The Millennial Kingdom

[Truth7t7]

Try again. You missed the part where all Israel will be saved, after they see the deliverer (guess who that is) come out of Zion ( guess where that is, and when that is).

Israel is blinded in part UNTIL the fulness of the gentiles comes in.

The end of the age of the gentiles comes with the mid trib rapture that Matthew, Mark, and Luke show occurs right after the AOD/SOP event which is mid 70th week, per Daniel.

All Israel Will Be Saved, When The Last Name Is Added To The Book Of Life It Will Be Fulfilled

The verse below "Destroys" your claim that all "Jews" will be saved, as it clearly states only the (Remnant Elect Jew) is saved, the rest of the Jews will be blind to salvation (Fact) read it again and again.

Your problem is, you refuse to accept the fact that the Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed (By Faith) not ethnic heritage

(Israel Hath Not Obtained)

Romans 11:7KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

 

[Truth7t7]

Another question do you think Christ will have two sets of people Israel and the Church ?

Yes that's what dispensationalism falsely believes and teaches, (Two Peoples Of God) (Jews/Church) a heresy known as (Dual Covenant Theology)

There is (One Covenant) between God and man, the shed blood on Calvary, that has taken away the worlds sin for all that receive this by faith to salvation

 

[Curtis]

Big Smiles, The Scripture Is Clearly Talking About Israel Of The Flesh (Jews) Not Arabs As You Claim

I Give You 10 Points On That Claim, Its A New One

The Church Is The Israel Of God, Children Of The Promised Seed

Two Israel's Are Seen Below, (1.) Israel Of The Flesh (Jews) And (2.) Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed

Israel Of The Flesh, These Are Not The Children Of God, Plain, Simple, Easy To Understand

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

It’s talking about the descendants of Isaac, vs the fake Israel, so it’s obviously talking about the descendants of Ishmael, because all Jews without exception came from Isaac.

Try again.

 

[Curtis]

All Israel Will Be Saved, When The Last Name Is Added To The Book Of Life It Will Be Fulfilled

The verse below "Destroys" your claim that all "Jews" will be saved, as it clearly states only the (Remnant Elect Jew) is saved, the rest of the Jews will be blind to salvation (Fact) read it again and again.

Your problem is, you refuse to accept the fact that the Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed (By Faith) not ethnic heritage

(Israel Hath Not Obtained)

Romans 11:7KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

You can.keep ignoring the rest of the passage all you want. I prefer truth over sectarian bias.

It unequivocally says ALL ISRAEL alive to see the deliver come out of Zion, will be saved FOR He, the deliverer, aka Jesus, shall turn AWAY unrighteousness FROM JACOB, aka unbelieving Israel.

Your selective reading bias is duly noted.

Rom 11:26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

All means all.

 

[Truth7t7]

It’s talking about the descendants of Isaac, vs the fake Israel, so it’s obviously talking about the descendants of Ishmael, because all Jews without exception came from Isaac.

Try again.

We will disagree, Jews vs Church

 

[Truth7t7]

You can.keep ignoring the rest of the passage all you want. I prefer truth over sectarian bias.

It unequivocally says ALL ISRAEL alive to see the deliver come out of Zion, will be saved FOR He, the deliverer, aka Jesus, shall turn AWAY unrighteousness FROM JACOB, aka unbelieving Israel.

Your selective reading bias is duly noted.

Rom 11:26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

All means all.

Your Bias Disregards Those Blinded As If Its Non-Existent (Israel Hath Not Obtained) (The Rest Were Blinded) Not Saved

Romans 11:7KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

 

[n2thelight]

Try reading Romans 11. They are ungodly and blinded in part UNTIL the age of the gentiles is over, and they see Jesus coming out of Zion then ALL of Israel alive at that time WILL BE SAVED (because they realize Jesus is their real Messiah)

Israel is like a prodigal son nation, temporarily.

The Prodigal so came back correct ? What you saying is that after they see Christ they will return to Him ,that's not gonna happen ,they as well as anyone else MUST believe NOW, this is the age of grace , faith .

