Why I believe in the rapture.

[Marty fox]

The day of the lord is not a harvest, tts a day of vengeance and death by flaming fire - do you REALLY think that will take Jesus a thousand years to do?

And since the sun goes dark on the day of the lord, do you REALLY think there’s a thousand years of darkness during the millennium?

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light.

Isa 13:11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.



The millennial reign of Jesus is to show all creation, especially all the angels, fallen and unfallen, , the difference between life on earth when satan was the god of this world ever since Adam - with all the war, hate, evil, suffering, pain, misery and disease - and the world with Jesus ruling the nations for a thousand years, so there will be no doubt that sentencing Satan into the lake of fire - which happens at the end of the millennium - is completely fair and just.

That is why Satan is bound for those thousand years.

So do you actually think that satan bound would take all of that away?

Jesus reigns because of who He is not because satan is bound

 

[Naomi25]

Curious what your perspective is on
2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: [15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

first death?

Galatians 6:14-15 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. [15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


First death?
What of the second which will not hurt those of the first crucified with Christ Romans 8:10-13 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. [12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. [13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Suffer no hurt?)


Romans 6:9-11 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. [10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. [11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Hebrews 9:27-And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: [28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

? With all due respect in saying the first death is when we go into a coffin and are buried …what of crucified with Christ as the first (once to die) and the first resurrection being “alive unto God.”?

Hi! Well, I suppose one could argue that the ‘first death’ is being ‘crucified with Christ’. But, from my perspective (which means it could be wrong, I acknowledge), Revelation 20 outright tells us that the ‘second death’ is the lake of fire…the eternal ‘death’ of judgment. We know that all men, with the exception of those alive at Christ’s return, will experience physical death, even those who are Christians. So, if we are to count ‘crucifixion with Christ’ as a death, then technically the lake of fire would have to be the third death, would it not?
So, we have to either appoint the first death as either us being ‘crucified with Christ’, or the event where our physical bodies die.
My take on Rev 20 is that we are being told that if we are in Christ, we don’t need to fear the ‘second death’. The implication of that is, people outside of Christ DO need to fear it. Except, if the ‘first death’ is dying with Christ…these people have not died that ‘first death’, which means the ‘second death’ for them is, in fact, ‘the first’. (Sorry if this is confusing, I’m trying to explain it as simply as I can).
The point being, for the second death to be consistently called and feared as the ‘second’ death…the judgment, then it makes most sense, to me, that the first death, experienced by all, is the physical death no one can avoid.
As Christians, we know physical death still awaits us. But we have confidence that that death is not the end, nor the one to really fear. The ‘death’ one must fear is the lake of fire, and those in Christ need not fear it or experience it.
Hope that makes sense!

 

[Naomi25]

My point is those with the second birth in the Holy Spirit are also not touched by the second death even without the first resurrection. Unless of course one plans on rejecting God.


So it is not semantics. Being born of the Holy Spirit is already passing from death to life. The first resurrection happens when the soul leaves this body and enters the permanent incorruptible body in Paradise.

If the ‘outcome’ is the same, for both ‘born again’ and ‘first resurrection’, then what makes you either sure, or able to dismiss the first as being the second?
If you admit that ‘new life in Christ’ will see one safe from the second death, then biblically, according to Rev 20, you have just defined the first resurrection. To dismiss new spiritual life in Christ as the first resurrection, you would need something rather concrete in saying it is not, or could not be. I don’t think you’ve provided either.
Which means all you have is an admission that ‘new life in Christ’ means you don’t need to fear the second death. Which is looking mightily like my point.

The point is that every time the word first is mentioned it means physical, it is not a when, but can only deal with the physical body.

.

Says who? According to whom? Applied from which verse?
If you can show me something, anything that tells us that “the first time the word is mentioned it means physical” then I’ll entertain the idea you might have a point. Until then, it seems an opinion based on hope alone.

.
When the term second is mentioned it deals with the spirit. The second birth is by the Holy Spirit. The second death is the soul and spirit cast into the Lake of Fire. The second resurrection would be the soul and spirit being brought out of the Lake of Fire after the Second Death. It is not a matter of when. It is a matter of how.

Again, you might think that sounds lovely and rational, but I don’t think you can back that up via scripture.
Who says the ‘second death’, the lake of fire, is only spiritual? If it were only spiritual, why does the bible talk about the “Unjust” being “resurrected” into that eternal punishment? Resurrection, according to you, the ‘first time’ is physical. So, what? They’re being raised from the dead physically, only to straight away loose that physical body to be punished spiritually for all time? There goes the rationality of that thought, sorry.
If the Unjust are being raised in a resurrection of their own, only to be thrown into the lake of fire, it means their punishment is quite physical. Besides, nowhere are we told that eternal punishment is for ‘souls’ or ‘spirits’ alone. The information we have is that the unjust get a resurrection as well. Which means they get something different from what they current have in death.

