The Restrainer. And the Restrained.

[farouk]

The case was made in the OP. Rome is not the Restrainer. It is bad theology. I only shot from one side of my hips, maybe I should read your posts too ... nah ...I'll pass.

I think it's easy to underestimate the sheer restraining influence of the Holy Spirit in a rebellious and wicked world...

 

[CharismaticLady]

This is a given CL; if the chronological order is misunderstood or an incorrect application is applied it ensures confusion resulting in a muddled understanding.

When the Antichrist is revealed, God will put a strong delusion on all the Gentiles who refused to believe when they had the chance. But the Jews will have their blindness lifted by God at the same time, so that last remnant can be saved and come into Christ's Church.

 

[Waiting on him]

When the Antichrist is revealed, God will put a strong delusion on all the Gentiles who refused to believe when they had the chance. But the Jews will have their blindness lifted by God at the same time, so that last remnant can be saved and come into Christ's Church.

The last remnant, what does that even mean?

 

[CharismaticLady]

The last remnant, what does that even mean?

Jews alive during the last seven years before the second coming.

 

[quietthinker]

When the Antichrist is revealed, God will put a strong delusion on all the Gentiles who refused to believe when they had the chance. But the Jews will have their blindness lifted by God at the same time, so that last remnant can be saved and come into Christ's Church.

Oh dear!

 

[Stumpmaster]

Something I don't understand in your POV here, what exactly was being withheld?

2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

What is the "mystery of iniquity" which was working, that Rome was restraining?

Much love!

Hi marks, my friend.

• You ask: "What is being withheld?"

• Scripture tells us it it the disclosing of the Lawless One/that Wicked [Gr. anomos]

Strongs G459
ἄνομος
anomos
an'-om-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G3551; lawless, that is, (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication a Gentile), or (positively) wicked: - without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.
Total KJV occurrences: 10

• You ask in part: "What is the mystery of iniquity/wickedness/lawlessness [Gr. anomia] . . ."

1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.

• Scripture speaks in numerous places of things hidden, such as the love of money being the root of all kinds of evil, and the root of bitterness springing up to defile many, and things done secretly in darkness.

Strongs G458
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
Total KJV occurrences: 15

2Th 2:6-8 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. (7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. (8) And then the lawless one [anomos] will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Additional Material From my Notes:
BABYLON & THE BASKET OF WICKEDNESS

ZECHARIAH 5:6-11


A Vision of a Woman in a Basket

Zec 5:5 Then the angel who talked with me came forward, and said to me, “Lift up now your eyes, and see what is this that is appearing.”

Zec 5:6 I said, “What is it?” He said, “This is the ephah basket that is appearing.” He said moreover, “This is their appearance in all the land

Zec 5:7 (and behold, a talent of lead was lifted up); and this is a woman sitting in the middle of the ephah basket.”

Zec 5:8 He said, “This is Wickedness;” and he threw her down into the middle of the ephah basket; and he threw the weight of lead on its mouth.

Zec 5:9 Then lifted I up my eyes, and saw, and behold, there were two women, and the wind was in their wings. Now they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the ephah basket between earth and the sky.

Zec 5:10 Then I said to the angel who talked with me, “Where are these carrying the ephah basket?”

Zec 5:11 He said to me, “To build her a house in the land of Shinar. When it is prepared, she will be set there in her own place.”

Shinar is the region in southern Mesopotamia where Nimrod's kingdom commenced. It is also the location of the tower of Babel (Genesis 11:2).

An Analogy Of The Two Women With Stork-Like Wings:

· Spiritual Harlotries

· Spiritual Abominations

· Off-spring of the Whore of Babylon who take their Mother home to be established in the iniquitous infrastructure of world affairs.

Rev 17:18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

 

[Brakelite]

News flash! The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.
God has restrained evil throughout history, He is in control, and allows evil for a purpose.
Jesus had to leave when He was here in order for the Holy Spirit to come. And He will not come until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way.
The Holy Spirit has worked through the Church to restrain evil. When the Church, (Temple of the Holy Spirit), is taken up (out of the way), then evil will be unrestrained and multiplied ... be out of control. Then Satan will have full reign.

I already pointed this out, but some will not accept it.