If not ,although changed at His return , you will be dead spiritually ,meaning your soul can die the 2nd death.

As for that nation over there, they should had been named Judah... All Israel are NOT just Jew's , only two tribes

 

[Oseas]

Rom 11:26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
All means all.

Yes, all means all.

For example: 1Kings 20:v.15
15 Then he numbered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were two hundred and thirty two: and after them he numbered all the people, even all the children of Israel, being seven thousand. (What? Only 7.000? Were there only these ALL the people of Israel? And the others? Why were not them counted as the children of Israel? Because they were idolaters like the Gentile peoples? they believed not in GOD? they were rebel? The killed the true prophets of the LORD? GOD said: 1Kings 19:v.18 - 18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him. And 1Sam.15:v.23KJV says:
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the Word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Then only 7 thousand are saved, the others, i.e. the idolaters and rebels will be cast into the hell's fire, they will be cast into the lake which burns with fire and brimstone:
Revelation 21:v.8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The same will occur or will be made now in the end of the times with them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie-Rev.3:v.9; I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Rev.2:v.9; these liars will likewise be cast into the lake of fire. Rev.21:v.8 - The Word is GOD.

That said, in the Word of GOD doesn't always ALL means ALL.

 

[Curtis]

Yes, all means all.

For example: 1Kings 20:v.15
15 Then he numbered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were two hundred and thirty two: and after them he numbered all the people, even all the children of Israel, being seven thousand. (What? Only 7.000? Were only these ALL the people of Israel? And the others? Why were not them counted as the children of Israel? Because they were idolaters like the Gentile peoples? they believed not in GOD? they were rebel? The killed the true prophets of the LORD? GOD said: 1Kings 19:v.18 - 18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him. And 1Sam.15:v.23KJV says:
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the Word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Then only 7 thousand are saved, the others, i.e. the idolaters and rebels will be cast into the hell's fire, they will be cast into the lake which burns with fire and brimstone:
Revelation 21:v.8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The same will occur or will be made now in the end of the times with them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie-Rev.3:v.9; I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Rev.2:v.9; these liars will likewise be cast into the lake of fire. Rev.21:v.8 - The Word is GOD.

That said, in the Word of GOD doesn't always ALL means ALL.

Except the number is not limited to a specific number in Romans 11

It says all Israel that sees Jesus come out of Jerusalem will be saved. The context is all Israel that are alive to see His coming, will be saved, for He will remove unrighteousness from Jacob - unbelieving Israel.

Thus you can quote all you want about the unrighteous going to the lake of fire.

Jesus removes unrighteousness from Jacob.

 

[Curtis]

The Prodigal so came back correct ? What you saying is that after they see Christ they will return to Him ,that's not gonna happen ,they as well as anyone else MUST believe NOW, this is the age of grace , faith .

If not ,although changed at His return , you will be dead spiritually ,meaning your soul can die the 2nd death.

As for that nation over there, they should had been named Judah... All Israel are NOT just Jew's , only two tribes

Romans 11 says they will be saved when they see the deliverer, Jesus, come out of Zion, Jerusalem, and He will remove unrighteousness from Jacob.

You can choose to contradict clear and unequivocal scripture, but I’ll go by what is written.

You say they can’t be saved then - Paul says they will be - guess who I believe?

Maranatha

 

[n2thelight]

Romans 11 says they will be saved when they see the deliverer, Jesus, come out of Zion, Jerusalem, and He will remove unrighteousness from Jacob.

You can choose to contradict clear and unequivocal scripture, but I’ll go by what is written.

You say they can’t be saved then - Paul says they will be - guess who I believe?

Maranatha

Okay let's do Romans 11

Romans 11:7 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"

Israel is not the "election", for the "election" is within all races. They are the ones that made a stand in the first earth age. The "election" are the ones that have the eyes to see and the ears to hear and understand God's Word, while the rest were blinded. Those other's minds and hearts were hardened to the Scriptures, and the Word of God became foolishness to them. Yet, these elect are those "set aside ones" from Romans eight. They are the ones that were not deceived by Satan in the first earth age, nor will they be deceived in this earth age. In other Words these elect are the proven tested children of God. These elect are the ones that God can intercede in their lives, even without their asking Him for the help.