. The GWT is not really a when either. It is not even in time. It is after this current heaven and earth pass, which to us places it after the end of time, but not in time. The only thing that does exist is the throne. No where do your verses state we have to wait until time is no more to receive our eternal life. If you are waiting for the "hour to come", it is definitely not the non-literal hour that does not even exist, is it? If it is not a literal hour, and Jesus pointed out it was already there, then it is ongoing from the time Jesus spoke, until time stops.

Who says time stops? Where in scripture does it say that time will stop? In point of fact in Rev 22 we are told that in the New Jerusalem the tree of Life will bear its fruit “each month”. Does that sound like time stops? Nope. It sounds like we’ll have seasons, and months, which means time passed. Time might not mean the same thing to us, if we have eternal life, but I expect it will still be. The reasons for that are…we are human, and will still be. Only God is outside of time, having created it. For us to be outside of time would for us to hold attributes that are God’s alone.

 

[Naomi25]

It was years after I figured that out from the Bible before I found out anyone else thought that.

Much love!

Me too! It’s sort of a shame that much of the Jewish traditional understandings of scripture have been done away with in the Western-ising of the Bible.
I don’t think it changes the central gospel tenets of what Christ taught…but we loose so much, I think, when we don’t or can’t look at it with the perspective of the audience it was written to (and by, largely).

 

[Naomi25]

Does Satan decieve the Nations while being bound or after he is loosed from the pit? Are you claiming God is being vague and we have no clue how long Satan will be bound?

We can see WHAT Satan was being bound against, specifically, by looking at what he DOES, the moment he is released.

Revelation 20:7-9
[7] And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison [8] and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. [9] And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

“Will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth”. Now, despite what you said before, I do trust you recognize the incredibly obvious use of ‘four corners of the earth’ to illustrate the whole earth. A phrase very similar used in Matt 24:30: “from the four winds of heaven”, in reference to the angels gathering all the elect on earth.
So, when Satan is released, the first thing he does is deceive ALL nations into combining their forces TO BATTLE. That’s rather specific, is it not? It’s not just ‘little whispered to bring about instability in Iran’. No, its a concerted campaign design to bring the whole world against something. Against what? “The camp of the Saints and the beloved City”. The people of God, that’s who. Be they in the promised land, or wherever they may reside.

As far as having any idea as to how long Satan will be bound…well, that would go back to Christ telling us that no one knows the day or hour, wouldn’t it? We could suppose, given the times and increased persecution against Christians, suppose at some point that Satan had been released, but as we know from history, things can always get better, and worse.

But that’s not necessarily the point of this passage…knowing the times or seasons when this will take place. It’s given to us so that as Christians we’ll know. We’ll know 2 things: the spiritual battle is very real and Satans hate for us is tremendous. And despite any persecution his people might face, as terrible as it could be, Satan will ultimately fail and be beaten by ‘fire from heaven’. We have triumphed by the blood of the Lamb. Thus is the hope of the whole book.

.
Revelation 20:7

7 When the thousand years are over, the Adversary will be set free from his prison.

Was he decieving the nations before that point?

8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth.

Why do you think Satan was bound? It was to prevent any influence from Satan, period.


This is not a Hollywood movie where the gang leader still controls the gang from behind bars. Satan literally has to wait 1000 years, and only then can he once again start to decieve any one.

Who says?
Truly…where does it say that Satan will be bound against everything? Against acting in any way. Against communicating with his minions. It really doesn’t. Which means you just have to suppose that the ‘binding’ of Satan is all encompassing for that time period. We know quite clearly from the book of Job that God is full well capable of placing binding restrictions on the actions of Satan.

Look. I’m not saying that I’m right. I very well might not be, my interpretation of the passage could be way off. But I’m not wrong in saying that you, too, are making assumptions and logic leaps from the text. And insisting he can’t function in any way while bound is simply not in the text. And also insisting that the 1000 years must be a strictly literal time period also has interpretive problems, given the book its found in. But, as I said, that’s a whole other conversation!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hi! Well, I suppose one could argue that the ‘first death’ is being ‘crucified with Christ’. But, from my perspective (which means it could be wrong, I acknowledge), Revelation 20 outright tells us that the ‘second death’ is the lake of fire…the eternal ‘death’ of judgment. We know that all men, with the exception of those alive at Christ’s return, will experience physical death, even those who are Christians. So, if we are to count ‘crucifixion with Christ’ as a death, then technically the lake of fire would have to be the third death, would it not?
So, we have to either appoint the first death as either us being ‘crucified with Christ’, or the event where our physical bodies die.
My take on Rev 20 is that we are being told that if we are in Christ, we don’t need to fear the ‘second death’. The implication of that is, people outside of Christ DO need to fear it. Except, if the ‘first death’ is dying with Christ…these people have not died that ‘first death’, which means the ‘second death’ for them is, in fact, ‘the first’. (Sorry if this is confusing, I’m trying to explain it as simply as I can).
The point being, for the second death to be consistently called and feared as the ‘second’ death…the judgment, then it makes most sense, to me, that the first death, experienced by all, is the physical death no one can avoid.
As Christians, we know physical death still awaits us. But we have confidence that that death is not the end, nor the one to really fear. The ‘death’ one must fear is the lake of fire, and those in Christ need not fear it or experience it.
Hope that makes sense!

