Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,621
2,335
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then where do we descend from? We go up to heaven for a split second then come immediately back down? Doesn't make sense

Scholars have pointed out that the language used is of a group of people going out to meet a dignitary at the gate, as he is on his way into the city. We are seized, or caught up, to heaven, to meet Christ as he begins his descent. We do this so as to put on our glorified clothing in order to descend to earth with him, thus inheriting with him, the earth in glorious new bodies.

The dead spirits of Christians in the past are already with Christ. Thus, Christ will descend with angels and saints already in heaven with him, and those living on earth at this time will be caught up in a second of time to join them in their grand descent, to defeat the Antichrist and to establish God's Kingdom on the earth. It does make sense. It's what the Bible teaches.

Pretribbers make a big deal about the logistics of having to go to heaven first, remain there for 7 years, so as to be able to be seen as coming back with him. They say we must go to heaven first in order to return from heaven with him.

But you say this can't happen in a "twinkling of an eye?" That's exactly what we read in 1 Cor 15.

1 Cor 15.51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do we all know the weaknesses of our own views? Are we willing to acknowledge them?

Much love!
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,828
4,156
113
48
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You shouldn't think that because someone cannot answer a select question that his position is therefore indefensible. I should think you agree, and yet you are demanding an answer. Wouldn't you rather have the person be honest if he or she doesn't know something? It doesn't at all mean that his or her position is wrong!

I'm Postrib, and have some very good arguments for holding to that position. That doesn't mean I'm absolutely certain or convinced about certain passages that are more difficult. In this case, our brother may not know the answer to 2 Thes 2 and your question about it. But he is absolutely right there that Pretrib has a greater worry, that they cannot come up with any biblical theology stating explicitly that the Rapture of the Church precedes the Tribulation. I don't mean that you try to prove an Imminent Rapture, and then argue logically towards a Pretrib Rapture, but that you produce explicitly Pretrib Theology in the Bible! You won't be able to do it. It's just not there. For 1800 years Christians read the Bible and never concluded a Pretrib Rapture is in the Bible. Darby got there by his own contrived theology, logically concluding things that were less than explicit--things he wished to believe.

But I will give you my own take on 2 Thes 1 and your question. What were the Thessalonian Christians afraid of? They were afraid that Christ had come back somewhere in the world, and perhaps in some movement claiming to be bringing in the Kingdom of Christ. Jesus himself had warned about this, and I would assume that this is what he was concerned with--premature claims that the Kingdom has come or is coming imminently. Jesus made it clear in the same Address that he was Coming *after* the Tribulation of the present age, and after the punishment of the Jewish People. He made it clear that any secret Rapture theory was a false one, and that we should only believe he has come if it is a universal revelation to the earth. That is explicit biblical theology.

Pretrib tries to circumvent this explicit theology by slitting the history of the Church from the history of Israel, placing Israel's history in B.C. and in 7 years at the end of the age. But no such distinction exists in Scriptures. It is "read into" Scriptures with the presumption that it is true in advance, without any explicit theology justifying it. And then, because it is not explicit theology, it is claimed to be accepted only by special esoteric revelation, without which Christians are assumed to be blind and unprepared for Christ's Coming. Talk about circular arguing!

Let me be clear. If Scriptures do not provide explicit theology, you should not believe it. If the Holy Spirit doesn't spell it out, we shouldn't read it in. That is the problem with Pretrib, and it is a serious offense. That being said, I don't hate any Pretribber because like them I was taught it by those who looked up to. But when I pursued the Scriptures independently, I found no Pretrib teaching in the Scriptures whatsoever. The only thing I had to fight against was the memory of what I had been force fed.

Please allow me to share who I am - I am a nobody who is loved by Somebody who died for my sins. Saved over 30 years ago. Earnestly studied and continue to study the Word of God for His Truth and the understanding that the Holy Spirit has for each of us in Christ - IF, we are willing to let Him. Most of my close Brothers in Christ are pre-tribrs. We love each other, pray for each other and enjoy each others fellowship.
When I speak about things I know from the Holy Spirit through scripture. I speak only after I have submitted myself to the Lord with exhaustive study in the Word with Concordance and all the tools available to me, including much, and I emphasize, MUCH listening.
When I say that Pre-Trib is a lie, I say so because the Lord and the Apostles said so FIRST. I do not have special revelation. My feet stand on Sola Scriptura.
I do not attach myself or name myself by any denomination. I was born and raised Catholic. The Catholic Church is pure EVIL.
Please do not take what I say about the lie of pre-trib as though I am attacking or deriding anyone who follows that.
My heart to all in the Body of Christ is to be free from religion, the fear and control of men who use intellectual whit to confound and mesmerize and rob the People of God - my Brethren.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Curtis