If you not in Christ you are NOT of Israel, period

 

[Zao is life]

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zech. 12:9, 10

>>> When every eye sees Him they will mourn. These are the Jews, whose forefathers pierced Him.

Israel, a remnant, will be saved during this time and it is apparent IMHO, that they come to this realization when they see Christ coming. THEY see Him and mourn, realizing that He was and is their true Messiah

So it may be significant then that Joseph, ruler of all Egypt, is a type of Christ in many ways, and his brothers did not recognize him for who he was until he revealed to them who he was - and he only did so when he preceived through Judah's words that Judah (who had been the one instigating the selling of Jospeh into slavery), had finally repented of what he had done, and was completely remorseful.

Joseph could have had them all put to death on the spot - he had all the power & authority of Pharaoh to do so - but he did not. Instead, he forgave them, and then the entire family came to live with Joseph in the adyllic land of Goshen, where they lived in peace, safety and prosperity until another Pharaoh arose who had not known Joseph (I'm not saying it's most defintely or most certainly a type of the millennium, but I bear it in mind).

“Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. Ezek. 16:60

“Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him: and all the tribes of the Earth will mourn over Him, so it is to be. Amen.” Rev.1:7

Israel was scattered for almost 18 centuries, but were brought back to their home once again. “but – As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them. For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers.” Jer. 16:15

“Say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD, - Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land.” Ezek.37:21 The Jewish nation became a state in 1948/49. This gathering of Israel is significant.

Many scholars agree that this is when the clock started to tick, a sign that this would be the last generation that would see the end of the ages, the Gentile nations and the Second Coming.

Your understanding is partly good and partly faulty. There is a very important fact which, sadly, only Rabbis who don't even believe in Jesus will able to help Christians to stop missing regarding the Old Testament prophecies concerning Israel (because almost all Christians miss this):

Before I explain, notice that the New Covenant was promised not only the the Jews (i.e the house of Judah) but also to the house of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31).

The Rabbis understand that from the days following the reign of king Solomon (i.e from the time that Israel became split into two kingdoms and for the rest of the Old Testament until its close), the prohecies of the Old Testament are sometimes talking only about the house of Israel (collectively a.k.a "Ephraim" in scripture, which were the ten Northen tribes of Israel),

and sometimes only about the house of Judah, and sometimes about both the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Also, in the Old Testament prophetic books, the name "Israel" is sometimes speaking about both the house of Israel and the house of Judah, but sometimes only about the northern kingdom, i.e. the house of Israel, which is also often collectively called "Ephraim" in Biblical prophecy.

If you fail to understand the difference, you will not be able to distinguish (from the historic context of the prophetic passage of the scripture you are reading) which part of Israel is being spoken to. As a consequence, the full meaning will either remain completely lost to you, or you will remain partially blinded (Romans 11:25).

This is referring to the northen part of Israel, i.e the house of Israel/Ephraim:

Isiah 7
7 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty-five years Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people.
9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If you will not believe, surely you shall not be established.

Hosea 1-11a
8 And when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son.
9 And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you.
10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
11 Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head.

(The rest of the sentence in the last verse is a repeat of what was already said before regarding Israel being broken and its kingdom coming to an end in the Valley of Jezreel, and the fact that the ten northern tribes would go into exile).

If you fail to distinguish in every prophetic book which part of Israel is being spoken aboiut, you will be lost.

The good news is the Church will be translated, given new eternal bodies. We will be taken out of this Great Tribulation before it ends, before the wrath of God comes in full.

Bear in mind:-

1. That Israel experienced tribulation under the hand of Pharaoh (who is a type of the beast), and Pharaoh's kingdom experienced the plagues; and

2. That the New Testament makes a very clear distinction between the words "tribulation" and "wrath", and the seven bowls of wrath are also called the seven last plagues in the Revelation.