I do get what you are saying. For me I question “dead to sin” because what is blessed are those of the first resurrection”, if not first they are dead with Him in the likeness of His death, (dead unto sin) and raised up “alive unto God” seated with Christ where the second death has no power over them suffering no hurt.

you said: “So, if we are to count ‘crucifixion with Christ’ as a death, then technically the lake of fire would have to be the third death, would it not?” Exactly. So we don’t count the ‘crucifixion with Christ’ where by His body you were made ‘dead unto sin’ where the grave holds no power, or sting(hurt)?

You said “Except, if the ‘first death’ is dying with Christ…these people have not died that ‘first death’, which means the ‘second death’ for them is, in fact, ‘the first’.” Exactly. I question He came to condemn all sin in all flesh, had he not come they would not known their sin…so you are saying since they didn’t hear He is the first and last where God said you are free from death in the Son to live unto God and to bring forth fruits unto Him…these people have not died that ‘first death’, which means the ‘second death’ for them is, in fact, ‘the first’.” loss. 1 Thessalonians 5:4 KJV
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

then we say ‘crucified with Christ” doesn’t count as dead unto sin by His body. Because they still await the first?2 John 1:7-9 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. [8] Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. [9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

What do you consider your first death?

Another question would be concerning 1 Corinthians 15:55-57 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? [56] The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. [57] But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

in the above do we say this verse pertains to physical death where “the body is dead” and buried or does this verse pertain to the second death? Which death is spoken of that “stings”. when I think of ‘sting’ it sounds hurtful. When looking up “sting” it connects to prick which makes me think of Jesus Christ telling Paul it is hard to kick against the pricks. The sting of death is sin. Hebrews 2:13-15 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. [14] Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; [15] And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The trials and tribulations of Christians are not the same as "the Tribulation". Which will be a unique event in world history. So you are rather confused.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

The world is approach this period sooner than expected.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again because it has not been refuted: Jesus defined the period of "great tribulation" as the *Jewish Diaspora of the NT era.* This is unmistakably laid out by Jesus in Luke 21.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Dan 12.1 is simply saying the same thing, that at the time when Israel's eternal demise looks certain (70 AD), Michael will arise to keep Israel alive until the time of her restoration. God has kept the Jewish People alive as a people for 2000 years, and will continue to do so, through every threat of their eternal demise. Hitler could not succeed in their genocide. Nobody will succeed, including the Antichrist.

The "time of trouble" for the Jewish People began when they rejected Jesus as a nation. But God will not destroy them. And He is saving a remnant out of that people in every generation. Ultimately, when Christ comes back, he will save a remnant and make them into a full godly nation once again. This is my belief, and it is based on Luke 21.20-24.

 

[Keraz]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again because it has not been refuted: Jesus defined the period of "great tribulation" as the *Jewish Diaspora of the NT era.* This is unmistakably laid out by Jesus in Luke 21.

Yes; the Jews have had tribulation; pogroms and the Holocaust, etc.
Their troubles were prophesied, as they would be reviled and persecuted as they live among the nations. Lamentations 1:3, Romans 2:17-24
But that is not and cannot be the Great Tribulation of God's wrath against the ungodly, yet to come during the final 42 months of this Church age. Revelation 6:12 to Revelation 19:10 describe events yet to happen.

The "time of trouble" for the Jewish People began when they rejected Jesus as a nation. But God will not destroy them. And He is saving a remnant out of that people in every generation. Ultimately, when Christ comes back, he will save a remnant and make them into a full godly nation once again. This is my belief, and it is based on Luke 21.20-24.

Yes, a remnant of the Jews will join with their brethren, who are all the Christian peoples. from every tribe, race, nation and language will go to live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5
The new nation of Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5

 

[Naomi25]

I do get what you are saying. For me I question “dead to sin” because what is blessed are those of the first resurrection”, if not first they are dead with Him in the likeness of His death, (dead unto sin) and raised up “alive unto God” seated with Christ where the second death has no power over them suffering no hurt.

you said: “So, if we are to count ‘crucifixion with Christ’ as a death, then technically the lake of fire would have to be the third death, would it not?” Exactly. So we don’t count the ‘crucifixion with Christ’ where by His body you were made ‘dead unto sin’ where the grave holds no power, or sting(hurt)?

