Why I believe in the rapture.

[Timtofly]

Gog and Magog are combined together, but only the land of Magog is Russia. And the "chief prince" or political leader of Russia is Gog.

Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. (Ezek 38:2,3)

It is possible that Meshech stands for Moscow and Tubal stands for Tobolsk, both in Russia.

This is the second coming battle or the situation in Turkey and Syria right now. Turkey is in cahoots with Russia for military weapons purchases, but then making peace and backing those who Russia is against on one front. On the Syrian side, they are fighting against armies that Russia is supporting and backing. That war has been ongoing for 10 years. Even Israel is now involved and the US directly in the fight against Iran and their proxy armies in the last few weeks. Ezekiel's Gog and Magog could escalate and end with the Second Coming any day. The point about prophecy is that there is not an angel herald as far as we know, announcing each fulfilled prophecy as it begins and ends.


The Gog and Magog event 1000 years from now is totally different than the Second Coming event.

 

[Enoch111]

The Gog and Magog event 1000 years from now is totally different than the Second Coming event.

The only thing that we needed to clear up is the connection betwen Gog and Magog. There are conflicting opinions about when Ezekiel 38 will be fulfilled. I believe it will be the same as Revelation 20.

 

[Naomi25]

Because the change in mid air at the Second Coming is both the first death and first resurrection at the same time.

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Is it? How do you know this? Are you told specifically? All we know absolutely is what we are told in Rev 20. And that is: the second death is the lake of fire (eternal judgment and punishment) and that he who ‘shares in the first resurrection’ will not suffer or fear the second death.
All I’m suggesting we do with that information, is take what else is clearly given to us in scripture to draw our conclusions.
And what we know from scripture is:
We are clearly told that ‘new birth’ in Christ is a moving from death to life. Resurrection in any other meaning.
We also know that anyone who experiences this ‘new birth’ will not fear judgment or wrath (lake of fire, also known as the second death.)
And when we look at the second death being eternal judgment, we must also assume that the ‘first death’ is physical death. I don’t care if you put it throughout history or want to count it as the ‘Rapture’ for those surviving up until that point, but that event in a persons life, must be considered the first death.

Now, given this information, I believe trying to push ‘new birth’ off as some other, random act, and try and search for and insert another ‘resurrection’ event, is rather contrived. Because while we are also told clearly in scripture that we shall all receive our new, resurrection bodies AT Christ’s return, there is nothing found that can make us conclude that there are multiple resurrection events throughout history or in the future.

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It is the meaning of Enoch being translated. When a soul passes from this corruptible body to the permanent incorruptible body in Paradise, we call that death. That is the first death. The soul and body transfer may be peaceful without any pain. Those burned at the stake, did not have a peaceful death, but they endured to the end, and still passed from death unto life, knowing they escaped the Second Death.

So we agree, the ‘first death’ is physical death.

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5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

You said:
“Being born of the Holy Spirit is already passing from death to life. The first resurrection happens when the soul leaves this body and enters the permanent incorruptible body in Paradise.

The point is that every time the word first is mentioned it means physical, it is not a when, but can only deal with the physical body.”

However, you’ve also just said above that the ‘first death’ is physical death.
Walk through this with me. Paul is quite clear that the reception of our new, resurrection bodies happens AT Christ’s return. (1 Cor 15:20-55; 1 Thess 4:15-17) Thus, “resurrection”, be it first, second or whenever, CANNOT happen when we physically die. How exactly we spend the time waiting for that point, I don’t want to speculate, because that’s not what we’re doing here.
However, if physical death (1st death) cannot be a resurrection (moving from death to life), but just a going on of the spiritual portion of ourselves, either just OR unjust, then we must, per chance, look for other places in scripture to explain the idea of a 1st and 2nd resurrection.
My repeated point is: the bible clearly speaks of ‘new birth’ in Christ as being one of those events. IF we are saved in Christ, when we physically die we do not go through some sort of ‘extra rebirth’. No, our spirits remain, in whatever form, secure in him, until that day when he returns. And at THAT point we get our new, resurrection bodies.

All I’m attempting to do is look for valid explanations that remain as faithful to the text as possible, without needing to add bit and pieces to it to explain how we “could” get something else. I believe scripture gives us ample evidence to suggest we don’t need to look beyond new birth in Christ, and our resurrection bodies, as the two events it speaks of.

And, once more, I simply reject the idea that ‘the word first means physical’. You have not proved it at all. If scripture clearly tells us that “new birth in Christ”, which is clearly spiritual, still means “moving from death to life”, then you may attempt to focus in on the fact that the word “resurrection” isn’t used, but it’s not going to do much good in the face of how the bible describes it, which I hope you’ll agree takes precedence.

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The water is the womb. The Holy Spirit is the birth into the family of God. Flesh is the first of everything physical. The Holy Spirit is the second of everything spiritual.

Okay, now you’re just confusing me. How does this make any sense. Even if you don’t want to mark ‘new birth’ as the 1st resurrection, you must admit how the bible describes it, surely. Which is “moving from death to life”. And it is CLEARLY spiritual, and it is also CLEARLY before we get our new physical bodies.
So, you have it backwards. We first received new life in the Spirit, we wait for our new life in physically perfect bodies. Spiritual came first, physical will come later.

 

[Naomi25]

You have to be born of flesh, or you would not even exist. You have to be born of the Holy Spirit or you would not exist in God's point of view.