Tribulation refers to the experience of (any) people - believers and unbelievers, Jews and Gentiles - and tribulation is not always experienced as a result of God's wrath coming upon those people:

For example, the tribulation Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, but the tribulation that the Jews experienced under the hand of Rome in A.D 70 was a result of God's wrath coming upon that generation. Luke 21:22-23 calls it vengeance, distress and wrath coming upon them.

3. Out of all the New Testament verses referring to tribulation, affliction, etc, only two of them (Romans 2:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6) are not in the context of tribulation experienced by, or to be experienced by Christians. All the others are talking about tribulation as the experience of Christans (Luke 21:22-23 does not call the period it's talking about "tribulation", but "wrath")

4. There are only three times in the New Testament that the tribulation being spoken of is so intense as to be called in the Greek megas (great) thlipsis (tribulation), and two of them are beyond dispute talking about great a tribulation to be experienced by the saints (Revelation 2:22 and Revelation 7:14).

The only other time "great" tribulation is mentioned in the New Testament is in Matthew 24:21, but verse 9 of the same passage is talking about the tribulation of those who believe in Jesus.

Just as your understanding of scripture will remain partly true and partly faulty if you fail to distinguish between the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the prophetic books, so it will remain partly true and partly faulty if you fail to distinguish between the Biblical meanings of the words "tribulation" and "wrath". The Christians will experience great tribulation under the hand of the beast, and for all we know (at least some of) the Jews who do not believe in Jesus will either help the beast, or be secretly gleeful when they see it. (But forget the "for all we know" part and what follows it, because it's not written). However, what is also not written is a pre-tribulation rapture of the saints (it's a pre-wrath resurrection followed immediately by a rapture, not a pre-"tribulation" rapture).

 

[Zao is life]

You can.keep ignoring the rest of the passage all you want. I prefer truth over sectarian bias.

It unequivocally says ALL ISRAEL alive to see the deliver come out of Zion, will be saved FOR He, the deliverer, aka Jesus, shall turn AWAY unrighteousness FROM JACOB, aka unbelieving Israel.

Your selective reading bias is duly noted.

Rom 11:26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

All means all.

"All Israel" refers to the elect from among both the house of Israel and the house of Judah (i.e Gentiles and Jews who are elect through faith in Messiah). It refers to those who are called "the sons of the living God" through faith in Jesus - Jews and Gentiles alike.

The condition is: "And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:23)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.

Where did Israel get started? God changed Jacob's name to Israel and his twelve sons generate into the twelve tribes and then into millions. That is where God's church began. Even Joseph's dream forecast who Israle was composed of - (sun, moon and 11 stars, not including himself - which is symbolic for Israel. The woman clothes with the sun and the moon at her feet and a garland of twelve stars around her head is also symbolic for Israel (Rev. 12.1)
We see the child (Jesus) also coming from this line.
Christ came and grafted the Gentiles into that Vine, a spiritual body. But it is clear that God has preserved that blood line as seen in Rev. 7 & 14. (All 12 tribes) And so Israel will be grafted in soon.

That the New Testament makes a very clear distinction between the words "tribulation" and "wrath", and the seven bowls of wrath are also called the seven last plagues in the Revelation.

I certainly agree that the wrath of God comes in the Seven Bowls. I am a Mid-Trib Pre-Millennialist. I believe the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet, when the resurrection occurs. We are translated and taken out - therefore not subject to wrath.
So yes, we will go through part of the Great Tribulation. I would include His wrath in the 3 1/2 years. Maybe it is not half way but towards the end? It could be His wrath lasts 40 days? Nevertheless wrath is still tribulation, just not ours.
Btw, I would prefer to not experience any of it and adopt the Pre-trib. view, but I can't. But this OP is not about that, that is another thread.

 

[Truth7t7]

Where did Israel get started?

But it is clear that God has preserved that blood line as seen in Rev. 7 & 14. (All 12 tribes) And so Israel will be grafted in soon.