You said “Except, if the ‘first death’ is dying with Christ…these people have not died that ‘first death’, which means the ‘second death’ for them is, in fact, ‘the first’.” Exactly. I question He came to condemn all sin in all flesh, had he not come they would not known their sin…so you are saying since they didn’t hear He is the first and last where God said you are free from death in the Son to live unto God and to bring forth fruits unto Him…these people have not died that ‘first death’, which means the ‘second death’ for them is, in fact, ‘the first’.” loss. 1 Thessalonians 5:4 KJV
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Forgive me, I seem to be misunderstanding your point. I thought you WERE suggesting that the ‘crucifixion with Christ’ ought to count as a death. Here it almost seems you are not…? So…are you therefore saying that if we cannot count it as a death, neither can we count new life in him as a resurrection? (Sorry, just trying to establish where you’re trying to come from). If you could please clarify a little more simply what you think as the first/second death, etc, that would be helpful to the conversation.

.
then we say ‘crucified with Christ” doesn’t count as dead unto sin by His body. Because they still await the first?2 John 1:7-9 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. [8] Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. [9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

What do you consider your first death?

Again, I’m a little confused as to what exactly you’re arguing for.
But, as far as I can understand biblically, on this matter. Believing in Christ doesn’t mean you have a death and then life (spiritually). Without Christ we ARE spiritually dead. We therefore move from death to life.
I suppose one could say that those without Christ continue in their spiritually ‘dead’ state until ‘physical death’ comes upon them. Would that, perhaps, make it, theologically, one and the same death? If there is not state of life, or resurrection interrupting that ‘death’…?
But, again, for Christians, when I consider scripture and I see that the lake of fire is clearly the 2nd death, and I know that my status in Christ now is alive, then I can assume nothing more than physical death as the 1st death.

.
Another question would be concerning 1 Corinthians 15:55-57 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? [56] The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. [57] But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

in the above do we say this verse pertains to physical death where “the body is dead” and buried or does this verse pertain to the second death? Which death is spoken of that “stings”. when I think of ‘sting’ it sounds hurtful. When looking up “sting” it connects to prick which makes me think of Jesus Christ telling Paul it is hard to kick against the pricks. The sting of death is sin. Hebrews 2:13-15 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. [14] Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; [15] And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

I would say: both. As Christians we most certainly don’t fear the second death. But physical death holds no real victory over us as well, we know what lies on the other side and it is our victorious Lord and resurrection.
Consider for a moment, about the 1 Cor 15 passage. Just above it we are told that at Christ’s return (which is the end) he will hand the kingdom over to the father after defeating all powers and authorities. The last of which is death. We know the ‘death’ spoken of here must be the 1st death, rather than the second, because the second death is eternal punishment. “Death”…which we must understand to be the first…physical death…is thrown INTO the lake of fire…the second death.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Forgive me, I seem to be misunderstanding your point. I thought you WERE suggesting that the ‘crucifixion with Christ’ ought to count as a death. Here it almost seems you are not…? So…are you therefore saying that if we cannot count it as a death, neither can we count new life in him as a resurrection? (Sorry, just trying to establish where you’re trying to come from). If you could please clarify a little more simply what you think as the first/second death, etc, that would be helpful to the conversation.


Again, I’m a little confused as to what exactly you’re arguing for.
But, as far as I can understand biblically, on this matter. Believing in Christ doesn’t mean you have a death and then life (spiritually). Without Christ we ARE spiritually dead. We therefore move from death to life.
I suppose one could say that those without Christ continue in their spiritually ‘dead’ state until ‘physical death’ comes upon them. Would that, perhaps, make it, theologically, one and the same death? If there is not state of life, or resurrection interrupting that ‘death’…?
But, again, for Christians, when I consider scripture and I see that the lake of fire is clearly the 2nd death, and I know that my status in Christ now is alive, then I can assume nothing more than physical death as the 1st death.


I would say: both. As Christians we most certainly don’t fear the second death. But physical death holds no real victory over us as well, we know what lies on the other side and it is our victorious Lord and resurrection.
Consider for a moment, about the 1 Cor 15 passage. Just above it we are told that at Christ’s return (which is the end) he will hand the kingdom over to the father after defeating all powers and authorities. The last of which is death. We know the ‘death’ spoken of here must be the 1st death, rather than the second, because the second death is eternal punishment. “Death”…which we must understand to be the first…physical death…is thrown INTO the lake of fire…the second death.

thank you for responding but I’d prefer not to go any further on it. It is not you but me. It is all very confusing to me. At this point I’m grasping and deciding to let it go.

 

[farouk]

Forgive me, I seem to be misunderstanding your point. I thought you WERE suggesting that the ‘crucifixion with Christ’ ought to count as a death. Here it almost seems you are not…? So…are you therefore saying that if we cannot count it as a death, neither can we count new life in him as a resurrection? (Sorry, just trying to establish where you’re trying to come from). If you could please clarify a little more simply what you think as the first/second death, etc, that would be helpful to the conversation.