Those thrown into the lake of fire hear this from God, "Depart from Me, I never knew you". That is not the general sense of God's omniscience. That is in the spiritual sense of one's name written in the Lamb's book of life.

But this is exactly my point. Yes, we existed fleshly before our new birth. And yes, all those unsaved do as well. But the bible is clear that before we were “In Christ” we were “dead in our sins” (Eph 2:1-6). We may have had the ‘life’ of air within our bodies, but we didn’t know true, spiritual life before Christ. That’s why ‘new birth’ in him is such a big deal, and why it, and it alone, can save us from the second death. Yes, sure, the physical resurrection of our new, perfected bodies is necessary for eternal life, but in point of fact, the bible tells us that without that first ‘spiritual’ life into Christ, we would still be dead, and be headed for the second death.

That makes it absolutely essential to any talk about what it is that makes us worthy of escaping or not fearing the second death.

John 5:24-29

[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

[25] “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the deadwill hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

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You are the one claiming the dead in Revelation 20:12 have been resurrected, when it never mentions resurrection one time. You are adding to the verses a physical resurrection. John claims the dead are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Not in Rev 20, but it surely does elsewhere:


John 5:24-29

[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

[25] “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. [26] For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. [27] And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. [28] Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice [29] and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


So, we can see, not just the “Just” have a resurrection, but so too do the “Unjust”.

And interestingly enough, you can see at the beginning of this passage where Jesus clearly differentiates between ‘hearing the Son of God’ and will live…the dead will hear ‘and live’. It doesn’t say in Vv25 that “an hour is coming and is NOW HETE that those who are in the tombs will live”…no, he saves that til later, and he doesn’t say the time is “now here”…he says a time “will come”.

Basically, he’s clearly telling us that spiritually dead people where even then, hearing him and coming to life…eternal life. But an hour was still to come when those in their tombs would ‘live’.

Clear delineation between the first resurrection and second.

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I said time did not stop for those in heaven and earth. Reality changed around them.

You said:

“The GWT is not really a when either. It is not even in time. It is after this current heaven and earth pass, which to us places it after the end of time, but not in time. The only thing that does exist is the throne. No where do your verses state we have to wait until time is no more to receive our eternal life. If you are waiting for the "hour to come", it is definitely not the non-literal hour that does not even exist, is it? If it is not a literal hour, and Jesus pointed out it was already there, then it is ongoing from the time Jesus spoke, until time stops.”


Okay. Let’s unpack this in a bit more depth. It seems to me you did say that the GWT is apart from, “after the end of” time, which means, time has stopped, for all intents and purposes. That’s a sort of ipso facto thing, right?

I also wonder where you draw your conclusion that “the GWT is the only thing that does exist”. Where on earth does it either tell us that, or allow us to assume everything beyond it is gone.

Or…are you saying it in a figurative manner….”to the attention and purposes of those standing there, nothing else exists”. Because, one might imagine that might be true, so important will it be, but again, the text hardly tells us that, does it?


Further more, my ‘expectation’ that the resurrection and judgment will be ‘on a day’, is quite clearly backed up by scripture.

(1 Co 15:20-55; John 5:24-29; John 11:24; 1 Thess 4:16-17; 2 Thess 7-10)


I believe you are taking John 5 out of context…see above, please. You cannot use that passage to claim an ongoing, constant stream of ‘resurrections’. One, it doesn’t say that, and two, it would clearly violate other scriptures speaking of a single, end time event, 1 Cor 15 being the most obvious:


1 Corinthians 15:20-26

[20] But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [21] For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. [24] Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. [25] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [26] The last enemy to be destroyed is death.


This passage clearly tells us that we shall receive our ‘first fruit’ bodies…our resurrection bodies, AT Christ’s return.

The part where only the GWT existed was only experienced by the dead. They were with God alone, neither in present reality, nor the future NHNE. There was no time for them. There was no reality except being cast into the Lake of Fire. They were not in the current heaven and earth. They were not in the NHNE. They stood before God, in between the two realities. Call that whatever you want to, if you do not agree with me. We are not told the relationship of the Lake of Fire with the NHNE.


15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


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Again, you seem to be making quite an assumption here. What text tells you that the dead, when standing before the GWT, were neither in “this reality, nor the future NHNE”? How do you know these people will not be aware of time as they suffer punishment?

I agree we are not told of the relationship between the lake of fire and NHNE…I’m pleased you haven’t decided to make wild guesses here as well.

Where is this without? Some claim the earth outside of New Jerusalem. Or the Lake of Fire outside of reality?


14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


This could also mean in the here and now. Blessed are those who have the right to enter the gates. That includes right now. The church is given that right when each soul accepts the Atonement of the Cross and submits to the Holy Spirit. Those who reject are the one's outside who have not entered into that Covenant. John 1:12-13


"But to as many as did receive him, to those who put their trust in his person and power, he gave the right to become children of God, not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God."


We have that right in the here and now. We will have the physical ability in the NHNE

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This is classic “already not yet” eschatology. Yes, spiritually, we have access to many of the promises given the children of God. However, we see obvious passages in the NT and Revelation, that also promise physical fulfilment. And that, clearly, is “not yet”. It’s like the first and second resurrections. The first, spiritual, we have now in Christ. The second, physical, we must await for his return.