I certainly agree that the wrath of God comes in the Seven Bowls. I am a Mid-Trib Pre-Millennialist. I believe the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet, when the resurrection occurs. We are translated and taken out - therefore not subject to wrath.
So yes, we will go through part of the Great Tribulation. I would include His wrath in the 3 1/2 years. Maybe it is not half way but towards the end? It could be His wrath lasts 40 days? Nevertheless wrath is still tribulation, just not ours.
Btw, I would prefer to not experience any of it and adopt the Pre-trib. view, but I can't. But this OP is not about that, that is another thread.

Israel The Church, The 12 Tribes That Are Scattered Abroad

Ron dispensationalism is a false teaching in (Dual Covenant Theology) in two peoples of God, (Church/Israel)

Ron there is "One" people of God that is his Church, and his promise is to the "Remnant Jew" alone, that will be saved and added to the Church, the Israel of God, dont be deceived

When the last name is added to the book of life, then all Israel will be saved, based upon "Faith" in the finished work on Calvary, not ethnic heritage, race, or "Blood Line"

If your 50% Jewish do you receive 50% salvation "Smiles"

James 1:1-4KJV
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

 

[Truth7t7]

Okay let's do Romans 11

Romans 11:7 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"

Israel is not the "election", for the "election" is within all races. They are the ones that made a stand in the first earth age. The "election" are the ones that have the eyes to see and the ears to hear and understand God's Word, while the rest were blinded. Those other's minds and hearts were hardened to the Scriptures, and the Word of God became foolishness to them. Yet, these elect are those "set aside ones" from Romans eight. They are the ones that were not deceived by Satan in the first earth age, nor will they be deceived in this earth age. In other Words these elect are the proven tested children of God. These elect are the ones that God can intercede in their lives, even without their asking Him for the help.

If you not in Christ you are NOT of Israel, period

I Agree

Another look at Roman's 11 below

Only those who God "Foreknew" that is the "Remnant Elect Jew" that will be called and chosen by Gods foreknowledge, just as all believers have been called, chosen, and added to the Church, the Israel of God

Romans 11:1-5KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[Zao is life]

Christ came and grafted the Gentiles into that Vine.

Paul said only that Gentiles who believe in Jesus become grafted into the olive tree among the remnant of the natural seed who believe in Messiah (and of all the Gentiles in the world, it's only a remnant who believe).

Just as in Romans 11, in Romans 9 Paul included Gentiles who believe in Christ in the fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy which refers only to the house of Israel (which had been broken off circa 725 BC), but which God (at the time) promised would yet receive mercy and be called "sons of the living God".

In Romans 11 Paul tells us that there is a condition to the natural seed being grafted in again, i.e IF they repent of their unbelief.

The rest of the natural seed are not part of Israel, any more than any Gentile who rejects Christ, is part of Israel.

The 144,000 represent ALL Israel, and it is is the same "ALL Israel" that Paul is talking about in Romans 11, i.e believing Gentiles who are represented in the 10 tribes which had been cut off in 725 BC (but had once again received mercy so as to be called "the sons of the living God" after Jesus had died for our sins and risen again,).

That's 10 tribes x 12,000 = 120,000' + another 24,000 from the two tribes of Judah (Judah and Benjamin) = 144,000.

And it's a symbolic number, as can be seen by the multitudes John saw in Revelation 7:9, who are spiritually "Ephraim" (who, though his brother Manesseh was mentioned in the 144,00 where Manaesseh was put in the place of Dan, was not mentioned until verse 9).

The vine has absolutely nothing to do with a blood-line anymore. The blood-line makes no difference to God. He is NO respecter of persons,

and Jesus told the Jews who were rejecting Him that if they were Abraham's children, they would do the works of Abraham (instead, Jesus said, many of the blood-line are of their father the devil, though they were claiming, by saying they were Abraham's children, to be God's chosen nation). The same thing goes for Gentiles who reject Christ. They are of their father, the devil.

You may be a respector of persons when it comes to the part of the blood-line that is unbelieving and not part of Israel, but your Savior is not.

