before trying to take something out of someone else's eye.

 

[post]

Here's why you are absolutely wrong. First of all, Isa. 9:6 does not say Christ is the Father; it says "His name will be called Everlasting Father".

so you're saying Christ is given a deceptive, lying name?

interesting theology you got there bud.

 

[post]

In Acts 20:28

in Acts 20:28 the church is called the church of God.
in Acts 20:28 the church is said to be bought by God with God's own blood.

Who shed blood to purchase the church as a possession for Himself? ever heard of the Cross?
and look at Titus 2:13-14. Jesus Christ gave Himself to purify for Himself a people, the church.

your mind is just as darkened as Mssr. Wranglers, and God will give it over to even more debasement, until you believe and confess: even if it is only on that day when every knee bows before Him.
i suggest you stop trying to teach anyone or attempt to explain any scripture to anyone here or elsewhere; you do them harm. you cannot comprehend the Bible while you reject it.

 

[post]

1 Tim. 3:16, Christ isn't called the Father either. It only says Christ became a human being

speaking explicitly of the Messiah, it says God was manifest in the flesh.

i strongly suggest you stop posting altogether in Christian forums. you are teaching confusion.

 

[Enoch111]

You're being dishonest in misrepresenting SDAs on the second point. While the Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, it also teaches that biblical faith requires obedience.

No that is NOT dishonest at all. The SDA doctrine of salvation is dishonest. The Seventh Day Adventist Church teaches that one must be "worthy" to receive eternal life and be included in the first resurrection. So that is salvation by grace + works.

The Bible teaches that it is only the worthiness of Christ and His finished work of redemption that guarantees eternal life to the one who believes. And all those who are saved by grace through faith will indeed be in the first resurrection.

This hodge-podge SDA theology is because of the false teaching of a so-called "Investigative Judgment". Plus Adventists believe that souls sleep in their graves (six feet under) rather than go either to Heaven or Hades. So there is a lot of false teaching mixed in with some truth. And let's not forget Jesus being identified as Michael the Archangel.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

speaking explicitly of the Messiah, it says God was manifest in the flesh.

i strongly suggest you stop posting altogether in Christian forums. you are teaching confusion.

I'm not denying the passage says God was manifest in the flesh, but Jhn 1 clearly says the Word was the God that became flesh, not the God that became the Father. If anyone should stop teaching confusion, it's you.

No that is NOT dishonest at all. The SDA doctrine of salvation is dishonest. The Seventh Day Adventist Church teaches that one must be "worthy" to receive eternal life and be included in the first resurrection. So that is salvation by grace + works.

The Bible teaches that it is only the worthiness of Christ and His finished work of redemption that guarantees eternal life to the one who believes. And all those who are saved by grace through faith will indeed be in the first resurrection.

This hodge-podge SDA theology is because of the false teaching of a so-called "Investigative Judgment". Plus Adventists believe that souls sleep in their graves (six feet under) rather than go either to Heaven or Hades. So there is a lot of false teaching mixed in with some truth. And let's not forget Jesus being identified as Michael the Archangel.

You are really reaching on the bolded, particularly because the Bible clearly teaches that the elect will be part of the first resurrection. So yes, somebody does have to be considered worthy to receive eternal life. Christ Himself said FEW will be on the road that leads to life, not many. Few =/= anyone who believes. Using your logic, all of the deceivers Christ and the other apostles spoke against are just as qualified to be part of that resurrection. Your theology completely contradicts everything the Bible teaches.

 

[kcnalp]

Not even one verse in the Bible states nor implies that Michael is God or Savior!

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Not even one verse in the Bible states nor implies that Michael is God or Savior!

Dear @kcnalp
1. The main peoplevI ran into teaching that "Michael is Jesus" are Jehovah Witnesses taught to interpret Jesus as the only one authorized to Judge or do battles (see attached explanation of where they get this and how they read the Bible)
2. I see JW as righteous gentiles honestly trying to follow the law and obedience to God/Jehovah as they were given instructions to their tribe.
3. However, I see Michael more tied to the MERCY of God and the role of the HOLY SPIRT where ELOHIM implies plurality or collective level of God manifesting to humanity in more diverse ways. Here, on the level of the Holy Spirit, it is more conceivable to see Michael as an archangel/messenger.

Because JW are biased against tying Jesus the Son more closely with God the Father, this makes sense in their system why they keep tying Jesus in with Michael who represents the side of God by the Holy Spirit which DOES accompany Jesus.