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,828
4,156
113
48
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Mark, what question did you not receive an answer to?
The Thessolinican Believers were under great Persecution and Tribulation as they where being put to death for their faith in Jesus.
Therefore Chapter 1 of 1 Thess completely obliterates any and all pre-trib lies.
Paul wrote to comfort them about what they were SUFFERING under and how the Lord will One Day will make all things RIGHT = The Resurrection of those who have died in Christ FIRST, then after that Rapture of the remaining believers who are ALIVE at His Coming and the Judgement upon those who harmed the Temple of God (Believers).

Paul writes again in 2 Thess Ch2 because someone (False Lying Pre-Tribber) was telling them that the Rapture had occurred and they were 'LEFT BEHIND'. Does that sound familiar to you!!!!!
So Paul told them that the Day of Christ (#1 Resurrection, #2 Rapture and #3 Judgement) will NOT occur until the Man of Sin is Reveled.
And by the way, the Apostle John agreed with Paul and thus he wrote the letter we call 1 John, read chapter 2.

Paul also hates, I mean he hates the pre-trib, so he wrote to Timothy about it. Read 2 Timothy 2:15-19
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Much love!

You said: I told you I could answer, and it is simple. Because they were expecting to be gathered to Jesus before that Day. What other reason could there be?

Did you want to offer a different answer?

Much love!

The answer to your question is the following, which includes 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4:

Rapture at second coming, and day of the lord

The key timelines in establishing the mid trib rapture are: 1. the son of perdition, aka the abomination of desolation and 2. the Day of the Lord.

The son of perdition is revealed in the middle of the 70th week, per Daniel, (mid trib) - and then scriptures show that the second coming of Christ and the day of the Lord occur together, such as Zechariah 14:1the day of the Lord comes, and so does Jesus with all the saints, in 14:5. (Day of the Lord, then rapture)

In Matthew 24we have the son of perdition in verse 15, the day of the lord in verse 29, and the second coming of Jesus in verse 30. (Mid trib rapture)

In Luke 21 we have the abomination of desolation in verse 20, the Day of the Lord in verse 25, and the rapture in verse 27. (Mid trib rapture)

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Paul states:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and byour gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul states that the second coming of Christ and our being gathered to be with Him, can’t happen until the son of perdition is revealed.

Note: the Day of the Lord is part of His second coming, not a separate event - so Paul isn’t talking about two separate events there, as many think.

This puts the rapture AT His second coming, AFTER the son of perdition is revealed - which happens in the middle of Daniels 70th week, per Daniel - right smack in the middle of the tribulation.

Now, for all those those who don’t accept that the Day of the Lord is simultaneous with the second coming of Christ, when we back up one chapter to 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 under the heading THE JUDGMENT AT CHRIST’S COMING - it shows unequivocally that at His coming, He comes with flaming fire, taking vengeance, and with destruction - which is what happens at the Day of the Lord.

Then there’s corroborating fact that Jesus warns us that BOTH the Day of the Lord, and His return, will come suddenly, as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 ; Revelation 16:15

Therefore scripture establishes that 1. the rapture is at His second coming, after the son of perdition is revealed, and 2. that the Day of the Lord is simultaneous with the rapture.

The rapture is mid trib, pre mark, pre great tribulation, pre wrath, and premillennial, IMO.