 

[farouk]

But this is exactly my point. Yes, we existed fleshly before our new birth. And yes, all those unsaved do as well. But the bible is clear that before we were “In Christ” we were “dead in our sins” (Eph 2:1-6). We may have had the ‘life’ of air within our bodies, but we didn’t know true, spiritual life before Christ. That’s why ‘new birth’ in him is such a big deal, and why it, and it alone, can save us from the second death. Yes, sure, the physical resurrection of our new, perfected bodies is necessary for eternal life, but in point of fact, the bible tells us that without that first ‘spiritual’ life into Christ, we would still be dead, and be headed for the second death.

That makes it absolutely essential to any talk about what it is that makes us worthy of escaping or not fearing the second death.

John 5:24-29

[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

[25] “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the deadwill hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.




Not in Rev 20, but it surely does elsewhere:


John 5:24-29

[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

[25] “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. [26] For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. [27] And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. [28] Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice [29] and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


So, we can see, not just the “Just” have a resurrection, but so too do the “Unjust”.

And interestingly enough, you can see at the beginning of this passage where Jesus clearly differentiates between ‘hearing the Son of God’ and will live…the dead will hear ‘and live’. It doesn’t say in Vv25 that “an hour is coming and is NOW HETE that those who are in the tombs will live”…no, he saves that til later, and he doesn’t say the time is “now here”…he says a time “will come”.

Basically, he’s clearly telling us that spiritually dead people where even then, hearing him and coming to life…eternal life. But an hour was still to come when those in their tombs would ‘live’.

Clear delineation between the first resurrection and second.





You said:

“The GWT is not really a when either. It is not even in time. It is after this current heaven and earth pass, which to us places it after the end of time, but not in time. The only thing that does exist is the throne. No where do your verses state we have to wait until time is no more to receive our eternal life. If you are waiting for the "hour to come", it is definitely not the non-literal hour that does not even exist, is it? If it is not a literal hour, and Jesus pointed out it was already there, then it is ongoing from the time Jesus spoke, until time stops.”


Okay. Let’s unpack this in a bit more depth. It seems to me you did say that the GWT is apart from, “after the end of” time, which means, time has stopped, for all intents and purposes. That’s a sort of ipso facto thing, right?

I also wonder where you draw your conclusion that “the GWT is the only thing that does exist”. Where on earth does it either tell us that, or allow us to assume everything beyond it is gone.

Or…are you saying it in a figurative manner….”to the attention and purposes of those standing there, nothing else exists”. Because, one might imagine that might be true, so important will it be, but again, the text hardly tells us that, does it?


Further more, my ‘expectation’ that the resurrection and judgment will be ‘on a day’, is quite clearly backed up by scripture.

(1 Co 15:20-55; John 5:24-29; John 11:24; 1 Thess 4:16-17; 2 Thess 7-10)


I believe you are taking John 5 out of context…see above, please. You cannot use that passage to claim an ongoing, constant stream of ‘resurrections’. One, it doesn’t say that, and two, it would clearly violate other scriptures speaking of a single, end time event, 1 Cor 15 being the most obvious:


1 Corinthians 15:20-26

[20] But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [21] For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. [24] Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. [25] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [26] The last enemy to be destroyed is death.


This passage clearly tells us that we shall receive our ‘first fruit’ bodies…our resurrection bodies, AT Christ’s return.




Again, you seem to be making quite an assumption here. What text tells you that the dead, when standing before the GWT, were neither in “this reality, nor the future NHNE”? How do you know these people will not be aware of time as they suffer punishment?

I agree we are not told of the relationship between the lake of fire and NHNE…I’m pleased you haven’t decided to make wild guesses here as well.




This is classic “already not yet” eschatology. Yes, spiritually, we have access to many of the promises given the children of God. However, we see obvious passages in the NT and Revelation, that also promise physical fulfilment. And that, clearly, is “not yet”. It’s like the first and second resurrections. The first, spiritual, we have now in Christ. The second, physical, we must await for his return.

@Naomi25 At many a funeral of a saint of God, part of 1 Corinthians 15 has been very relevantly read...

 

[farouk]

PS: @Naomi25 The New Birth (John 3) is indeed truly pivotal in an understanding of true faith and conversion.

 

[Naomi25]

The only nation or two mentioned is Gog and Magog. Do you have proof, Gog and Magog means all nations? The indication is not all nations. The indication is the 2 nations, Gog and Magog who claimed the edge of the map in all 4 corners.

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Is this seriously your view? It’s completely nonsensical.
First, what does it say:
Revelation 20:8
[8] and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

Alright. First off…how do you know Gog and Magog are nations themselves? Where else in scripture is this phrase mentioned?

Ezekiel 38:2
[2] “Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him

So, we see that “Gog” is not a nation, he is a Prince ruler. It is Magog that is “a land”.
So, at best, what you have when Revelation references Gog and Magog, is a person and land…singular.
Which does NOT negate where the verse says: “the nations that are at the four corners of the earth”.
You still have multiple nations involved…indeed, we are told the nations come from ‘the four corners’, and that is an obvious reference to the points of the compass, north, south, east, west. In short…the whole planet.
So, why the reference to Gog and Magog in Rev 20? Well, it could be stating that the Ezekiel prophecy is about the same occasion. Or, it could be a separate battle with the ‘Prince’…Gog…echoing this prophecy. Either way, its assumption and guess work and we cannot truly know, not until or if people manage to, in any sure way, identify both Gog and Magog in these particular times.
The point being is: the reference to them cannot negate the reference to the ‘nations at the four corners of the earth’.

But…let us just assume, for a moment, you may be correct, and Gog and Magog are ‘Nations’ that have claimed ownership over the whole globe. That still means that the peoples of ALL the earth will be gathered for battle against the Saints.
Like I said…nonsensical.