Again, I’m a little confused as to what exactly you’re arguing for.
But, as far as I can understand biblically, on this matter. Believing in Christ doesn’t mean you have a death and then life (spiritually). Without Christ we ARE spiritually dead. We therefore move from death to life.
I suppose one could say that those without Christ continue in their spiritually ‘dead’ state until ‘physical death’ comes upon them. Would that, perhaps, make it, theologically, one and the same death? If there is not state of life, or resurrection interrupting that ‘death’…?
But, again, for Christians, when I consider scripture and I see that the lake of fire is clearly the 2nd death, and I know that my status in Christ now is alive, then I can assume nothing more than physical death as the 1st death.


I would say: both. As Christians we most certainly don’t fear the second death. But physical death holds no real victory over us as well, we know what lies on the other side and it is our victorious Lord and resurrection.
Consider for a moment, about the 1 Cor 15 passage. Just above it we are told that at Christ’s return (which is the end) he will hand the kingdom over to the father after defeating all powers and authorities. The last of which is death. We know the ‘death’ spoken of here must be the 1st death, rather than the second, because the second death is eternal punishment. “Death”…which we must understand to be the first…physical death…is thrown INTO the lake of fire…the second death.

@Naomi25 1 Corinthians 15 is a glorious passage indeed! and l love how the victory in verse 57 is linked with the 'Therefore...' in verse 58, where Paul exhorts his readers to be steadfast and always abounding in the work of the Lord, because our labour is not in vain in Him.

 

[Timtofly]

If the ‘outcome’ is the same, for both ‘born again’ and ‘first resurrection’, then what makes you either sure, or able to dismiss the first as being the second?
If you admit that ‘new life in Christ’ will see one safe from the second death, then biblically, according to Rev 20, you have just defined the first resurrection. To dismiss new spiritual life in Christ as the first resurrection, you would need something rather concrete in saying it is not, or could not be. I don’t think you’ve provided either.
Which means all you have is an admission that ‘new life in Christ’ means you don’t need to fear the second death. Which is looking mightily like my point.

Because the change in mid air at the Second Coming is both the first death and first resurrection at the same time.

It is the meaning of Enoch being translated. When a soul passes from this corruptible body to the permanent incorruptible body in Paradise, we call that death. That is the first death. The soul and body transfer may be peaceful without any pain. Those burned at the stake, did not have a peaceful death, but they endured to the end, and still passed from death unto life, knowing they escaped the Second Death.

Says who? According to whom? Applied from which verse?
If you can show me something, anything that tells us that “the first time the word is mentioned it means physical” then I’ll entertain the idea you might have a point. Until then, it seems an opinion based on hope alone.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The water is the womb. The Holy Spirit is the birth into the family of God. Flesh is the first of everything physical. The Holy Spirit is the second of everything spiritual.

You have to be born of flesh, or you would not even exist. You have to be born of the Holy Spirit or you would not exist in God's point of view.

Those thrown into the lake of fire hear this from God, "Depart from Me, I never knew you". That is not the general sense of God's omniscience. That is in the spiritual sense of one's name written in the Lamb's book of life.

Again, you might think that sounds lovely and rational, but I don’t think you can back that up via scripture.
Who says the ‘second death’, the lake of fire, is only spiritual? If it were only spiritual, why does the bible talk about the “Unjust” being “resurrected” into that eternal punishment? Resurrection, according to you, the ‘first time’ is physical. So, what? They’re being raised from the dead physically, only to straight away loose that physical body to be punished spiritually for all time? There goes the rationality of that thought, sorry.
If the Unjust are being raised in a resurrection of their own, only to be thrown into the lake of fire, it means their punishment is quite physical. Besides, nowhere are we told that eternal punishment is for ‘souls’ or ‘spirits’ alone. The information we have is that the unjust get a resurrection as well. Which means they get something different from what they current have in death.

You are the one claiming the dead in Revelation 20:12 have been resurrected, when it never mentions resurrection one time. You are adding to the verses a physical resurrection. John claims the dead are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Who says time stops? Where in scripture does it say that time will stop? In point of fact in Rev 22 we are told that in the New Jerusalem the tree of Life will bear its fruit “each month”. Does that sound like time stops? Nope. It sounds like we’ll have seasons, and months, which means time passed. Time might not mean the same thing to us, if we have eternal life, but I expect it will still be. The reasons for that are…we are human, and will still be. Only God is outside of time, having created it. For us to be outside of time would for us to hold attributes that are God’s alone.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

If heaven and earth were no longer found, then time stopped until:

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

I said time did not stop for those in heaven and earth. Reality changed around them.

The part where only the GWT existed was only experienced by the dead. They were with God alone, neither in present reality, nor the future NHNE. There was no time for them. There was no reality except being cast into the Lake of Fire. They were not in the current heaven and earth. They were not in the NHNE. They stood before God, in between the two realities. Call that whatever you want to, if you do not agree with me. We are not told the relationship of the Lake of Fire with the NHNE.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Where is this without? Some claim the earth outside of New Jerusalem. Or the Lake of Fire outside of reality?