Shalom Aleichem
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Please allow me to share who I am - I am a nobody who is loved by Somebody who died for my sins. Saved over 30 years ago. Earnestly studied and continue to study the Word of God for His Truth and the understanding that the Holy Spirit has for each of us in Christ - IF, we are willing to let Him. Most of my close Brothers in Christ are pre-tribrs. We love each other, pray for each other and enjoy each others fellowship.
When I speak about things I know from the Holy Spirit through scripture. I speak only after I have submitted myself to the Lord with exhaustive study in the Word with Concordance and all the tools available to me, including much, and I emphasize, MUCH listening.
When I say that Pre-Trib is a lie, I say so because the Lord and the Apostles said so FIRST. I do not have special revelation. My feet stand on Sola Scriptura.
I do not attach myself or name myself by any denomination. I was born and raised Catholic. The Catholic Church is pure EVIL.
Please do not take what I say about the lie of pre-trib as though I am attacking or deriding anyone who follows that.
My heart to all in the Body of Christ is to be free from religion, the fear and control of men who use intellectual whit to confound and mesmerize and rob the People of God - my Brethren.

Pre trib is close, but no cigar.

The mid trib rapture is pre mark, pre great tribulation, pre wrath, and premillennial.

Shalom Aleichem
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The answer to your question is the following,
I'm looking for it, but I don't see where you explain why they would be troubled by someone telling them the Day of Christ had arrived. Why that would trouble them concerning being gathered together.

If they thought that the gathering together came after the revealing of the man of sin, after the arrival of the Day of Christ, then they would know they had moved measurably closer to that gathering, if that Day of Christ had arrived. The clock would now be ticking.

Not as untroubling concerning the circumstances in the world, thinking it's now the day of judgement! That part could be very troubling! But concerning being gathered, they would just say, It's just a matter of time now!

Paul states that the second coming of Christ and our being gathered to be with Him, can’t happen until the son of perdition is revealed.

That's not what he says. He says, "That day will not come", what day? The day of Christ. Not the gathering to Christ, but the Day of Christ.

If you say, the rapture is also being called the day of Christ, that leaves you having to explain why they would be troubled by someone saying "the rapture is today". Me, I'd take a "wait and see" approach on that one.

The rapture is mid trib, pre mark, pre great tribulation, pre wrath, and premillennial, IMO.

I really appreciate your clarity!

Much love!
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Mark, what question did you not receive an answer to?
The Thessolinican Believers were under great Persecution and Tribulation as they where being put to death for their faith in Jesus.
Therefore Chapter 1 of 1 Thess completely obliterates any and all pre-trib lies.
Paul wrote to comfort them about what they were SUFFERING under and how the Lord will One Day will make all things RIGHT = The Resurrection of those who have died in Christ FIRST, then after that Rapture of the remaining believers who are ALIVE at His Coming and the Judgement upon those who harmed the Temple of God (Believers).

Paul writes again in 2 Thess Ch2 because someone (False Lying Pre-Tribber) was telling them that the Rapture had occurred and they were 'LEFT BEHIND'. Does that sound familiar to you!!!!!
So Paul told them that the Day of Christ (#1 Resurrection, #2 Rapture and #3 Judgement) will NOT occur until the Man of Sin is Reveled.
And by the way, the Apostle John agreed with Paul and thus he wrote the letter we call 1 John, read chapter 2.

Paul also hates, I mean he hates the pre-trib, so he wrote to Timothy about it. Read 2 Timothy 2:15-19

I don’t consider them false liars, just wishful thinkers that proof texted their way into an error.

In actuality the second coming and the Day of the Lord are synonymous, since at His coming, He comes with flaming fire, and vengeance, which is what occurs at the Day of the Lord.

Here’s scriptural data I collected on this:

Rapture at second coming, and day of the lord


The key timelines in establishing the mid trib rapture are: 1. the son of perdition, aka the abomination of desolation and 2. the Day of the Lord.


The son of perdition is revealed in the middle of the 70th week, per Daniel, (mid trib) - and then scriptures show that the second coming of Christ and the day of the Lord occur together, such as Zechariah 14:1 the day of the Lord comes, and so does Jesus with all the saints, in 14:5. (Day of the Lord, then rapture)


In Matthew 24. have the son of perdition in verse 15, the day of the lord in verse 29, and the second coming of Jesus in verse 30. (Mid trib rapture)


In Luke 21 we have the abomination of desolation in verse 20, the Day of the Lord in verse 25, and the rapture in verse 27. (Mid trib rapture)


In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Paul states:


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and byour gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Paul states that the second coming of Christ and our being gathered to be with Him, can’t happen until the son of perdition is revealed.


Note that the Day of the Lord is part of His second coming, not a separate event - so Paul isn’t talking about two separate events there, as many think.


