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Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Mantis, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Paul was correcting the notion of a secret Rapture, which is precisely what Pretribbers teach! Some Christian group was teaching that they were somehow an elite group bringing in the Kingdom of Christ, perhaps even stating that Christ had already appeared to them. Jesus had said that Christians should reject such a notion, knowing that he will come in full regalia, where every eye will see him, and the wicked would be completely vanquished. Secret comings are verboten!

    Paul had defined the thing being referred to as not simply a day of darkness and persecution, but more, the coming of the Lord to gather his Church. That is the thing, specifically, that Paul said Christians were claiming had been happening.

    In case this seems too weird, please recognize that various Christian cults through the ages have claimed this very thing, that God's Kingdom had presented the revelation of Christ to them, and that they had therefore presented Christ's Kingdom on earth through their elitist group. These range anywhere from the Jehovah's Witnesses to the Kingdom Now movement. I wouldn't say that those in the Kingdom Now movement are very extreme, but I would say that their theology is wrong.

    Right, Paul said there would be persecution first, just as Jesus had indicated we must all experience persecution as godly people. We must enter the Kingdom through tribulation. But Paul specifically indicated that Antichrist must come first--not just tribulation and persecution. Even more, he indicated that Christ will only come back at the time he does so to destroy Antichrist, the "one doomed to destruction." He will destroy him "with the breath of his mouth."
     
  2. David in NJ

    David in NJ Member

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  3. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    It’s amazing how people can be shown undeniable facts, yet deny them.

    Cognitive dissonance in action, perhaps.
     
  4. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    The entire 7 year shebang is Jacob's Trouble
     
  5. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    No. That is incorrect. It is jus for 3 1/2 years.
     
  6. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Why is there an argument here? How about because...

    It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. - Acts 1:7

    And Christ's council....

    42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24

    It is the will of God for us to watch for his return as if it could happen today...

    He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. - Revelation 22 the last two verses.
     
  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why the Rapture must be "secret" (meaning not visible to the unbelieving and ungodly world)? Because it is strictly for the saints. And it has absolutely nothing in common with the Second Coming of Christ.

    So first of all people need to understand the spiritual significance of the Resurrection/Rapture before they make any comments about a "secret" Rapture.

    It's like this. If you were having a birthday party for one of your children, would you invite your child's friends, or would you bring in children from anywhere and everywhere (and miles away) to celebrate with your child?
     
  8. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    If I had a party for my kids, it would be exclusive to their friends, but still would not be a "secret party!" There is no secrecy with Christ's Coming for the Church. It is plainly taught in the Gospel throughout the world. The world simply doesn't choose to believe it.

    So, as un-secret as it is, it will come as a surprise to the unbelieving, wicked world when it comes, because judgment will suddenly fall upon them. I'm sure we agree on this much.

    But I find the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming to be synonymous, with no biblical reason to separate them. They all use the same language and refer to the same sources. To separate them requires the imposition of a strange theology that isn't even in the Bible.

    Paul made it clear that the idea of an imminent or immanent Rapture is false doctrine. Antichrist, and antichrists, must precede the universal appearance of Christ to this world. He will come both to save his people, the Church, and to judge the world that is in full-scale rebellion against him.
     
  9. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    I hear this all the time. Pretribbers admit that their doctrine is not taught as a theology in the Scriptures. But they claim the same for Postribbers, when I don't believe that's true.

    Pretribbers admit that there is taught in the Scriptures a Postrib event. They call it the 2nd Coming. They just don't believe that anything is taught in the Bible that renders the 2nd Coming the exclusive time of Christ's Coming. They deny that the Bible explicitly prohibits a Pretrib Rapture of the Church.

    But I believe this happens in 3 places.
    1) Dan 7 provides the original blueprint for Christ's Coming as the Son of Man from the clouds, to defeat the Antichrist and to establish God's Kingdom on the earth. It is the time of saving God's People from their enemies.

    Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven... 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

    2) Jesus said that any feigned coming of Messiah before his universal revelation is prohibited.

    Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

    3) Paul said that Christ cannot come for his Church until the time comes to defeat the Antichrist.

    2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

    This is clear biblical theology for the Postribber. I'm sure you will deny they are such, but personally, they convinced me when I had been a Pretribber.
     
  10. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Mark, you're a real nice guy and a genuine Christian. Don't you think it's even possible that I was a Pretribber and then converted to Postrib out of genuine conviction? Of course you do, even if you think I was misled.

    But I wasn't misled. I was converted not by anybody, but only because I memorized 2 Thessalonians, and could not escape the realization that Paul was teaching Postrib!

    Some people argue things on a shallow level, but you and I probably can argue these things on a deeper level. I've been discussing these things since the late 70s, when I reconsidered whether my Postrib was correct or not.