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

This could also mean in the here and now. Blessed are those who have the right to enter the gates. That includes right now. The church is given that right when each soul accepts the Atonement of the Cross and submits to the Holy Spirit. Those who reject are the one's outside who have not entered into that Covenant. John 1:12-13

"But to as many as did receive him, to those who put their trust in his person and power, he gave the right to become children of God, not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God."

We have that right in the here and now. We will have the physical ability in the NHNE.

 

[Oseas]

Luke 21:v.26-28 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud(CLOUD? Read Exodus 19:v.9-22 among others) with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, THEN(yeah, THEN) then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Yeah, men will faint with fear in the days to come, their hearts will fail in terror, because of the things that will come upon the world. JESUS listed the things that will come in the current time upon the world in Matthew 24:v.3 to 8, but the worst will come as is written in verses 15 to 25, that is from the midst until the END of the last week, or after 1.290 days. GOD WILL SEND STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie:and that they all might be DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Why will the powers of heaven be shaken? Because the TWO COVENANTS-the Old and NEW Testaments- will be DISSOLVED with the END of the current DISPENSATION OF GRACE, and establishment of GOD's Kingdom- Revelation 11:v.15 to 18.

2 Peter 3:v.10-13 combined with Luke 20:v.35-36 among others.

10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be DISSOLVED(Hebrews 8:v.13), and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Matth.5:v.5 - Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Revelation 5:v.10 - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

We can see WHAT Satan was being bound against, specifically, by looking at what he DOES, the moment he is released.

Revelation 20:7-9
[7] And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison [8] and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. [9] And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

“Will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth”. Now, despite what you said before, I do trust you recognize the incredibly obvious use of ‘four corners of the earth’ to illustrate the whole earth. A phrase very similar used in Matt 24:30: “from the four winds of heaven”, in reference to the angels gathering all the elect on earth.
So, when Satan is released, the first thing he does is deceive ALL nations into combining their forces TO BATTLE. That’s rather specific, is it not? It’s not just ‘little whispered to bring about instability in Iran’. No, its a concerted campaign design to bring the whole world against something. Against what? “The camp of the Saints and the beloved City”. The people of God, that’s who. Be they in the promised land, or wherever they may reside.

As far as having any idea as to how long Satan will be bound…well, that would go back to Christ telling us that no one knows the day or hour, wouldn’t it? We could suppose, given the times and increased persecution against Christians, suppose at some point that Satan had been released, but as we know from history, things can always get better, and worse.

But that’s not necessarily the point of this passage…knowing the times or seasons when this will take place. It’s given to us so that as Christians we’ll know. We’ll know 2 things: the spiritual battle is very real and Satans hate for us is tremendous. And despite any persecution his people might face, as terrible as it could be, Satan will ultimately fail and be beaten by ‘fire from heaven’. We have triumphed by the blood of the Lamb. Thus is the hope of the whole book.


Who says?
Truly…where does it say that Satan will be bound against everything? Against acting in any way. Against communicating with his minions. It really doesn’t. Which means you just have to suppose that the ‘binding’ of Satan is all encompassing for that time period. We know quite clearly from the book of Job that God is full well capable of placing binding restrictions on the actions of Satan.

Look. I’m not saying that I’m right. I very well might not be, my interpretation of the passage could be way off. But I’m not wrong in saying that you, too, are making assumptions and logic leaps from the text. And insisting he can’t function in any way while bound is simply not in the text. And also insisting that the 1000 years must be a strictly literal time period also has interpretive problems, given the book its found in. But, as I said, that’s a whole other conversation!

The only nation or two mentioned is Gog and Magog. Do you have proof, Gog and Magog means all nations? The indication is not all nations. The indication is the 2 nations, Gog and Magog who claimed the edge of the map in all 4 corners. They literally have to march across the breadth of the whole earth to get to this central camp. The 4 corners meaning the last push of humanity in the last 200 years of the 1000. The most people having the most amount of offspring at one time. The 4 corners shows they are at the edge of all other nations.

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth."

They literally had to march from the edges through all the other nations. Now you can add to the Word of God and come up with a list of the other nations who joined with them. But God's Word only names Gog and Magog. I am not saying my explanation is what happens. That they come from the 4 corners, edge of the map, indicates something other than meaning the whole map. All nations would not have to march the breadth of the earth. The nations next to this camp would not have to march the breadth of the earth at all. Claiming they were decieved is not in the symbolic nor literally sense of doing what Gog and Magog do. If it were all nations, John would have made that clear and not left us guessing. He has listed all of humanity in other chapters, not specifying any particular nation. Satan intended to decieve the nations, but only Gog and Magog listened and were deceived. There could have been four nations, one at each corner, but only 2 nations listened to Satan. There could have been more than 4 nations at the corners, and still only 2 followed Satan. I tend to just go with 2 nations settled the land at the edge of the map. John does not seem to be indicating the whole map, and all nations.