This puts the rapture AT His second coming, AFTER the son of perdition is revealed - which happens in the middle of Daniels 70th week, per Daniel - right smack in the middle of the tribulation.


Now, for all those those who don’t accept that the Day of the Lord is simultaneous with the second coming of Christ, when we back up one chapter to 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 under the heading THE JUDGMENT AT CHRIST’S COMING - it shows unequivocally that at His coming, He comes with flaming fire, taking vengeance, and with destruction - which is what happens at the Day of the Lord.


Then there’s corroborating fact that Jesus warns us that BOTH the Day of the Lord, and His return, will come suddenly, as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 ; Revelation 16:15


Therefore scripture is clear that the rapture is at His second coming, after the son of perdition is revealed, and that the Day of the Lord is simultaneous with His second coming.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Please do not take what I say about the lie of pre-trib as though I am attacking or deriding anyone who follows that.
There is no need for such signalling, your words as you post speak on your behalf.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Much love!
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm looking for it, but I don't see where you explain why they would be troubled by someone telling them the Day of Christ had arrived. Why that would trouble them concerning being gathered together.

If they thought that the gathering together came after the revealing of the man of sin, after the arrival of the Day of Christ, then they would know they had moved measurably closer to that gathering, if that Day of Christ had arrived. The clock would now be ticking.

Not as untroubling concerning the circumstances in the world, thinking it's now the day of judgement! That part could be very troubling! But concerning being gathered, they would just say, It's just a matter of time now!



That's not what he says. He says, "That day will not come", what day? The day of Christ. Not the gathering to Christ, but the Day of Christ.

If you say, the rapture is also being called the day of Christ, that leaves you having to explain why they would be troubled by someone saying "the rapture is today". Me, I'd take a "wait and see" approach on that one.



I really appreciate your clarity!

Much love!

The answer to your question is found in modern English translations.

2Th 2:1 Now we ask you, brothers, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, and our gathering together to him,

2Th 2:2 not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.

Paul isn’t jumping topics mid-passage - . He is saying that unlike what some were claiming, the second coming of Christ and rapture has not already occurred, and will not come until the son of Perdition is revealed.

And as I said, all we have to do is go one chapter back, into 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7-10, under the heading that every bible I checked says THE JUDGMENT AT HIS COMING, to prove that His second coming and the day of the Lord are synonymous:

The Judgment at Christ's Coming

2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Ergo, the two events - the second coming, and Day of the Lord, are synonymous, not two separate occurrences.

Shalom Aleichem
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is the problem with Pretrib, and it is a serious offense. They read their theology into Scripture passages, and then concoct a prophetic scheme that just isn't in the Bible.

For myself, I've examined the different views in greater extent than most people I know. These sorts of statements seem to me to be flippant and trite. Shallow at best. But maybe that does describe more of those whom you've known and discussed these things with. But I should say not all.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The answer to your question is found in modern English translations.

2Th 2:1 Now we ask you, brothers, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, and our gathering together to him,

2Th 2:2 not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.

Paul isn’t jumping topics mid-passage - . He is saying that unlike what some were claiming, the second coming of Christ and rapture has not already occurred, and will not come until the son of Perdition is revealed.

And as I said, all we have to do is go one chapter back, into 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7-10, under the heading that every bible I checked says THE JUDGMENT AT HIS COMING, to prove that His second coming and the day of the Lord are synonymous:

The Judgment at Christ's Coming

2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Ergo, the two events - the second coming, and Day of the Lord, are synonymous, not two separate occurrences.

Shalom Aleichem
I'll look over again what you are saying here, but swapping from a less literal and more interpretive translation isn't the direction I move.

But I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. Your view is that the Thessalonian Christians were troubled because someone was telling them the Day of Christ - which is the rapture, had already happened, and they missed it? They were thinking they had missed a "pre-trib rapture"?

If I'm mistaken in your view just let me know, I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

Much love!
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,828
4,156
113
48
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You said: I told you I could answer, and it is simple. Because they were expecting to be gathered to Jesus before that Day. What other reason could there be?

Did you want to offer a different answer?

Much love!

The answer to your question is the following, which includes 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4:

Rapture at second coming, and day of the lord

The key timelines in establishing the mid trib rapture are: 1. the son of perdition, aka the abomination of desolation and 2. the Day of the Lord.