Hi guys. Look. I don't altogether disagree with either of you. The holy Spirit is certainly sent by God to restrain sin. And yes, Daniel tells us of instances where angels intervened in the affairs of geopolitical politics in order to establish God's will in the earth. Even in us as individuals, the Spirit of God abides within and through the word of God inspires, corrects, encourages, informs and rebukes us as necessary in order to sanctify our hearts in holiness and righteousness. So yes. Generically speaking and in general principles God through His Spirit does inhibit the extent of wickedness in the earth, and Ronald, I agree that as the holy Spirit is withdrawn form the earth in the final days, this will enable the forces of darkness to exercise far greater violence and wickedness in the earth than ever before. However.
This discussion is not about generic principles. This is about specific local literal powers in prophecy. Paul is not relying solely on inspiration when discussing these matters, he would be following the instruction of Jesus in following the prophecies given to Israel which apply specifically to his time, and that of the church immediately following his demise. He is explaining to the Thessalonians local literal political movements, as was Daniel when speaking of the horns that would grow from the 4th beast, Rome; local movements that would surely take place, that is, the removal of the Roman empire, the rise of ten powers in it's place, 3 that would be uprooted by an 11th, and it was this particular power, spoken of as the little horn in Daniel 7, that Paul was particularly concerned with. As was Daniel, enquiring of the angel more information regarding this power. This was why those early church writers such as Lancantius and others, who recognized that so long as the rule and power of Rome remained, there was no possibility of such a power rising. History however, as did the prophecies of Daniel and Paul, that Rome was eventually removed...10 horns did arise... An 11th arose from among them, and this 11th horn, the 'little' one, rise to a position of such influence and strength that in response to his pleading, 3 of those 10 were destroyed by the eastern Roman emperor. This vacuum then which was left in Rome, first after the departure of Constantine to Istanbul (Constantinople) , and then by the destruction of the ruling Gothic power in Italy, was filled by the little horn. But this little horn was still Roman. And believe it or not, it was also ostensibly Christian. This fulfilled not only the prophecies of Daniel, but those of Jesus and Paul.



KJV Acts 20:28-31
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul spoke the above words in Ephesus. Thessalonica was just up the road. This was Paul's concern for the future. The man of sin... The false counterfeit Christian little horn arising from the ruins of the Roman empire.

KJV 1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Notice please that it is false religion, a counterfeit Christianity that Jesus and Paul are warning about.

KJV Matthew 7:15
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

KJV John 16:1-3
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Thus the man of sin, operating as the son of perdition like Judas, came from within the church to betray Christ and His people. This was the literal falling away, the divorce or apostasy, of the church in Rome as she sought and grasped political power, and using that political power for the following 1000 years or more to enhance her religious power in persecuting and making war with the saints, claiming blasphemous titles and godly prerogatives for itself that belong only to God, opposing and exalting himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, sitting in the temple of God, the church, showing himself that he is God.

Local literal powers meeting perfectly all the criteria demanded of them by prophecy. And this little horn, this Antichrist power, has since grown to become a beast in it's own right, described in brilliant detail in Revelation 13, having the very same characteristics and lifespan as the little horn of Daniel 7. Which perfectly explains how the Antichrist grew out of Rome, and will still be here to be destroyed at the second coming.
And all the reformers agreed with this. This isn't a new teaching. It's been around since the time of the most earliest Christian churches, it's still relevant, and nothing can change it. Looking for any fulfillment in any other entity at any time in history is impossible.

 

[Brakelite]

