Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[marks]

Let me just say this. I think I've heard most all of the arguments. I can sit back and objectively select what sounds more biblical to me. Most all of the confusing passages have finally become clear to me for the most part. I do think that misunderstanding of various passages can throw everything off, and make it hard to decide one way or another.

OK, Cool!

So then you know that rapture views are based more on a persons ecclesiology, and Israelology, than on end of age prophecies, would you agree with that?

How we understand "Israel", and how we understand the ekklesia, these will determine just how we read the prophecies.

Do you share @Curtis 's view that the reason for the Thessalonian church being troubled was that they were being told they had missed a pre-trib rapture? Just curious about that.

I'll revisit your post of the Scriptures that show post trib rapture.

When you say "post trib", do you mean it like the early church writers? Post tribulation, post wrath of God, post everything?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Paul was correcting the notion of a secret Rapture, which is precisely what Pretribbers teach!

You should know I'm not exactly the standard "pre-tribber", but then, as you must know, no two people understand the prophecies of the future in exactly the same way. At least not that I've ever seen.

It's true, there are lot's of very poor pre-trib arguments out there, some having nothing to do with anything. Call it a secret rapture, call it not secret, it happens fast, or so it seems. Maybe, we don't actually know. Only that our transformation is in the twinkling of an eye.

Secret? Who knows, and who cares?

Personally, I think it will happen during the earthquake of the sixth seal, which is the same earthquake when Gog/Magog et. al. invade the mountains of Israel, Ezekiel 38. When the dust settles, we're gone. And who knows? Lot's of people are gone. And lots are still here.

So for myself, there is no concern over a "secret rapture" and whether this violates anything.

I've found over the years that these different views collect baggage - unscriptural ideas which become interwoven sometimes without much notice. It's always good to identify these!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Paul had defined the thing being referred to as not simply a day of darkness and persecution, but more, the coming of the Lord to gather his Church.

Would you post the Scripture you see this in?

Much love!

 

[marks]

That is the thing, specifically, that Paul said Christians were claiming had been happening.

And how do you support this? Do you mean people were saying "secret raptures" were happening?

Much love!

 

[marks]

In case this seems too weird,

Nothing seems too strange to me. My one concern is what the Bible itself teaches. People say strange things, and many things in the Bible seems strange to me, but not as strange the more I understand.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Right, Paul said there would be persecution first, just as Jesus had indicated we must all experience persecution as godly people. We must enter the Kingdom through tribulation. But Paul specifically indicated that Antichrist must come first--not just tribulation and persecution. Even more, he indicated that Christ will only come back at the time he does so to destroy Antichrist, the "one doomed to destruction." He will destroy him "with the breath of his mouth."

So then you are equating the gathering to Christ with the Day of the LORD. These seems central to your argument on this passage. Is that right? I think you had another post with the passages you see that in? I'll go look.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why the Rapture must be "secret" (meaning not visible to the unbelieving and ungodly world)? Because it is strictly for the saints. And it has absolutely nothing in common with the Second Coming of Christ.

So first of all people need to understand the spiritual significance of the Resurrection/Rapture before they make any comments about a "secret" Rapture.

It's like this. If you were having a birthday party for one of your children, would you invite your child's friends, or would you bring in children from anywhere and everywhere (and miles away) to celebrate with your child?

I think "secret rapture" is a red herring used by pre-trib opponents. Secret, not secret, if someone is suddenly gone, the only secret is what happened. Even if we slowly rise into the sky, together, in clouds, the secret is, why did all those people float up into the clouds?

No, the objection is, there is no secret coming in glory. But that's even a tautology. A secret coming in power and glory? But there is no "secret coming in power and glory" so your "secret rapture" is invalid.

No, faulting pre-tribbers based on "there is no 'secret rapture'" is to import this idea of no secret coming in power and glory (I know, everyone says, "second coming", everyone, that is, except the Bible), which is to use the assertion Pre-Trib timing is not valid because there is no secret coming of Christ - this is circular reasoning, using the assertion in the proof. The unseen part is the presuppostion that the rapture = coming in power and glory. Or, the most common error, to see Israel as a nation at the end of the age the same as the ekklesia, those called out from all nations after Israel rejected Jesus. These are two different entities. National Israel, and the ekklesia, the called out ones.

So first of all people need to understand the spiritual significance of the Resurrection/Rapture before they make any comments about a "secret" Rapture.