The JW put more weight on the Jesus/Holy Spirit connection and less on the Jesus/God connection. Because they are operating and teaching closer to the secular gentiles who require proof and explanations established through their given frame of reference before they change their minds.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

God is in all and through all. God is all in all.
Some with a little measure and some with a lot.
Each individual is a part of God.
Otherwise there would not be life in us.

Am I my brother's keeper?
Yes.
You share the same life.
Michael is Jesus, Jesus is God and we are all a part of God.
We once were inseperable, oneness.
A distance grew like splintered light, like atoms in the universe.
Multiplying himself through his creation.
And each of us is a part of Him and a part of each other.
And yet individual and unique.

Amazing isn't it?
Hugs

Hi @Ziggy Hi also to @Backlit
Since the HOLY SPIRIT is where ELOHIM or the plurality of God in the Heavens with ANGELS is represented,
Could we agree to align the beliefs about connecting Michael with Jesus and God
on the level of the HOLY SPIRIT where all humanity receives this spirit of ONENESS with God.

Yes it is through Jesus Christ as the ONE Mediator between man and God.

In this thread, and all talks I have seen over Trinity representations and explanations,
The confusion comes from mixing contexts.

Us being ONE with God is
not the same as what other people mean by
"_____ is God."

We are better off spelling out what we mean so clearly that both people agree, both the presenter and the receiver.

If one or the other disagrees, and objects citing Scripture, this shows the wording or the concept is coming across differently, or in an opposing manner.

We need to either pinpoint the language, or pinpoint the perception that is off.

Can we start aligning terms by agreeing that
* God as in the FATHER refers to the role of Creator and Author of Life on an infinite universal scale beyond any other (whether Jesus or Angels or any subset of God's truth) this being the INFINITE nature of God, no other term or perception is fully God because anything else is a partial expression and thus finite.
2. Jesus the Son being the ONE Mediator between God and man, and the one path to Salvation, this is God's Will and Authority of all laws and justice made incarnate so this can be embodied in man. No other than Jesus plays this role of Mediator to bring Salvation through Redemption on the Cross by His unique role and sacrifice for this purpose. Can we agree this is NOT the exact same thing as God the Father who is greater than All while the Son and the Father are still ONE, and these two statements do not contradict each other (John 10:29-30) but are simultanepusly true
3. The HOLY SPIRIT which accompanies Jesus is also God manifesting, to humanity in diverse ways. This is where plurality and diversity of how we see and talk with or ablut God and Jesus takes place. By uniting in Christ, we receive understanding of God that comes from God, regardless if we say things in different ways.

Some differences must be corrected, like confusing Christianity with Antichrist.
Some differences may not change, like someone understanding God's Universal laws as Truth or Wisdom, or others calling this God's Natural Laws or Spiritual Laws.
Some may benefit by changing to communicate with others, because we agree enough in spirit, that changing the wording doesn't affect us, but prevents confusing a neighbor.

Can we agree that the differences between how we see Jesus and Michael are part of the Holy Spirit (if our faith is the same in connecting with God through Christ as the only Mediator to resolve any such rebukes).

But if we do not agree on the unique role of Jesus first, then we should pray and agree there in Christ first BEFORE seeking to discuss expressions or representations related to Michael or any other angels or prophets that serve on the level of God's Holy Spirit manifesting to us through Christ Jesus, whether on a heavenly or earthly level since Jesus is the one connection between both realms.

Can we please pray for unity in Christ to receive God's truth that resolves any differences in understanding, perception or communication?

Thank you
In Jesus name Amen

 

[Brakelite]

Hi @Ziggy Hi also to @Backlit
Since the HOLY SPIRIT is where ELOHIM or the plurality of God in the Heavens with ANGELS is represented,
Could we agree to align the beliefs about connecting Michael with Jesus and God
on the level of the HOLY SPIRIT where all humanity receives this spirit of ONENESS with God.

Yes it is through Jesus Christ as the ONE Mediator between man and God.

In this thread, and all talks I have seen over Trinity representations and explanations,
The confusion comes from mixing contexts.

Us being ONE with God is
not the same as what other people mean by
"_____ is God."

We are better off spelling out what we mean so clearly that both people agree, both the presenter and the receiver.

If one or the other disagrees, and objects citing Scripture, this shows the wording or the concept is coming across differently, or in an opposing manner.

We need to either pinpoint the language, or pinpoint the perception that is off.