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They literally have to march across the breadth of the whole earth to get to this central camp. The 4 corners meaning the last push of humanity in the last 200 years of the 1000. The most people having the most amount of offspring at one time. The 4 corners shows they are at the edge of all other nations.

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth."

This was cool in the Left Behind series, but we see not a jot of it in scripture. You appear to be just making this up, and its embarrassing.
Where exactly does it say these armies must march on foot? And if ‘literalists’ were so consumed with this army remaining on foot, despite them locating the battle in our times, why on earth do many of them turn around and make the demons of Rev 9 into battle helicopters?
‘March’ can just mean an army is on the move.
And where on earth do you get that nonsense about people breeding in the 1000 years, or the 4 corners meaning “the last push of humanity”?

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They literally had to march from the edges through all the other nations.

Well, gosh darn it! There goes all the poor troops who can’t “march” over the ocean. Guess they just get left out of your strictly literal interpretation.

Now you can add to the Word of God and come up with a list of the other nations who joined with them. But God's Word only names Gog and Magog. I am not saying my explanation is what happens. That they come from the 4 corners, edge of the map, indicates something other than meaning the whole map.
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I’m sorry. Am I truly supposed to take this at all seriously?
“Coming from the 4 corners (edge of the map) indicates something other than meaning the whole map.”
Astounding.

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All nations would not have to march the breadth of the earth. The nations next to this camp would not have to march the breadth of the earth at all.

Okay, I disagree with your reasoning.
Consider, for just a second, this verse:

Habakkuk 1:6
[6] For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans,
that bitter and hasty nation,
who march through the breadth of the earth,
to seize dwellings not their own.

Now, we can assume, can we not, that the Chaldeans did not, in fact, march over the breadth of the earth. It’s a symbolic way saying that the army flooded in great numbers over the entire country (much like ‘the 4 corners of the earth’ is for symbolic for ‘the whole globe’). It’s an imagine we can imagine, can we not? Anyone who’s seen movies like the Lord of the Rings, or some other great battle movie, will tell you how…visual…it can be to witness masses of enemies undulating over the hills and plains as they advance on their foes. It’s chilling.
And in Rev 20 we have obvious language that leads us to conclude that the size and scope of the armies gathered against the Saints and Jerusalem is outrageous in number. The whole earth is positioned against the people of God.

So, when the bible tells us that we have 1) nations from the four corners of the earth, and 2) they march over the breadth of the earth, we don’t look at it and go “huh…lets try and plot out how we could make that happen literally…no vehicles, nothing. Oh, and let’s try and pinpoint which exact nations are going to be included in ‘4 corners”
No, John is assuming his clear use of recognisable language will evoke just that…recognition.
Imagine I told you “its raining cats and dogs”…you don’t look for the animals falling out of the sky, you assume its bucketing down.

.Claiming they were decieved is not in the symbolic nor literally sense of doing what Gog and Magog do. If it were all nations, John would have made that clear and not left us guessing.

How is John telling us “4 corners of the earth” him NOT telling us clearly?
And “claiming” they were deceived…? I mean, where are you getting any of this. The text outright STATES it.
And if something is NOT symbolic OR literal, what on earth do you have left? ALL words must either be symbolic or literal.

. He has listed all of humanity in other chapters, not specifying any particular nation. Satan intended to decieve the nations, but only Gog and Magog listened and were deceived.

I think…at this point, you are really scratching the bottom of the barrel. Does the text SAY that only Gog and Magog listened? No, it doesn’t. Heck, you haven’t even fully established WHO or WHAT Gog and Magog is! The closest we have is Ez 38, which tells us that Magog is a ‘land’. So…the land was deceived, as well as its leader? Because strictly, Gog was Prince over Meshech and Tubal and ‘Magog’ is just the land upon which they lived.

You see the problem when you start making assumptions the text doesn’t allow for?

. There could have been four nations, one at each corner, but only 2 nations listened to Satan. There could have been more than 4 nations at the corners, and still only 2 followed Satan. I tend to just go with 2 nations settled the land at the edge of the map. John does not seem to be indicating the whole map, and all nations.

No. You’re right. It totally makes more sense to have, at the end of time, when Satan is “let out” for once last attempt to crush the people of God…that he only gets 2 takers, and they march, on foot, from the outer edges of the globe…including over water, somehow.
It totally makes sense that such a threat against the Saints could only be met by God himself intervening and defeating Satan and his ‘hordes’ of two nations. Presuming theres any of them left, or able to fight once they’ve trooped across the lands on foot.

There must, inevitably, come a point where you question if the “literal” reading of a text is turning the ‘clear meaning’ into plain nonsense.

 

[Naomi25]

John literally says Satan is bound for 1000 years. John literally says it comes after the battle of Armageddon. There are no symbolic terms or references needed to be interpreted to come up with a literal frame work of reality of when this happens. If one cannot take the Word of God as it is written, but takes literal words and changes them into some symbolism where only they get to dictate the meaning of that symbolism, God's Word has been discarded for human understanding.

There is a big difference between taking God’s word “literally” and taking it as true. For something to be ‘symbolic’ does not make it ‘untrue’. For example, to use the same analogy as before, if I said it was raining “cats and dogs”, when it was raining torrents, am I lying? I’m not. I’m using figurative language to make my meaning clear.

Thus you do not NEED to have something written in “literalistic” fashion to make it true, or real.


Let’s look at “Armageddon” shall we?


