An analogy to illustrate God's sovereignty and Our free will.

[Taken]

Where is free will referred to in the Bible?

Deut 23:
[23] That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

 

[Curtis]

Hello David the confession of faith is used because it says the most that it could say in the least amount of words and it's pretty thorough and answer to the OP.
Noticing the fine lists of verses that you offered, faith is the instrumentality not the cause.
It is always by or through faith....never BECAUSE of faith. Saving faith is not found in the sinner unless granted by God.
Repentance and faith are part of the gift of salvation.

Faith is the gift that we get to grace THROUGH- and faith comes as a response to hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17 - instead of coming through irresistible grace and regeneration before belief can come, as John Calvin claimed.

We access grace by faith, per Romans 5, and repentance is something we have to do, to be saved.
Acts 3:19.

And there’s no irresistible grace, because the Holy Spirit, who draws us to Christ, is resistible, as Stephen lets us know.

And Israel proves that freewill exists, but it’s late and past bedtime, but I will be glad to explain how the nation of Israel falsifies reformed election dogma, tomorrow.

Maranatha

 

[Curtis]

What people believe or do not believe should be based on the actual teaching, not strawmen.

Oh goody - you were able to work STRAW MAN.into the conversation - which is calvinism 101.

Don’t forget to use exegesis, eisegesis , and hermeneutics, too.

Shalom

 

[QuickFilly]

"Curtis,

[Except that’s not how reformed theology and Calvinism works.]

You do not have a correct understanding.

[In that doctrine, man is born totally depraved and spiritually dead, and as a dead man, cannot respond to the gospel or have any faith, until God First regenerates them and makes him alive, and then he believes.

In other words, first God saves the elect with a spiritual rebirth, then they believe.]

Regeneration and belief happen at one point in time.Dead men need life to believe.
eph2:1-4

[But the non elect have been predestined to damnation from the founding of the world,]

There is no scripture that says this.You are misusing the term predestination;
Here is a confessional statement of what the actual teaching is;
1689
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace
others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

[thus God withholds regeneration, making it impossible for them to believe, then damns them for their unbelief.]

Nothing says God is obligated to save anyone. Do not blame God for man's sin.

[Therefore the vast majority of mankind will go to hell- since Jesus said FEW will be saved, and MOST will be lost ]

Actually, there will be a multitude saved that no man can number.
Sorry to confuse you with Scripture but it says this;
gen.13
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Gen15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

So now, you blame God for man's sin and doubt these clear declarations?
[- and they will be in torments forever because God decreed them there, arbitrarily],
The biblical God does nothing "arbitrarily"...perhaps you should study the attributes of God before you carry on with these unfortunate posts.
isa46;
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

[Calvinism is a vile insult of Gods character and nature]

You have issues with God Himself, not Calvinism

If you're Calvinist perhaps it is that which lets you miss that what Curtis observed about the non-elect being predestined by God unto damnation is in effect stated in the confessional you posted. "Others" in this confessional excerpt refers of course to the non-elect.
"others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his (God's) glorious justice."

That excerpt is crystal clear. The non-elect are left to act in their sin by God as they are condemned for it. And that then is to be praised as an act of God's glorious justice.

If people are born by the will of God to be totally depraved and unable to respond to the Gospel without God lifting their inability to do so, that being made possible because God predestined them to be those he elected to save from their God appointed condition, then those who are not predetermined to be God's elect are then left to die totally depraved spiritually dead and unable to respond to the Gospel, by God's predetermination and will.

For me, the troubling thing isn't Calvinism itself. It is that Calvinism, the tenets of which predated John Calvin, is sustained by scripture itself.

 

[QuickFilly]

Deut 23:
[23] That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

Genesis 41:32
And the doubling of Pharaoh's dream means that the thing is fixed by God, and God will shortly bring it about.

I think if we accept God is Sovereign, then those passages in the Bible that refer to God and determinism impart what we imagine is our act of free choice is actually aligned with God's predestination of all things.

 

[farouk]

If you're Calvinist perhaps it is that which lets you miss that what Curtis observed about the non-elect being predestined by God unto damnation is in effect stated in the confessional you posted. "Others" in this confessional excerpt refers of course to the non-elect.
"others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his (God's) glorious justice."