Hi guys. Look. I don't altogether disagree with either of you. The holy Spirit is certainly sent by God to restrain sin. And yes, Daniel tells us of instances where angels intervened in the affairs of geopolitical politics in order to establish God's will in the earth. Even in us as individuals, the Spirit of God abides within and through the word of God inspires, corrects, encourages, informs and rebukes us as necessary in order to sanctify our hearts in holiness and righteousness. So yes. Generically speaking and in general principles God through His Spirit does inhibit the extent of wickedness in the earth, and Ronald, I agree that as the holy Spirit is withdrawn form the earth in the final days, this will enable the forces of darkness to exercise far greater violence and wickedness in the earth than ever before. However.
This discussion is not about generic principles. This is about specific local literal powers in prophecy. Paul is not relying solely on inspiration when discussing these matters, he would be following the instruction of Jesus in following the prophecies given to Israel which apply specifically to his time, and that of the church immediately following his demise. He is explaining to the Thessalonians local literal political movements, as was Daniel when speaking of the horns that would grow from the 4th beast, Rome; local movements that would surely take place, that is, the removal of the Roman empire, the rise of ten powers in it's place, 3 that would be uprooted by an 11th, and it was this particular power, spoken of as the little horn in Daniel 7, that Paul was particularly concerned with. As was Daniel, enquiring of the angel more information regarding this power. This was why those early church writers such as Lancantius and others, who recognized that so long as the rule and power of Rome remained, there was no possibility of such a power rising. History however, as did the prophecies of Daniel and Paul, that Rome was eventually removed...10 horns did arise... An 11th arose from among them, and this 11th horn, the 'little' one, rise to a position of such influence and strength that in response to his pleading, 3 of those 10 were destroyed by the eastern Roman emperor. This vacuum then which was left in Rome, first after the departure of Constantine to Istanbul (Constantinople) , and then by the destruction of the ruling Gothic power in Italy, was filled by the little horn. But this little horn was still Roman. And believe it or not, it was also ostensibly Christian. This fulfilled not only the prophecies of Daniel, but those of Jesus and Paul.



KJV Acts 20:28-31
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul spoke the above words in Ephesus. Thessalonica was just up the road. This was Paul's concern for the future. The man of sin... The false counterfeit Christian little horn arising from the ruins of the Roman empire.

KJV 1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Notice please that it is false religion, a counterfeit Christianity that Jesus and Paul are warning about.

KJV Matthew 7:15
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

KJV John 16:1-3
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Thus the man of sin, operating as the son of perdition like Judas, came from within the church to betray Christ and His people. This was the literal falling away, the divorce or apostasy, of the church in Rome as she sought and grasped political power, and using that political power for the following 1000 years or more to enhance her religious power in persecuting and making war with the saints, claiming blasphemous titles and godly prerogatives for itself that belong only to God, opposing and exalting himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, sitting in the temple of God, the church, showing himself that he is God.

Local literal powers meeting perfectly all the criteria demanded of them by prophecy. And this little horn, this Antichrist power, has since grown to become a beast in it's own right, described in brilliant detail in Revelation 13, having the very same characteristics and lifespan as the little horn of Daniel 7. Which perfectly explains how the Antichrist grew out of Rome, and will still be here to be destroyed at the second coming.
And all the reformers agreed with this. This isn't a new teaching. It's been around since the time of the most earliest Christian churches, it's still relevant, and nothing can change it. Looking for any fulfillment in any other entity at any time in history is impossible.

I want to add to the above. After these local literal powers were established, they did undergo a metamorphosis. This was indicated in the prophecies. In Daniel 8, a little horn arose from the four winds, at first conquering on a horizontal level. Having victories over other powers, taking land and enslaving people, typical of predatory political empires as described in Daniel 7. However, this changed. After describing in verse 9 how this power grew even greater than any power before it, including Alexander the Great, it underwent a change in direction.
KJV Daniel 8:10
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

This change is another description of the political and religious change that the Roman empire underwent when Rome was taken over by the church. Which is why the little horn in Daniel 7:24 would be diverse from all that had gone before. It was a religious power. And not just strictly pagan as were the empires that preceded it, this power was professedly a Christian power, but was in reality a power that not only attacked the saints, but attacked truth, attacked God's plan of salvation within the sanctuary (the daily), and in doing so introduced a counterfeit, another plan of salvation whereby she exalted herself, her own sanctuary, her own priesthood, by which all must be saved. And she tolerated no other, killing everyone, even warring against her detractors, demanding that only through her and from her was truth.
Yes. That's right. God did not forget to mention, nor did He hide this "falling away" as Paul mentioned, from His prophets, which has turned out to be the greatest apostasy in history. Sadly, modem prophetic interpreters would have us believe that God didn't know about it. Or that it came by surprise and caught Him off guard. Yet the reformers knew. But we no longer believe the reformers huh.