Revelation 16:12-16

[12] The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. [13] And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. [14] For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. [15] (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) [16] And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.


This is the “sixth bowl”. We see that they “assemble for battle on the great day of God”. We also see it is directly linked to what Jesus told them in Matt 24:42-43 - “I am coming like a thief!”

This means that this ‘battle’ is taking place just before Christ’s return, or even AT it.

Indeed, what happens immediately AFTER bowl Six?


Revelation 16:17-21

[17] The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” [18] And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. [19] The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. [20] And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. [21] And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.


“It is done”. Flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a great earthquake.

Where else do we see this in Revelation?


Revelation 4:5

[5] From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God,


Revelation 8:1-5

[1] When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. [2] Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. [3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, [4] and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. [5] Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.


Revelation 11:15-19

[15] Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” [16] And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, [17] saying,

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,

who is and who was,

for you have taken your great power

and begun to reign.

[18] The nations raged,

but your wrath came,

and the time for the dead to be judged,

and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,

and those who fear your name,

both small and great,

and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

[19] Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.


Okay…we see this same language in several other places in Revelation. The first place is about the Throne, where God himself sits in heaven and the 24 elders are around him.

The second is when the 7th seal is opened, and the third is when the 7th trumpet is sounded. Both seal and trumpet have heavenly scenes as well, showing God’s temple and altar. And in both occasions we see that God is either viewed or interacts with the earth, resulting in clear signs of a theophany: flashes of lightning, peals of thunder, etc. When we look back at Mt Sinai, we see the same things about the Mt when God ‘came down’.

Coupled together with the sort of language we see: “it is finished”, “you HAVE taken your power and begun to reign”, “but your wrath CAME and the time for the dead to be judged”.

This language points to the clear idea that the ‘seal, trumpet and bowl’ judgments all end with a theophany, and what we may expect at Christ’s return…things to be done, completed….for the dead to be judged and God’s servants rewarded.


And what else can this conclusion lead us to? To the fact that the book itself is NOT written in a strictly chronological manner. Else you end up with several theophanies, several ‘last battles’ that judges all the nations and those opposing the people of God.

That means that saying that the battle of Rev 20 cannot be “Armageddon” is not, strictly, correct.

And you can cry out that that is not a “literal” reading of the book, but a literal reading gets you several theophanies and several battles.

Where else in scripture supports the idea that Christ is going to crack the sky open several times? Or that we may expect multiple battles where Satan gathers the unsaved of the earth in order to slay God’s chosen?

You don’t. Which ought to point rather strongly towards the fact that much of Revelation will end up distorted and deformed if you attempt to read it in a ‘strictly literal’ manner.

. No one makes up the point this happens after Armageddon. That is clearly written. No one invents 1000 years. That is clearly stated

See above.

Also….perhaps you ought to do a word study throughout the whole bible. How often, when it is used, is 1000 meant literally?

 

[Naomi25]

In Adam all are dead already. We are born into a dead body, technically. Kind of hard to prove that out side of metaphysical acknowledgement. Even those physically alive need to be resurrected physically into a permanent incorruptible body. Paul just defines that condition as "all will be changed". Literally, the body is not changed. The soul leaves one and enters the other. One body is genetic. The other one made by God. This is not a physical change as the body "evolves". One body is discarded, and the other is put on. The body is not changed. The soul changes location.

Quibbling over the metaphysical is almost as bad as semantics. Humans define terms to be really specific to avoid any misunderstandings. The more specific one gets, the more misunderstanding there is, especially if no one agrees on the definitions, or views "specifics" as unable to overlap in their defined areas of description.

Unfortunately the church has taught that the current body is reconstituted and literally changed. That is what Paul seems to be saying. That is why cremation was taboo, as if God could not bring back all those molecules. Maybe why some thought burning at the stake would literally be the end of the line for "those heretics".

Jesus said, let the dead bury the dead. That act cannot change the soul taking on a totally different body. This dead body will return to dust, never to be seen again. A resurrected soul enters a permanent incorruptible body. That body has to ascend to heaven or at least vanish into air. It can never die physically again. Yes there have been souls that return to the same corruptible body, and leave it again. Jesus proved that the old body is gone never to return. Not sure why some hold to the point this dead body has to literally change into something else.


When a person has a closet of clothes, it is not just one singular garment that changes at our desire. If we want a different garment we have to choose from a variety of garments. The same with the soul. There are two physical bodies. One given at physical birth. Then the soul puts on the permanent one at the point the soul leaves the first physical body.

Most will just argue one is physical, the other spiritual. That is the first step to just avoid the defined biblical terms. A body that is dead is still not one's spirit. One could call the permanent body heavenly, but to claim a body is the same spiritual category of defined terms as the spirit itself, what happens to the spirit if the body takes over the role of the spirit? Spirit and body are the two missing parts of the image of God. Many just want to generalize the term spiritual to anything not of earth. That is being too general and vague. We have a spirit, because God is Spirit. That is the only definition of spirit specified in Scripture. All other uses outside of the Holy Spirit are just vague over generalizations.