The son of perdition is revealed in the middle of the 70th week, per Daniel, (mid trib) - and then scriptures show that the second coming of Christ and the day of the Lord occur together, such as Zechariah 14:1the day of the Lord comes, and so does Jesus with all the saints, in 14:5. (Day of the Lord, then rapture)


WOW - No one said the Thessolinicans were troubled by 'being gathered together to Christ' - WOW
Where is your brain my brother - get it out of the gutter of pre-trib lies.

Are you unable to read and understand 1 Thess chapter 1 ????

WOW


In Matthew 24we have the son of perdition in verse 15, the day of the lord in verse 29, and the second coming of Jesus in verse 30. (Mid trib rapture)

In Luke 21 we have the abomination of desolation in verse 20, the Day of the Lord in verse 25, and the rapture in verse 27. (Mid trib rapture)

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Paul states:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and byour gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul states that the second coming of Christ and our being gathered to be with Him, can’t happen until the son of perdition is revealed.

Note: the Day of the Lord is part of His second coming, not a separate event - so Paul isn’t talking about two separate events there, as many think.

This puts the rapture AT His second coming, AFTER the son of perdition is revealed - which happens in the middle of Daniels 70th week, per Daniel - right smack in the middle of the tribulation.

Now, for all those those who don’t accept that the Day of the Lord is simultaneous with the second coming of Christ, when we back up one chapter to 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 under the heading THE JUDGMENT AT CHRIST’S COMING - it shows unequivocally that at His coming, He comes with flaming fire, taking vengeance, and with destruction - which is what happens at the Day of the Lord.

Then there’s corroborating fact that Jesus warns us that BOTH the Day of the Lord, and His return, will come suddenly, as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 ; Revelation 16:15

Therefore scripture establishes that 1. the rapture is at His second coming, after the son of perdition is revealed, and 2. that the Day of the Lord is simultaneous with the rapture.

The rapture is mid trib, pre mark, pre great tribulation, pre wrath, and premillennial, IMO.

Shalom Aleichem
I'm looking for it, but I don't see where you explain why they would be troubled by someone telling them the Day of Christ had arrived. Why that would trouble them concerning being gathered together.

If they thought that the gathering together came after the revealing of the man of sin, after the arrival of the Day of Christ, then they would know they had moved measurably closer to that gathering, if that Day of Christ had arrived. The clock would now be ticking.

Not as untroubling concerning the circumstances in the world, thinking it's now the day of judgement! That part could be very troubling! But concerning being gathered, they would just say, It's just a matter of time now!



That's not what he says. He says, "That day will not come", what day? The day of Christ. Not the gathering to Christ, but the Day of Christ.

If you say, the rapture is also being called the day of Christ, that leaves you having to explain why they would be troubled by someone saying "the rapture is today". Me, I'd take a "wait and see" approach on that one.



I really appreciate your clarity!

Much love!
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,828
4,156
113
48
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'll look over again what you are saying here, but swapping from a less literal and more interpretive translation isn't the direction I move.

But I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. Your view is that the Thessalonian Christians were troubled because someone was telling them the Day of Christ - which is the rapture, had already happened, and they missed it? They were thinking they had missed a "pre-trib rapture"?

If I'm mistaken in your view just let me know, I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

Much love!

There is no pre-trib view in scripture.
The Thessolinicans were it great tribulation, suffering persecution unto death. They were hurting real bad as anyone of us would.
Paul writes to encourage them concerning this 1 Thess ch1
No Pre-Trib rapture lies from Paul - PERIOD
1 Thess permanently establishes: #1 Christians will suffer TRIBULATION even some of us will DIE. - Uh, HELLO !!!
#2 When the Lord Returns He will punish those who harmed us
#3 Those of us who died in Christ will be resurrected at the Coming of the Lord.
#4 The Dead in Christ will rise FIRST
#5 The Rapture occurs AFTER the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.