I certainly agree that the wrath of God comes in the Seven Bowls. I am a Mid-Trib Pre-Millennialist. I believe the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet, when the resurrection occurs. We are translated and taken out - therefore not subject to wrath.
So yes, we will go through part of the Great Tribulation. I would include His wrath in the 3 1/2 years. Maybe it is not half way but towards the end? It could be His wrath lasts 40 days? Nevertheless wrath is still tribulation, just not ours.
Btw, I would prefer to not experience any of it and adopt the Pre-trib. view, but I can't. But this OP is not about that, that is another thread.

That's good, because it means that you understand that unlike the word wrath, tribulation is merely a word describing something which is the experience of peoples and nations at various points in history, whether Christians, non-Christians, Jews or Gentiles; and in all save two New Testament verses where it appears, the word tribulation is used only to describe the experience of Christians.

 

[Zao is life]

I Agree

Another look at Roman's 11 below

Only those who God "Foreknew" that is the "Remnant Elect Jew" that will be called and chosen by Gods foreknowledge, just as all believers have been called, chosen, and added to the Church, the Israel of God

Romans 11:1-5KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Ever considered that the ALL Israel that are mentioned in Romans 11 (who are the believing remnant from among the house of Judah + the believing remnant from among the nations), is the same ALL Israel listed in Revelation 7:1-9 (don't leave out verse 9)?

Ever considered that just as in Romans 11 Paul says believing Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree among the believing remnant of the genetic descendants, so in Romans 9 Paul includes the Gentiles in the fulfillment of a prophecy in Hosea which refers to the house of Israel?

I put it to you that spiritually the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are "Ephraim" or "the house of Israel" (as seen in the ten tribes of Revelation 7 who had been broken off circa 725 BC, but whom Paul mentions in Romans 9:24-26.

Verse 9 of Revelation 7 says it all. Revelation 7 is ALL Israel, and Romans 11:25-26 is ALL Israel, and ALL Israel consists only of Gentiles who believe in Jesus + Jews who believe in Jesus - and no one else (no Jews who do not believe, and no Gentiles who do not believe).

The 144,00 are those who are sealed with the seal of God. No one else is sealed. Revelation 13:8 tells us that it is only the 144,000 who do not worship the beast - those who have the seal of God.

 

[Truth7t7]

The 144,00 are those who are sealed with the seal of God. No one else is sealed. Revelation 13:8 tells us that it is only the 144,000 who do not worship the beast - those who have the seal of God.

I Strongly Disagree

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Paul said only that Gentiles who believe in Jesus become grafted into the olive tree among the remnant of the natural seed who believe in Messiah (and of all the Gentiles in the world, it's only a remnant who believe).

Right, I meant to say believing Gentiles - it was inferred. Of course not all Gentiles were grafted in - then there would be no purpose for a judgment/ Great Tribulation.

IF they repent of their unbelief

True

The 144,000 represent ALL Israel, and it is is the same "ALL Israel" that Paul is talking about in Romans 11, i.e believing Gentiles who are represented in the 10 tribes which had been cut off in 725 BC (but had once again received mercy so as to be called "the sons of the living God" after Jesus had died for our sins and risen again,)

Have to disagree with this. All the remnant Israel, may include some 5 million Jews, which is much more than 144k. Plus they 144k are male virgins who have not defiled themselves with women.

The vine has absolutely nothing to do with a blood-line anymore. The blood-line makes no difference to God. He is NO respecter of persons,

The vine is spiritual. But the distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles in Rom. 11 speaks if bloodlines. Rev. 7 &14 speaks if bloodlines by name of the tribe. There is nothing symbolic when specific names are used. Like in rhe syory about Lazarus and the Rich man in Hades. Abraham is speaking to the Rich man. That is not an allegory or a parable. Details are specific - nothing abstract or symbolic in that story.
Bloodline made a difference from Abraham to Christ. So then it stopped there, after it served it's purpose?

So what is your position? Amillennial, Pre-millennial, Post-Millennial?