The term spirit meaning breath or air is found throughout Scripture. The term pneuma is the general usage of spirit. We in the image of God are more than just the breath of God. We are a soul in a physical body in a spirit that is wrapped around the physical body. Our spirit is more than just the breath God breathed into Adam. We have a spirit separate from just general air. Yes when the pneuma, breath leaves one's body that is the general usage of spirit. But that outer garment of spirit is the image of God's Holy Spirit. We as dead images of Adam do not have that outer image. Our outer garment, our spirit has been in God's presence since conception. In the place of our spirit God gives us the Holy Spirit working on the inside in the place of our spirit which would connect us directly with God. This separation is defined in being spiritually dead. But our spirit is not dead. Nor does that automatically mean every thing in heaven is merely air or spirit. Just vaguely putting everything in our blindspot as being only thin air, or vague spiritual reality is missing the point we exist in a physical Creation. The physical is more than just the ground we exist on.

Heaven is a physical place with physically created beings, not just air and vapor, which using the term pneuma or spiritual implies by definition.

I’m fairly certain I’ve been over most of this in a post just earlier today, so there is little to no point in cluttering things up by adding more of the same arguments. I’m sure you’ll address your understandings/view on that previous post.

 

[solway]

(No Rapture, No Signs, *Only Rabies, *Only the Rotting of the Body)

REVELATION 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
REVELATION 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

1. Five Kings are Fallen: Joshua 10:11-17
2. One King Continue a Short Space: Luke 23:3
3. "Eighth King of Perdition": Acts 7:9 (Joseph is Accounted with the Tribes in Revelation...the Spirit that Reveals the Abomination of Desolation/Lord of the Air/Prince of the Power of the Air)
4. (Jesus Revealed that Humanity was not a Direct Witness because of its "suicide pleasure"/dirth charge/dead flesh) (the faithful are a witness, humanity just is not, Acts 13:6)
...............
...............
1. God told the Jewish People not to Cross the Jordan River, and Satisfy their Pleasures, and their sin (they were cut off, but the law was not finished until later) (at the time of Joshua)
2. God told the Romans to "Kill and Eat", to euthanize all the jewish people and minorities in isreal/jerusalem, and to prepare the way of the lord (Jesus stopped dealing with those false witnesses, and richly rewarded the apostles he called) (at the time the new testament books were written)
3. Each Son of Man in the New Testament Era, has to deal with the necessity of euthanasia for jews and minorities...........as well as God using his angels to afford them euthanasia for basic profitability with the gospel and for god's good pleasure in discernment
4. God stopped viewing humanity was a witness, in relation to a sign or a vision more then the rotting of the body, and for many years, or for the New Testament Era.
...............
...............
Simple Statement
The Seven Year Figures, describe "signs and visions", that is daniel's prophecy and revelation prophecy.................HOWEVER.............Daniel's Prophecy that does not use "morning and evening" measurements (or day measurements).............like the "Daniel's Week Prophecy", this deals with the Rotting of the Body/Abomination of Desolation, and not necessarily a "sign or a vision". God is very clear about this division and that is the law.

So What? Yes?

God is persistent in associating measurements that are not "day measurements, mornings or evenings", with the Rotting of the Body..............the language like this "1000 Year Kingdom of Revelation/Day for 1000 Years"..............that also continues the trend.

What does Humanity Witness, if not a Sign or a Vision, and if only the Rotting of the Body?

1. God Introduces the Mechanism for the "Abomination of Desolation" (Seven Year Trinity Measurements)
2. God Completes the Mechanism for the "Abomination of Desolation" (1000 Year Kingdom)

(This is the Real Legal Answer, Simplified)

EZEKIEL 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
EZEKIEL 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Space Ship Borisov Covid 19 (12/2019)
+++
390 Days to 12/2020
+++
400 Days to 2/2022 (RABIES - Valentines Day)

(God appoints the son of man to identify with his mercies...............that also means the "mark of the beast" is the product of the son of man and his family (pyramid builder and his soulmate)..............which is a mechanism to remove genetic decay, for the benefit of god's mercies in the correct and natural way the body is designed with a unified field in mind)

("Dead Flesh Accusation", of no Rainbow as a result of the "dirth charge/dead flesh" is humanities accusation...............because humanity has a high level, mental and functional illness as a result of its "suicide pleasure", its estimated that 1 to 2 billion will have to die, those unclean genetic cluster, it can be done quickly and seem natural...............this may or may not be completed)

(Humanity is not necessarily entitled to a judgment, it can waste god's mercies, but humanity cannot redesign the law, I'll have to see what measure I will take additionally, to make jews and minorities more unappealing with god's mercies in their suicide pleasure controversies...............access can be restricted, opportunities lost...............then what do they have to be unclean with facing humanities choice of an unprofitable death? Well plenty, they can pretend they don't have to kill, play best buddy on earth while people's bodies rott away standing, off world there won't be a single jew or minority living................)

(remember edward leedskalnin was a leader in certain area more progressively, until he decided, he would provide the opportunity to various places and let them waste it one way or another, so he developed a passive role, and that was humanities accusation in that day...............but they had no strength to do anything corruptible with god's mercies................)

(does it serve me or god more to promote genocide more then a faithful testimony.............the answer is a faithful testimony is more important, so we'll have to see what is necessary, on the walk of faith with god's mercies) (Very Soon)

 

[Truth7t7]

And to bring back the thief statement and that we don’t really know Isaac Newton goes on to say….

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

We, unfortunately, still have, “rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail.”

It is acceptable to put together a timeline and a prediction as Isaac Newton did, it is nice to conclude after all is said, “Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." Christ can come today, tomorrow, 2030, or 2060!

(Sir Isaac Newton) was a brilliant man in many ways, but spiritually he was heavily involved in the "Occult" Kabbalah, Rosicrucianism, Alchemy, and the Secret Societies, far from any thought of being a spirit filled christian

 

[marks]

Paul just defines that condition as "all will be changed". Literally, the body is not changed.