John literally says Satan is bound for 1000 years. John literally says it comes after the battle of Armageddon. There are no symbolic terms or references needed to be interpreted to come up with a literal frame work of reality of when this happens. If one cannot take the Word of God as it is written, but takes literal words and changes them into some symbolism where only they get to dictate the meaning of that symbolism, God's Word has been discarded for human understanding.

No one makes up the point this happens after Armageddon. That is clearly written. No one invents 1000 years. That is clearly stated.

 

[Enoch111]

The only nation or two mentioned is Gog and Magog. Do you have proof, Gog and Magog means all nations?

It is right there in the Bible. Gog and Magog are simply the rebellious leaders of all the nations.

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (Rev 20:8)

The "four quarters of the earth" are north, south, east, and west. Which simply means a GLOBAL REBELLION. Gog is the leader and Magog is his country. Most commentators identify Magog as Russia (which is presently the largest nation in land area). Russia will have a leading part in the battle of Gog and Magog.

 

[Timtofly]

Forgive me, I seem to be misunderstanding your point. I thought you WERE suggesting that the ‘crucifixion with Christ’ ought to count as a death. Here it almost seems you are not…? So…are you therefore saying that if we cannot count it as a death, neither can we count new life in him as a resurrection? (Sorry, just trying to establish where you’re trying to come from). If you could please clarify a little more simply what you think as the first/second death, etc, that would be helpful to the conversation.


Again, I’m a little confused as to what exactly you’re arguing for.
But, as far as I can understand biblically, on this matter. Believing in Christ doesn’t mean you have a death and then life (spiritually). Without Christ we ARE spiritually dead. We therefore move from death to life.
I suppose one could say that those without Christ continue in their spiritually ‘dead’ state until ‘physical death’ comes upon them. Would that, perhaps, make it, theologically, one and the same death? If there is not state of life, or resurrection interrupting that ‘death’…?
But, again, for Christians, when I consider scripture and I see that the lake of fire is clearly the 2nd death, and I know that my status in Christ now is alive, then I can assume nothing more than physical death as the 1st death.


I would say: both. As Christians we most certainly don’t fear the second death. But physical death holds no real victory over us as well, we know what lies on the other side and it is our victorious Lord and resurrection.
Consider for a moment, about the 1 Cor 15 passage. Just above it we are told that at Christ’s return (which is the end) he will hand the kingdom over to the father after defeating all powers and authorities. The last of which is death. We know the ‘death’ spoken of here must be the 1st death, rather than the second, because the second death is eternal punishment. “Death”…which we must understand to be the first…physical death…is thrown INTO the lake of fire…the second death.

In Adam all are dead already. We are born into a dead body, technically. Kind of hard to prove that out side of metaphysical acknowledgement. Even those physically alive need to be resurrected physically into a permanent incorruptible body. Paul just defines that condition as "all will be changed". Literally, the body is not changed. The soul leaves one and enters the other. One body is genetic. The other one made by God. This is not a physical change as the body "evolves". One body is discarded, and the other is put on. The body is not changed. The soul changes location.

Quibbling over the metaphysical is almost as bad as semantics. Humans define terms to be really specific to avoid any misunderstandings. The more specific one gets, the more misunderstanding there is, especially if no one agrees on the definitions, or views "specifics" as unable to overlap in their defined areas of description.

Unfortunately the church has taught that the current body is reconstituted and literally changed. That is what Paul seems to be saying. That is why cremation was taboo, as if God could not bring back all those molecules. Maybe why some thought burning at the stake would literally be the end of the line for "those heretics".

Jesus said, let the dead bury the dead. That act cannot change the soul taking on a totally different body. This dead body will return to dust, never to be seen again. A resurrected soul enters a permanent incorruptible body. That body has to ascend to heaven or at least vanish into air. It can never die physically again. Yes there have been souls that return to the same corruptible body, and leave it again. Jesus proved that the old body is gone never to return. Not sure why some hold to the point this dead body has to literally change into something else.


When a person has a closet of clothes, it is not just one singular garment that changes at our desire. If we want a different garment we have to choose from a variety of garments. The same with the soul. There are two physical bodies. One given at physical birth. Then the soul puts on the permanent one at the point the soul leaves the first physical body.

Most will just argue one is physical, the other spiritual. That is the first step to just avoid the defined biblical terms. A body that is dead is still not one's spirit. One could call the permanent body heavenly, but to claim a body is the same spiritual category of defined terms as the spirit itself, what happens to the spirit if the body takes over the role of the spirit? Spirit and body are the two missing parts of the image of God. Many just want to generalize the term spiritual to anything not of earth. That is being too general and vague. We have a spirit, because God is Spirit. That is the only definition of spirit specified in Scripture. All other uses outside of the Holy Spirit are just vague over generalizations.