I agree, we need to understand some other more foundational doctrines before we will understand end times.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But I believe this happens in 3 places.
1) Dan 7 provides the original blueprint for Christ's Coming as the Son of Man from the clouds, to defeat the Antichrist and to establish God's Kingdom on the earth. It is the time of saving God's People from their enemies.

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven... 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

This is all very well established and particular towards Israel. You say, saving "God's People", that's very inclusive.

We can exclude anyone who is not present on earth at the time, for whatever reason, whether it be death or rapture. That leads is into again the identification of National Israel, and whether such a thing matters - I'd say yes, you'd say no, If I'm understanding.

Saving God's people . . . the chosen nation Israel, "and so all Israel will be saved"? Or all the Christians who have come to faith and been reborn? So we come to the purpose of this time of testing for those who live on the earth.

But seriously though, are prophecies in the OT prophecies of the ekklesia, considering that the ekklesia was a mystery revealed by Paul, that had been kept hidden previously?

Jesus returns and saves His chosen nation from annihiliation at the hands of the beast, and regathers all the ones scattered back to the promised land. This is very well established in prophecy, in Ezekiel, in Isaiah, in Joel. I forget all the places there are so many. And with very particular and specific wording.

We've looked at those before, a few, if memory serves, the "seed of Israel" I think was a key phrase.

It really comes down to who is the church, and who is Israel.

Much love!

 

[marks]

2) Jesus said that any feigned coming of Messiah before his universal revelation is prohibited.

Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

As previously stated, saying, "Jesus' coming in power and glory will not be secret, so the rapture isn't secret, so the rapture isn't different from His coming in power and glory . . . well, to simplify . . . I'm not saying Jesus showed up in Brooklyn, or something like that.

No one is saying, He's in the desert, let's all go.

But I'm saying when the time is right, we will be caught up into the sky to meet with Jesus, and there is no reason to have to try to connect that to His coming in power and glory, considering all that is said in the Bible that conflicts with that.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

But...

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. - Acts 1:7

As there are very good possibilities that I could be wrong, I watch daily for his return. Anyone who teaches otherwise risks losing the eternal souls of others.

There is no risk in pursuing truth from the Scriptures. Doubting a man-made doctrine is what we should do. If the Scriptures do not teach Pretrib, then it is a man-made doctrine. And I can assure you that Pretrib is not taught, as a doctrine, in the Bible.

The reason we are told not to focus on times and seasons is because this is the domain of God. It is because we are to leave life, and its ordering, to God, and only involve ourselves to the degree we can. To excessively interfere in the processes God Himself has established is to resist Him, and to try to play God.

This doesn't mean we can't know the general outline of history. We are given to know enough to be able to become partners with God in His plan of redemption. But ordering history is the domain of God, and we need to leave that up to Him.

 

[marks]

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

This is clear biblical theology for the Postribber. I'm sure you will deny they are such, but personally, they convinced me when I had been a Pretribber.

That day. The day of the Lord, or, the day of Christ, depending on your Bible version.

Again, that puts the assertion into the proof. Of course that day won't come until these things, just the same, that day is the Day of the LORD, and I'm talking about our being gathered together to Jesus. There is His coming, and there is our being gathered together. The clear outline to me in this chapter is that the gathering still comes first, and the day of the Lord will come after the man of sin be revealed, and after the "apostasia".

Apostasia . . . used 1 other time in the NT, Acts, "teaching departure from Moses".

Apo . . . away from, Stasia . . . stand. Away from standing = departure. This is Classical Greek, like in Aristophanes' play "The Birds". Do you know the reference?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Pretribbers admit that there is taught in the Scriptures a Postrib event. They call it the 2nd Coming.

They should call it His coming in power and great glory, if they want to use Biblical terminology. I put a strong emphasis on sticking with the words the Bible uses for things, as using other words more easily allows other ideas to slip in unnoticed, I think.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

OK, Cool!

So then you know that rapture views are based more on a persons ecclesiology, and Israelology, than on end of age prophecies, would you agree with that?

How we understand "Israel", and how we understand the ekklesia, these will determine just how we read the prophecies.

Do you share @Curtis 's view that the reason for the Thessalonian church being troubled was that they were being told they had missed a pre-trib rapture? Just curious about that.

I'll revisit your post of the Scriptures that show post trib rapture.

When you say "post trib", do you mean it like the early church writers? Post tribulation, post wrath of God, post everything?

Much love!