That excerpt is crystal clear. The non-elect are left to act in their sin by God as they are condemned for it. And that then is to be praised as an act of God's glorious justice.

If people are born by the will of God to be totally depraved and unable to respond to the Gospel without God lifting their inability to do so, that being made possible because God predestined them to be those he elected to save from their God appointed condition, then those who are not predetermined to be God's elect are then left to die totally depraved spiritually dead and unable to respond to the Gospel, by God's predetermination and will.

For me, the troubling thing isn't Calvinism itself. It is that Calvinism, the tenets of which predated John Calvin, is sustained by scripture itself.

Another way of stating this might be with the question: Are you and I sinners? (Romans 3.23).

 

[Cooper]

Everyone is predestined to glory with Christ. The trouble is many people prefer what this world has to offer, and that is the way they chose to go. It is their choice to reject Christ. Do they want to live a life that is pleasing to God? Not likely!

 

[David H.]

Hello David the confession of faith is used because it says the most that it could say in the least amount of words and it's pretty thorough and answer to the OP.
Noticing the fine lists of verses that you offered, faith is the instrumentality not the cause.
It is always by or through faith....never BECAUSE of faith. Saving faith is not found in the sinner unless granted by God.
Repentance and faith are part of the gift of salvation.

I Am Just going by what scripture says which is that faith comes by hearing. There is no need to preach the Gospel if faith is predetermined, yet we are told to preach the Gospel to all the world. The hearing of faith is the key. Some choose to Not hear, others choose to hear Those who hear, believe. Hearing is the "cause" of faith which comes by the preaching of the Gospel (The Word of God). Grace is Mechanism by which salvation comes to the Believer who has heard and received the Gospel.

Hearing is not a meritorious work, But rather a receiving of a free gift. The Calvinist Has it backwards.

Let's say I am a Billionaire, and I set up a scholarship for scholars who want to study at a university of my choosing. If No One hears of that scholarship, no one will apply and receive that scholarship. The Student must hear of that scholarship, and then must believe enough to apply for that scholarship and then they will receive that scholarship. If No one hears, no one receives. I do not just hand out the scholarship to all students at the school although the scholarship is available for all of them if they apply for it.

That is how foolish it is to reject the Gospel, and man has the power to do just that.

 

[Iconoclast]

Deut 23:
[23] That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

This is not speaking of mans will being free...it is speaking of an offering not commanded by the law.there are several verses speaking of these offerings, not commanded by law.

 

[Iconoclast]

Everyone is predestined to glory with Christ. The trouble is many people prefer what this world has to offer, and that is the way they chose to go. It is their choice to reject Christ. Do they want to live a life that is pleasing to God? Not likely!

The scripture does not speak of everyone being predestined to glory with Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Curtis,
[And there’s no irresistible grace, because the Holy Spirit, who draws us to Christ, is resistible, as Stephen lets us know.]

Men always resist the grace of God. Effectual or irresistible grace is saving grace that is not resisted but rather welcomed by the elect sheep.

 

[Iconoclast]

If you're Calvinist perhaps it is that which lets you miss that what Curtis observed about the non-elect being predestined by God unto damnation is in effect stated in the confessional you posted. "Others" in this confessional excerpt refers of course to the non-elect.
"others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his (God's) glorious justice."

That excerpt is crystal clear. The non-elect are left to act in their sin by God as they are condemned for it. And that then is to be praised as an act of God's glorious justice.

If people are born by the will of God to be totally depraved and unable to respond to the Gospel without God lifting their inability to do so, that being made possible because God predestined them to be those he elected to save from their God appointed condition, then those who are not predetermined to be God's elect are then left to die totally depraved spiritually dead and unable to respond to the Gospel, by God's predetermination and will.

For me, the troubling thing isn't Calvinism itself. It is that Calvinism, the tenets of which predated John Calvin, is sustained by scripture itself.

God has ordained that all who remain dead in Adam will perish and go into second death.
Nowhere is the word predestined used in that way.
Predestination is used in a positive way to describe the work of God in bringing the elect sheep to be conformed to the Image of the Son.