Can we start aligning terms by agreeing that
* God as in the FATHER refers to the role of Creator and Author of Life on an infinite universal scale beyond any other (whether Jesus or Angels or any subset of God's truth) this being the INFINITE nature of God, no other term or perception is fully God because anything else is a partial expression and thus finite.
2. Jesus the Son being the ONE Mediator between God and man, and the one path to Salvation, this is God's Will and Authority of all laws and justice made incarnate so this can be embodied in man. No other than Jesus plays this role of Mediator to bring Salvation through Redemption on the Cross by His unique role and sacrifice for this purpose. Can we agree this is NOT the exact same thing as God the Father who is greater than All while the Son and the Father are still ONE, and these two statements do not contradict each other (John 10:29-30) but are simultanepusly true
3. The HOLY SPIRIT which accompanies Jesus is also God manifesting, to humanity in diverse ways. This is where plurality and diversity of how we see and talk with or ablut God and Jesus takes place. By uniting in Christ, we receive understanding of God that comes from God, regardless if we say things in different ways.

Some differences must be corrected, like confusing Christianity with Antichrist.
Some differences may not change, like someone understanding God's Universal laws as Truth or Wisdom, or others calling this God's Natural Laws or Spiritual Laws.
Some may benefit by changing to communicate with others, because we agree enough in spirit, that changing the wording doesn't affect us, but prevents confusing a neighbor.

Can we agree that the differences between how we see Jesus and Michael are part of the Holy Spirit (if our faith is the same in connecting with God through Christ as the only Mediator to resolve any such rebukes).

But if we do not agree on the unique role of Jesus first, then we should pray and agree there in Christ first BEFORE seeking to discuss expressions or representations related to Michael or any other angels or prophets that serve on the level of God's Holy Spirit manifesting to us through Christ Jesus, whether on a heavenly or earthly level since Jesus is the one connection between both realms.

Can we please pray for unity in Christ to receive God's truth that resolves any differences in understanding, perception or communication?

Thank you
In Jesus name Amen

Jesus as the Son of God, is God, because like begets like. He is a separate personality, but has all the same divine attributes of the Father.
Giving the Son of God the name of Michael in His pre-incarnate state as a Spirit in heaven, and occasionally appearing to men as an angel, does not mean He is a created being. Rather he is the God who created all other beings, “whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him” –Colossians 1:16.

Jesus is not called an angel, but rather the “chief of the angels.” And if such a title as angel is given him, it is only because the word “angel” means “messenger,” and Jesus is indeed the chief messenger of God.

That is a brief summary from all the information previously offered. There is more detail in previous posts, but the above simplifies it.

 

[Ziggy]

Right now, I'm watching the world get shaken.
I'm watching it get shaken and everything unholy and nasty is falling.
And I want to reply to you Emily..
I can't right now. Because no matter how I try to write my response, (and I've tried 3 times so far)
I keep getting distracted.
So, I just wanted to let you know, I'm not being rude by not responding..
it's just I can't focus on this question right now and give it the attention it deserves.

Have patience..
Thank You
Hugs

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Right now, I'm watching the world get shaken.
I'm watching it get shaken and everything unholy and nasty is falling.
And I want to reply to you Emily..
I can't right now. Because no matter how I try to write my response, (and I've tried 3 times so far)
I keep getting distracted.
So, I just wanted to let you know, I'm not being rude by not responding..
it's just I can't focus on this question right now and give it the attention it deserves.

Have patience..
Thank You
Hugs

Same here Z
You kinda described my wanting to reply to one of your other msgs, but it is very personal. You inspired multiple ideas and thoughts that went in different directions.

So I replied to your other msgs in the meantime.

Ill get to the other one soon!
You described this well.

Lots of people are going through trials tribulations and tumultuous changes.

So we will catch each other on the rebound.
So much stuff changing around us.

Like contractions and labor pains because birth of greater things are preparing to break.

Take care
More prayers and power of Grace
to you and Everyone here!

In Jesus name be uplifted and
Blessed for God's glory plans and purposes
all coming together perfectly.
Amen

 

[Mark51]

What Scriptural proof is used to declare that Michael is Jesus?

The name “Michael” means “Who Is Like God?” Interestingly, the title “archangel” is used elsewhere in the Bible with reference to only one person: Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 4:16) Furthermore, the title “archangel” means “chief of the angels.” Compare: Daniel 12:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:7; Matthew 24:30, 31; 25:31; Jude 9; Revelation 12:7; 17:14.