The term spirit meaning breath or air is found throughout Scripture. The term pneuma is the general usage of spirit. We in the image of God are more than just the breath of God. We are a soul in a physical body in a spirit that is wrapped around the physical body. Our spirit is more than just the breath God breathed into Adam. We have a spirit separate from just general air. Yes when the pneuma, breath leaves one's body that is the general usage of spirit. But that outer garment of spirit is the image of God's Holy Spirit. We as dead images of Adam do not have that outer image. Our outer garment, our spirit has been in God's presence since conception. In the place of our spirit God gives us the Holy Spirit working on the inside in the place of our spirit which would connect us directly with God. This separation is defined in being spiritually dead. But our spirit is not dead. Nor does that automatically mean every thing in heaven is merely air or spirit. Just vaguely putting everything in our blindspot as being only thin air, or vague spiritual reality is missing the point we exist in a physical Creation. The physical is more than just the ground we exist on.

Heaven is a physical place with physically created beings, not just air and vapor, which using the term pneuma or spiritual implies by definition.

 

[Keraz]

Almost laughable confusion here about the two battles that refer to Gog/Magog.
BEFORE Jesus Returns, there will be an attack against the faithful people of God, who will by then; be living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. The new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
The horde of G/M will come from the North and the furthest parts of the North to attack that rich nation, but the Lord will destroy them. The people will take 7 years to complete the final clean up. Ezekiel 39:1-20

THEN; after the Millennium, a vast army will be gathered for all over the world to attack Jesus. Revelation 16:12-18
They are referred to as like Gog/ Magog, because of their similar size; uncountable numbers.
They are destroyed; totally cremated by fire from heaven. Revelation 20:9

 

[Timtofly]

It is right there in the Bible. Gog and Magog are simply the rebellious leaders of all the nations.

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (Rev 20:8)

The "four quarters of the earth" are north, south, east, and west. Which simply means a GLOBAL REBELLION. Gog is the leader and Magog is his country. Most commentators identify Magog as Russia (which is presently the largest nation in land area). Russia will have a leading part in the battle of Gog and Magog.

How can you claim a leader is both a human and a nation? Gog and Magog historically speaking are two nations located in Turkey. You can Google historical maps. We do not even know what nations exist in the next Millennium. Unless you quote the mention of Egypt as a example of a nation that does not go up in one year. The only nations we have are Egypt, Israel, Gog and Magog. You did not prove Egypt was a nation that joined Gog and Magog. The OT prophets do list other nations when they are making a list. Would you then just add every single nation to cover your own interpretation? You mention Russia. I do not remember seeing Russia as mentioned in the next Millennium.

I also see that at the 6th Seal, all the continents and mountains are moved around by God. The geographic map changes.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

I take this as effecting the whole earth, not just the Mediterranean Sea where the isle of Patmos is. The effect of Noah's Flood was to divide the earth into Continents. The effect of the judgment of fire would be to bring all Continents back into one.

Saying Gog and Magog are not Nations, when John names the nations does not make sense. No where are we told two different leaders were given control over all the nations on earth. No where are we told Gog the leader of Magog takes over control of all the other nations forcing all citizens to rebel.

If you want to go with the historical view of Gog, Magog, they are usually descriptive of a rebellion that abandons their respective nations. Their rebellion defines them as nondescript people without a nation. As rebellion goes, it could be that some in every nation rebelled. I do not think any can twist the accepted definition and claim every single nation and every single citizen rebelled against God. John could have clearly stated the whole world and every nation were decieved. I agree it was a general rebellion. I do not see that John was attempting to symbolize every nation, even if Gog and Magog is symbolic of rebellion. I think that John was pointing out that the majority of the rebellion came from the "ends of the earth". That would be where the most vulnerable of society would end up as humanity spread out over the 1000 years. Australia, New Zealand, and Papua New Guinea, have always been there since the first century. In fact they had a population of humans. They have not been utilized by Europe since the first century. Europe did not have the means nor necessity to incorporate them in the first century. They were not incorporated until the expansion of technology made that possible and more humanity needing room to spread out.

The new Millennium is a new beginning and according to all the judgments a new map. There will be representatives of all nations starting out again. Where they settle can only be speculation. I would assume some will be like those who claim the Flood was only local doing the same with the Second Coming and claiming it will only be local. Not sure why one would accept something about the one, and claim the opposite about the other.

 

[Enoch111]

How can you claim a leader is both a human and a nation?

Gog and Magog are combined together, but only the land of Magog is Russia. And the "chief prince" or political leader of Russia is Gog.

Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. (Ezek 38:2,3)

It is possible that Meshech stands for Moscow and Tubal stands for Tobolsk, both in Russia.

 

[Oseas]

IN THE DAYS TO COME OR IN VERY NEAR FUTURE, THERE WILL BE TWO MIGHTY AND STRONG BEASTS OPERATING ON EARTH:
(1) The MAN Beast of sea - Revelation 13:v.1 to 10 - A Gentile Beast;
(2) The MAN Beast of earth - Revelation 13:v.11 to 18 ; A Jewish Beast;

Be careful and get ready

2 Thessalonians 2:v. 11-12
GOD shall send STRONG DELUSION, that they should BELIEVE a lie:

12 That they all might be DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.