 

[Iconoclast]

Curtis,
[Oh goody - you were able to work STRAW MAN.into the conversation - which is calvinism 101.
Don’t forget to use exegesis, eisegesis , and hermeneutics, too.]

It was easy to do with those such as yourself who resist true teaching. You cannot form a biblical case, so you are left with these other forms of expression. I understand.

 

[Iconoclast]

Stumpmaster,
[Funny, it's actually a main plank of Calvinism that reprobates remain lost and dead in their sins]

Reprobation is a true teaching.

[because God denies them the benefit of faith, repentance and salvation.]

They are rejected because they love sin and hate God and His truth,
Do not blame god that men love sin.
2thess2;
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Iconoclast]

Coherency doesn't attend your post, Iconoclast.
The iconic Calvinist defence is that their critics have no Scriptural backing, and yet they do.

You are welcome to offer your verses.
Everyone thinks they have scriptural backing, until they are examined by others.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Satan and his cohort, Adam and Eve in Eden, Cain, Esau, Pharoah opposing Moses in Egypt, Judas, Ananais and Saphira, and anyone who stubbornly resists the grace of God do become subject to predetermined consequences, but their urge to sin doesn't come from God.

They are rejected because they love sin and hate God and His truth,
Do not blame [god] God that men love sin.

Obviously we agree on this, so why imply otherwise?

Blaming God for the Fall and its consequences is not the issue under discussion. Somehow my early post that stated the urge to sin does not come from God, was selectively ignored so that I could be accused of blaming God for the false Calvinist adjunct of Predetermined Reprobation.

That sort of non sequitur rhetoric is typical of spurious cultish programming, which needs to be rebuked in the love of Christ so that productive edification can be promoted.

 

[Taken]

This is not speaking of mans will being free...it is speaking of an offering not commanded by the law.there are several verses speaking of these offerings, not commanded by law.

If not by your own free will to address me, with your words....Then What exactly made you post to me?

 

[Taken]

Genesis 41:32
And the doubling of Pharaoh's dream means that the thing is fixed by God, and God will shortly bring it about.

I think if we accept God is Sovereign, then those passages in the Bible that refer to God and determinism impart what we imagine is our act of free choice is actually aligned with God's predestination of all things.

It's not about what God KNOWS, but rather what a man does NOT KNOW.
If man had NOT freewill...he could never freely choose to Believe, Love God or freely choose to Reject God.

Man, being in Gods Likeness...turn the table.
Would you be satisfied IF you were HAD no Choice to freely LOVE a mate? If they HAD no Choice to freely LOVE you?
You do not KNOW, until you choose.
* God "knowing" WHAT you will choose, is very different than God "deciding" WHAT you will choose.
* See?

 

[Iconoclast]

Obviously we agree on this, so why imply otherwise?

Blaming God for the Fall and its consequences is not the issue under discussion. Somehow my early post that stated the urge to sin does not come from God, was selectively ignored so that I could be accused of blaming God for the false Calvinist adjunct of Predetermined Reprobation.

That sort of non sequitur rhetoric is typical of spurious cultish programming, which needs to be rebuked in the love of Christ so that productive edification can be promoted.

I did n

If not by your own free will to address me, with your words....Then What exactly made you post to me?

Men have self will...that is scriptural.
Your will is bound by your nature.
It is not "free"

In heaven, glorified persons will not be free to sin.
We are not "free" to sin now, but we are still able to.
God does not have "free will". He is not free to sin. His Holy nature cannot sin.

 

[QuickFilly]

It's not about what God KNOWS, but rather what a man does NOT KNOW.
If man had NOT freewill...he could never freely choose to Believe, Love God or freely choose to Reject God.

Man, being in Gods Likeness...turn the table.
Would you be satisfied IF you were HAD no Choice to freely LOVE a mate? If they HAD no Choice to freely LOVE you?
You do not KNOW, until you choose.
* God "knowing" WHAT you will choose, is very different than God "deciding" WHAT you will choose.
* See?

I see. Thanks.
However, Predestination, Predeterminism, are not anything to do with what you describe.