I don't know why you would think that, considering,

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Philippians 3:21 KJV
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

This is something plainly stated, why not accept that it is true on it's face?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

The Lord Jesus Christ did not leave us to be in the dark/confused about His Return. That is why He chose and instructed the Apostles Paul and John to write down the events that must take place prior to His Return - the First Resurrection and afterwards the Rapture of His Elect.
1 Thess. 5:1-6 and Hebrews 10:24-25

Must occur before His Return - 2 Thess 2:1-12 and 1 John 2:18 and Matthew chapter 24 and Revelations

God's ultimate goal/triumph/victory for His Children is the First Resurrection/Rapture - being transformed from mortal into His Immortality.
1 Corinthians chapter 15

 

[Timtofly]

The only thing that we needed to clear up is the connection betwen Gog and Magog. There are conflicting opinions about when Ezekiel 38 will be fulfilled. I believe it will be the same as Revelation 20.

Jesus does not come to earth to the Mount of Olives 1000 years after already sitting on the throne for 1000 years. Where in Revelation 20 does it say, He went away for a few days and everything in His 1000 year reign fell apart?

The mount of Olives event is the 6th Seal. It is the only time the sign of the Son of man is given in Revelation like Jesus gave in the OD. This is the return to the mount of Olives. The return of Christ to stop the attacking armies. Are the Seals opened at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ as well? That is a post mill or amill view. If Christ literally reigns for 1000 years on earth, He literally has to come pre-mill to be present for His own reign. He comes in Chapter 19 and John does not say He leaves again. Jesus does not come down in Revelation 20:9

"and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Fire came down. This is a different event.

 

[Timtofly]

Is it? How do you know this? Are you told specifically? All we know absolutely is what we are told in Rev 20. And that is: the second death is the lake of fire (eternal judgment and punishment) and that he who ‘shares in the first resurrection’ will not suffer or fear the second death.
All I’m suggesting we do with that information, is take what else is clearly given to us in scripture to draw our conclusions.
And what we know from scripture is:
We are clearly told that ‘new birth’ in Christ is a moving from death to life. Resurrection in any other meaning.
We also know that anyone who experiences this ‘new birth’ will not fear judgment or wrath (lake of fire, also known as the second death.)
And when we look at the second death being eternal judgment, we must also assume that the ‘first death’ is physical death. I don’t care if you put it throughout history or want to count it as the ‘Rapture’ for those surviving up until that point, but that event in a persons life, must be considered the first death.

Now, given this information, I believe trying to push ‘new birth’ off as some other, random act, and try and search for and insert another ‘resurrection’ event, is rather contrived. Because while we are also told clearly in scripture that we shall all receive our new, resurrection bodies AT Christ’s return, there is nothing found that can make us conclude that there are multiple resurrection events throughout history or in the future.


So we agree, the ‘first death’ is physical death.


You said:
“Being born of the Holy Spirit is already passing from death to life. The first resurrection happens when the soul leaves this body and enters the permanent incorruptible body in Paradise.

The point is that every time the word first is mentioned it means physical, it is not a when, but can only deal with the physical body.”

However, you’ve also just said above that the ‘first death’ is physical death.
Walk through this with me. Paul is quite clear that the reception of our new, resurrection bodies happens AT Christ’s return. (1 Cor 15:20-55; 1 Thess 4:15-17) Thus, “resurrection”, be it first, second or whenever, CANNOT happen when we physically die. How exactly we spend the time waiting for that point, I don’t want to speculate, because that’s not what we’re doing here.
However, if physical death (1st death) cannot be a resurrection (moving from death to life), but just a going on of the spiritual portion of ourselves, either just OR unjust, then we must, per chance, look for other places in scripture to explain the idea of a 1st and 2nd resurrection.
My repeated point is: the bible clearly speaks of ‘new birth’ in Christ as being one of those events. IF we are saved in Christ, when we physically die we do not go through some sort of ‘extra rebirth’. No, our spirits remain, in whatever form, secure in him, until that day when he returns. And at THAT point we get our new, resurrection bodies.

All I’m attempting to do is look for valid explanations that remain as faithful to the text as possible, without needing to add bit and pieces to it to explain how we “could” get something else. I believe scripture gives us ample evidence to suggest we don’t need to look beyond new birth in Christ, and our resurrection bodies, as the two events it speaks of.

And, once more, I simply reject the idea that ‘the word first means physical’. You have not proved it at all. If scripture clearly tells us that “new birth in Christ”, which is clearly spiritual, still means “moving from death to life”, then you may attempt to focus in on the fact that the word “resurrection” isn’t used, but it’s not going to do much good in the face of how the bible describes it, which I hope you’ll agree takes precedence.


Okay, now you’re just confusing me. How does this make any sense. Even if you don’t want to mark ‘new birth’ as the 1st resurrection, you must admit how the bible describes it, surely. Which is “moving from death to life”. And it is CLEARLY spiritual, and it is also CLEARLY before we get our new physical bodies.
So, you have it backwards. We first received new life in the Spirit, we wait for our new life in physically perfect bodies. Spiritual came first, physical will come later.

Bodies coming out of their tombs in Matthew 27:52-53 is a recorded resurrection event.

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This is not the Revelation 20:4 event. Some amil try to use this as the same event. They claim Satan was bound at the Cross as well.

So there are 2 distinct events.