Yes, I'm post-everything except post-millennial! One coming of Christ on the last day. On that day, two things will happen--the righteous will be delivered, and the wicked will be judged. Same day. It will be the beginning of a new age, the Kingdom of Christ.

I do agree with you that our view of Israel determines whether we are Pretrib or Postrib. That's precisely why Darby established Pretrib, as part of his Dispensationalist outlook. He separated Israel and the Church, just as we separate the Law and Grace.

Darby apparently saw no conflict in setting Israel forth as it was in its OT setting, under the Law. And when one sees a different history for Israel than for the Church, reestablishing a legal structure that does not belong in the Church, then there is a basis for calling the Church out before a 7 years period in which Israel reestablishes its legal superstructure.

As you explain it, I would share Curtis' view of the problem in Thessalonica, in which the Christians there thought Christ may have been revealed, in an eschatological sense, to a cult group of Christians, thinking they were establishing God's Kingdom on earth. And I point out that such a view can be understood in Christian history, when various pseudo-Christian groups arise, claiming that Christ has come into their movement in a kind of eschatological sense, or perhaps is about to soon arise among them. I fit Pretrib in this category because it stimulates a regular proclamation of Christ's imminent coming, constructing all kinds of novel scenarios, pretending to know the future in detail.

Though I do have this very negative view of Pretrib, I would be quick to admit that Dispensationalism contains many truths, as well. And this explains for me why God has allowed this division in the Church among good Christians. There are truths on both sides. Dispensationalism rightly focuses on the role Israel is playing in the endtimes. And I would agree with that. It also calls attention to the importance of a *national* Christianity, which is what the revival of a national Israel represents ideally.

 

[marks]

On that day, two things will happen--the righteous will be delivered, and the wicked will be judged

The sheep goats judgment? Is that right?

Much love!

 

[marks]

He separated Israel and the Church,

Paul did that exhaustively.

Much love!

 

[marks]

As you explain it, I would share Curtis' view of the problem in Thessalonica, in which the Christians there thought Christ may have been revealed, in an eschatological sense, to a cult group of Christians, thinking they were establishing God's Kingdom on earth. And I point out that such a view can be understood in Christian history, when various pseudo-Christian groups arise, claiming that Christ has come into their movement in a kind of eschatological sense, or perhaps is about to soon arise among them. I fit Pretrib in this category because it stimulates a regular proclamation of Christ's imminent coming, constructing all kinds of novel scenarios, pretending to know the future in detail.

You two are the first for me, the first post-tribbers who claim that pre-trib rapture was being taught in the early church.

So there is always something new!



Much love!

 

[marks]

pretending to know the future in detail.

Yeah.

 

[Curtis]

But...

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. - Acts 1:7

As there are very good possibilities that I could be wrong, I watch daily for his return. Anyone who teaches otherwise risks losing the eternal souls of others.

Except you’re comparing apples to oranges.

In Acts 1:7 they asked this:

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

But in Matthew 24 they specifically asked what would be the signs of His coming and He answered:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The sheep goats judgment? Is that right?

Much love!

In all honesty Matt 25 has never been an issue for me. It's just one of many passages that indicate that when Christ comes back the world will have been judged, leaving people in two places, either in good standing with Christ or outside of Christ's orbit. It isn't a matter of creating a prophetic map, replete with various Scriptures fitting in here or there.

Generally speaking, all the references to Christ's Coming portray people in either of two camps, either saved or not. The saved will be with Christ forever. And those outside of Christ will live separate from him forever.

The way this passage is portrayed is in typical language of OT prophecy, depicting the Hope of Israel. It will be a time in which the nation finally becomes spiritual again, never more to lapse into carnality and idolatry. Never again will the nation indulge in spiritual adultery.

So Jesus brings the nations together before him at his Coming, to determine the matter of delivering the saints from this wicked world. And instead of portraying Israel as altogether righteous, roughly half is portrayed as making the right choice, while the other half does not. It is an Israel divided, before establishing her as a nation united by faith. Some have to be removed.

 

[marks]

In all honesty Matt 25 has never been an issue for me. It's just one of many passages that indicate that when Christ comes back the world will have been judged, leaving people in two places, either in good standing with Christ or outside of Christ's orbit. It isn't a matter of creating a prophetic map, replete with various Scriptures fitting in here or there.

Generally speaking, all the references to Christ's Coming portray people in either of two camps, either saved or not. The saved will be with Christ forever. And those outside of Christ will live separate from him forever.

So then the sheep/goats is more parable to you? Is that the idea?

Much love!