 

[Brakelite]

I want to add to the above. After these local literal powers were established, they didn't undergo a metamorphosis. This was indicated in the prophecies. In Daniel 8, a little horn arose from the four winds, at first conquering on a horizontal level. Having victories over other powers, taking land and enslaving people, typical of predatory political empires as described in Daniel 7. However, this changed. After describing in verse 9 how this power grew even greater than any power before it, including Alexander the Great, it underwent a change in direction.
KJV Daniel 8:10
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

This change is another description of the political and religious change that the Roman empire underwent when Rome was taken over by the church. Which is why the little horn in Daniel 7:24 would be diverse from all that had gone before. It was a religious power. And not just strictly pagan as were the empires that preceded it, this power was professedly a Christian power, but was in reality a power that not only attacked the saints, but attacked truth, attacked God's plan of salvation within the sanctuary (the daily), and in doing so introduced a counterfeit, another plan of salvation whereby she exalted herself, her own sanctuary, her own priesthood, by which all must be saved. And she tolerated no other, killing everyone, even warring against her detractors, demanding that only through her and from her was truth.
Yes. That's right. God did not forget to mention, nor did He hide this "falling away" as Paul mentioned, from His prophets, which has turned out to be the greatest apostasy in history. Sadly, modem prophetic interpreters would have us believe that God didn't know about it. Or that it came by surprise and caught Him off guard. Yet the reformers knew. But we no longer believe the reformers huh.

Oh, and that change, that metamorphosis, that change in direction from being horizontally focused on conquering empires, also had an impact on how we were to view the prophecies from the time of the little horn into the future. From being literal localized political powers, as depicted by Daniel, that little horn grew into a breast in it's own right as I said, but that beast is no longer a literal localized power. It's a global spiritual power. As are the other beasts of Revelation.

 

[quietthinker]

Oh, and that change, that metamorphosis, that change in direction from being horizontally focused on conquering empires, also had an impact on how we were to view the prophecies from the time of the little horn into the future. From being literal localized political powers, as depicted by Daniel, that little horn grew into a breast in it's own right as I said, but that beast is no longer a literal localized power. It's a global spiritual power. As are the other beasts of Revelation.

Well done backlit...a nice summary!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Oh dear!

Aw, QT, you called me dear. How sweet.

 

[Brakelite]

Aw, QT, you called me dear. How sweet.

And you're calling him cutie. This is getting awkward.

 

[Heart2Soul]

And you're calling him cutie. This is getting awkward.

that's funny

 

[Brakelite]

that's funny

As moderator, I suggest you keep a wary eye on proceedings.

 

[marks]

Hi marks, my friend.

• You ask: "What is being withheld?"

• Scripture tells us it it the disclosing of the Lawless One/that Wicked [Gr. anomos]

So then the "mystery of iniquity" is the continued hiding of the lawless one?

I think that there is a power of lawlessness at work, and that this power is being held back. Kind of like in Ephesians,

Ephesians 2:2 KJV
2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

This spirit that now works in the children of disobedience is called the "power of the air", and it has a "prince", and it works in these children.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The restrainer . . . why restrain?

Romans 8:28 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

And if it cannot work for our good? It is restrained.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

The restrainer . . . why restrain?

Romans 8:28 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

And if it cannot work for our good? It is restrained.

Much love!

Restrained by a local power, pagan Rome, but above and beyond the will of God being established in order to protect His church until they were better established and better equipped to recognize, and resist the impending apostasy.

 

[marks]

Restrained by a local power, pagan Rome,

I don't see Rome as the restrainer. What would Rome have been restraining? What is the "mystery of iniquity"? Mystery - musterion - is something unknowable without being revealed.

Some of the early writers did call the restrainer "Rome", I know, but we don't know if this was a minority opinion, or even an aberation, only that there are a few mentions recorded in some of the remaining writings. I don't see it fitting the Scriptures myself.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

I don't see Rome as the restrainer. What would Rome have been restraining? What is the "mystery of iniquity"? Mystery - musterion - is something unknowable without being revealed.

Some of the early writers did call the restrainer "Rome", I know, but we don't know if this was a minority opinion, or even an aberation, only that there are a few mentions recorded in some of the remaining writings. I don't see it fitting the Scriptures myself.

Much love!

Do you have an alternative to the identity of the 'terrible beast' of Daniel 7 other than Rome?

 

[marks]

Do you have an alternative to the identity of the 'terrible beast' of Daniel 7 other than Rome?

To me that's not the point.

Much love!