    Let me just say this. I think I've heard most all of the arguments. I can sit back and objectively select what sounds more biblical to me. Most all of the confusing passages have finally become clear to me for the most part. I do think that misunderstanding of various passages can throw everything off, and make it hard to decide one way or another.

    I'm not really sure what makes you overwhelmingly convinced to be a Pretribber? Is it that so many teachers are Pretrib, or that you personally find it to be the stronger argument?
     
  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    It is scriptural that post-tribbers will come along...

    Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. -2 Peter 3:3-4

    And returning to pre-trib...

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10
     
    marks likes this.
  12. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    Except there’s no mark of the beast until the last 3.5 years.
     
  13. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Apparently you don't recognize that your quote from 2 Peter has Jesus coming in a Postrib setting? A secret Rapture does not take place at the same time the elements melt and the earth's works are burned up! Not unless you're a Postribber!

    Postribbers are not "scoffers," and I resent that insinuation on your part. We believe the Pretrib position is unbiblical because it is a fact--there is no Pretrib theology in the Bible.

    It is assumed to be a private revelation, read into the text. In other words, the proofs for Pretrib are purely subjective, and therefore not legitimate biblical teaching.

    My assumption is that the Holy Spirit spells out doctrine in black and white, and doesn't "suggest things," leaving interpretation up to human agencies. We must get our beliefs from clearly-articulated doctrinal statements in the Bible, and not read our beliefs into parables to say what we want them to say.
     
  14. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    And yet I believe I can show you that Paul said the second coming and rapture occurs after the mid trib event of the son of perdition being revealed, which doesn’t preclude a post trib rapture, but other evidence points to the second coming and rapture being shortly after the son of perdition is revealed, to whit:

    Rapture at the second coming, and the day of the lord together:

    The key timelines events in establishing the mid trib rapture are: 1. the son of perdition event, aka the abomination of desolation and 2. the Day of the Lord event.

    The evidence will show that the day of the Lord occurs with the second coming of Jesus, not separately.


    The son of perdition is revealed in the middle of the 70th week, per Daniel, (mid trib) - and the scriptures show that the second coming of Christ and the day of the Lord occur together, such as Zechariah 14:1. The day of the Lord comes, and then Jesus with all the saints, in 14:5.

    (The Day of the Lord, verse 14:1 - then the second coming of Jesus with the saints in 14:5)


    In Luke 21 we have a:the abomination of desolation in verse 20, b: the Day of the Lord in verse 25, and c: the rapture in verse 27. (Mid trib rapture)


    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Paul states:

    2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    Note that opinions vary on what the falling away may be, but we know for a fact when the son of perdition is revealed - in the middle of Daniels 70th week - at the mid trib point.


    Paul states that the second coming of Christ /day of the Lord, and our being gathered to be with Him, can’t happen until the son of perdition is revealed, in the middle of the tribulation.


    Note it will be shown that the Day of the Lord is part of His second coming, not a separate event - so Paul isn’t talking about two separate events, as many think.


    This puts the rapture AT His second coming, AFTER the son of perdition is revealed - which happens in the middle of Daniels 70th week, per Daniel - right smack in the middle of the tribulation.


    Now, for all those those who don’t accept that the Day of the Lord is simultaneous with the second coming of Christ, when we back up one chapter to 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 under the heading THE JUDGMENT AT CHRIST’S COMING - it shows unequivocally that at His coming, He comes with flaming fire, taking vengeance, and with destruction - which is what happens at the Day of the Lord:

    The Judgment at Christ's Coming

    2Th 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—

    2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

    2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

    2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

    2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

    2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

    Paul thus explained BEFORE the 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 verse about the coming of the Lord, that His coming is with vengeance, flaming fire, and destruction of the wicked, as He comes for the saints.

    Then there’s corroborating fact that Jesus warns us that BOTH the Day of the Lord, and His return, will come suddenly, as a thief in the night.

    1 Thessalonians 5:2 ; Revelation 16:15


    Therefore scripture is clear that the rapture is at His second coming, after the son of perdition is revealed, and that the Day of the Lord is simultaneous with His return.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021 at 2:16 AM
  15. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    Except the evidence is that the rapture is at Jesus second coming, simultaneously with the Day of the Lord - after - not before, the Son of perdition is revealed, if you peruse post #474.

    Shalom Aleichem
     
  16. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Post-tribbers... Don't know! And like Arthur Fonzerelli will never admit they are wrong!

     
  17. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    If this event were anything except pre-trib there would be no need for scripture to say he comes as a thief as it would be well announced!
     
  18. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    Except Jesus said He comes unexpectedly as a thief to those who are busy backsliding and not watching - such as those in a church that Jesus warns to repent:

    Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
     
  19. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    But...

    And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. - Acts 1:7

    As there are very good possibilities that I could be wrong, I watch daily for his return. Anyone who teaches otherwise risks losing the eternal souls of others.
     
  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    There is a heartwarming and helpful post!

    Much love!
     
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