2 Thess further nukes to ashes, pre-trib rubbish as the Thess were being told that (all of the above) had already occurred and they were 'LEFT BEHIND' - Uh, HELLO Again !!!!
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no pre-trib view in scripture.
The Thessolinicans were it great tribulation, suffering persecution unto death. They were hurting real bad as anyone of us would.
Paul writes to encourage them concerning this 1 Thess ch1
No Pre-Trib rapture lies from Paul - PERIOD
1 Thess permanently establishes: #1 Christians will suffer TRIBULATION even some of us will DIE. - Uh, HELLO !!!
#2 When the Lord Returns He will punish those who harmed us
#3 Those of us who died in Christ will be resurrected at the Coming of the Lord.
#4 The Dead in Christ will rise FIRST
#5 The Rapture occurs AFTER the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.

2 Thess further nukes to ashes, pre-trib rubbish as the Thess were being told that (all of the above) had already occurred and they were 'LEFT BEHIND' - Uh, HELLO Again !!!!

It’s not a salvation issue. There’s no need to be upset or angry at other/or mistaken eschatology.

When the general tribulation starts, pre tribbers have 3.5 years to figure out what went wrong, and why they weren’t raptured out.

However, the rapture is mid trib, IMO. The great tribulation of the last half is the time of Jacobs trouble, and the age of the gentiles is over at that time.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But he is absolutely right there that Pretrib has a greater worry, that they cannot come up with any biblical theology stating explicitly that the Rapture of the Church precedes the Tribulation.
There is no explicit statement of timing of the rapture at all in the Bible. Either way. There just isn't. So we have the same issue, you and I.

But only a proper understanding will show harmony in all respects.

Where we find conflict, and unanswered questions, for me, these are saying, look more deeply, lay aside conclusions and understand what the passages are saying.

Much love!
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'll look over again what you are saying here, but swapping from a less literal and more interpretive translation isn't the direction I move.

But I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. Your view is that the Thessalonian Christians were troubled because someone was telling them the Day of Christ - which is the rapture, had already happened, and they missed it? They were thinking they had missed a "pre-trib rapture"?

If I'm mistaken in your view just let me know, I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

Much love!

They were being told they missed the 2nd coming and rapture, yes.

Kind of like preterists today claiming the second coming and rapture are long over.

And 2 Thessalonians 1:1-10 still proves that the second coming and the day of the lord, are at the same time - then after establishing that fact in chapter 1, Paul says in the very next chapter that we won’t be gathered together with Jesus at His second coming/day of the Lord, until the son of perdition does his thing in the temple

Zechariah 14:1, day of the Lord - Zechariah 14:5 Jesus comes with all the saints.

Matthew 24:15 Son of perdition is revealed (mid trib event) 24:21 the great tribulation starts (mid trib starts the great trib) 24:29 the day of the lord 24:30; the second coming of Christ and a rapture.

Shalom Aleichem
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no explicit statement of timing of the rapture at all in the Bible. Either way. There just isn't. So we have the same issue, you and I.

You mean no timing given, other than that it comes after the son of perdition event, occurs?
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They were being told they missed the 2nd coming and rapture, yes.
How could you miss the second coming, given that "every eye will see Him?"

I think that they were being told that the Day of the LORD has come, that's what the present persecution was, and this was troubling them because they expected that they would have been raptured first before the Day of the LORD.

So Paul is assuring them, this isn't the Day of the LORD, that day won't come but these other things come first.

There would be no missing the second coming of Christ. The sun and moon and all the stars will be darkened, and only Christ will be light, I can only imagine a most dazzling light!

As far as the idea that the 'second coming' had happened, and the persecution was still continuing, Jesus had prophesied His return to be "immediately after" the tribulation of those days. In that they were in persecution, it is evident it could not be after Jesus' coming in power and glory.

We speak in terms of first coming and second coming, however, the Bible doesn't use those terms. Better to use Biblical terminology, at least, it seems to work out better for me.

Paul says in the very next chapter that we won’t be gathered together with Jesus at His second coming/day of the Lord, until the son of perdition does his thing in the temple
Would you quote the specific verse you see this in, maybe hightlight the particular words? I'd like to look at this.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You mean no timing given, other than that it comes after the son of perdition event, occurs?
No, no explicit timing statement at all.

For myself, it's indicated to me in a few passages, and brings harmony to a great many passages. When I examine other views, pre-wrath, post-trib, mid-trib, and "no rapture" (allegorical), I find irreconcilable conflicts with many other passages.

"That day", the day that won't come until the "apostasia" come first, and the man of sin be revealed, I believe this to be the Day of the LORD, a day of darkness and gloom.

Much love!