Some claim there is one at the end of this 1000 years. Even those who claim the 1000 years is just symbolic. They assume first implies a second. The Cross, the pre-mill, and the post mill cannot be the same singular event, not even by twisting logic into a pretzel.

I do not claim the GWT is a resurrection event, so no one can accuse me of calling it a resurrection. The Cross was a resurrection event. The end of the tribulation is the only other resurrection event I acknowledge. The tribulation did not end at the Cross. They cannot be the same resurrection, period.


The change in mid air. Do those bodies die for lack of oxygen? Or do they evolve quickly to adapt and keep living. The point about the soul leaving this corruptible body is considered death. The soul leaves, the body quits functioning. It is essentially non functioning and returns to dust. Is that death? If the corruptible body is already dead, is that why it cannot enter Paradise as is, even fully functional? If the soul changes bodies in mid air is that not considered death for one and resurrection for the other?

 

[David in NJ]

The Sixth seal occurs BEFORE the 1,000 year Reign with Christ. You have forgotten that AFTER the 1,000 years Satan is loosed from prison to go out and gather Gog & Magog for the final battle.
Jesus is not doing a yo-yo act.

 

[David in NJ]

Bodies coming out of their tombs in Matthew 27:52-53 is a recorded resurrection event.

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This is not the Revelation 20:4 event. Some amil try to use this as the same event. They claim Satan was bound at the Cross as well.

So there are 2 distinct events.

Some claim there is one at the end of this 1000 years. Even those who claim the 1000 years is just symbolic. They assume first implies a second. The Cross, the pre-mill, and the post mill cannot be the same singular event, not even by twisting logic into a pretzel.

I do not claim the GWT is a resurrection event, so no one can accuse me of calling it a resurrection. The Cross was a resurrection event. The end of the tribulation is the only other resurrection event I acknowledge. The tribulation did not end at the Cross. They cannot be the same resurrection, period.


The change in mid air. Do those bodies die for lack of oxygen? Or do they evolve quickly to adapt and keep living. The point about the soul leaving this corruptible body is considered death. The soul leaves, the body quits functioning. It is essentially non functioning and returns to dust. Is that death? If the corruptible body is already dead, is that why it cannot enter Paradise as is, even fully functional? If the soul changes bodies in mid air is that not considered death for one and resurrection for the other?

Factual Physical Historical Event: ATONEMENT: Jesus died on the Cross for our sins and is buried. RESURRECTION - Because He did not commit sin Death could not have power over His Body in the grave. RETURN: He is coming back to resurrect from the grave ONLY those who have died "in Christ".

Why do you marvel over something our brains cannot understand??? God is not obligated to give us an account of His power and how He gives life and breath to that which was once dead.
"Without faith it is impossible to please Him and they that come to Him must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him" - Hebrews 11:6

No greater REWARD then Eternal Life with God in a Resurrected Glorified Body that will never see death again - AMEN

 

[Timtofly]

And, once more, I simply reject the idea that ‘the word first means physical’. You have not proved it at all. If scripture clearly tells us that “new birth in Christ”, which is clearly spiritual, still means “moving from death to life”, then you may attempt to focus in on the fact that the word “resurrection” isn’t used, but it’s not going to do much good in the face of how the bible describes it, which I hope you’ll agree takes precedence.

The spiritual (second) birth has literally nothing whatsoever to do with our soul, our body, nor our spirit. It is all in the person of the Holy Spirit and submitting our will. Unless our will is our soul, then the soul has to follow the will, just as much as the body has to follow our will, and submit to the Holy Spirit.

We do not get a different soul. We do not get a different body. We do not get a different spirit. We only submit our will to the Holy Spirit and we are part of the family of God by adoption.

 

[David in NJ]

Brother you are confusing yourself - the only part of our triune being that dies is the physical body. Our spirit/soul are permanently attached and return to our Maker.

If you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour and have been Born-Again by the power of God, then seek the Father for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Oseas]

The Word is GOD.

And except these days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake these days shall be shortened.

Matt.24:v.15 and 21-25
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except these days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake these days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.



Two days was determined to prepare material (Hoseas 6:v.2) and also create in the image and likeness of God the heirs of the earth(John 3:v.5-6 and Mat.5:v.5), coheirs with Christ of the kingdom of God.

Revelation 6:v.2 combined with Psalm 45:v.4-5 and Psalm 7:v.-12-13
Rev.6:v.2- I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a BOW;
Ps.45:v.4-5:- 4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things. 5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.


Psalm 7:v.11-13: - 11 God Judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every Day(a Day=1.000 years). 12 If he turn not, he will whet His Sword; he hath bent his BOW, and made it ready. 13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth His ARROWS against the persecutors.


Revelation 7:v.1-4 and 9-10-and 13-14
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth (North South East West), holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth(Israel-the clay-the dry land), nor on the sea(the Gentiles, or peoples, and NATIONS, and multitudes of all tongues) nor on any tree.(the disciples of JESUS, the believers)
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

13 And one of the(24)elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 8:v.1-5 and 6 to 13
1And when he had opened the seventh seal,there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.(around21years(1.000/24~42/2=21)
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Revelation 8:v.6 to 13

Punishments and punishments. Punishments and punishments. Punishments and punishments. Punishments and punishments-Revelation 8:v.6 to 12.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

And except these days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake these days shall be shortened.

It seems that those who imagine to escape or and want to escape the days that will be shortenned for the love of the elect, they do not belong to the number of the elect.

Be careful, or get ready