Jesus Is God: Part 1

[Hidden In Him]

All the OT chosen nation who lived by faith were non-trinitarian. Christ's sacrifice was imputed to all of them. I real don't think many grasped the concept of a Triune God in the first century and apparently many still don't. Jesus did not regard this concept ( of beingbequal with God) as something man would readily grasp. Non-Trinitarians believe that Jesus was sent by the Father, whom He said was "My God and your God", that He died for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures. They follow and obey Him. Isn't that enough?

I thought believing in Jesus was the requirement of salvation, that is of course the faith of a Christian. The OT saints had faith in the coming Messiah as well but it was not clear that God would become man and dwell among us...

Good point, Ronald.

Much like the fact that the gospel would be preached to the Gentiles, or that the Messiah would pay the price for man's sins on a cross, I think the truths like the Trinity and the Incarnation were all part of the progressive revelation of God, and those in each generation who are given more were thus made responsible for more. As Paul said, some of the things they were teaching were a mystery hidden in God until then, but were now being revealed to the church, and then through the church (Colossians 1:26).

Therefore, to reject the idea of a crucified Messiah during OT times would have been forgivable, but not in the New.

 

[Wrangler]

THIS is a straw man argument

Friend, I made no argument. Perhaps you do not even understand what a philosophical debate is or involves.

All I did was to point out what the verse does NOT say.

I created a thread some time ago that differentiated between verses that merely ‘support’ a doctrine one has before reading Scrupture with verses that explicitly teach a particular doctrine. Many confuse the 2.

 

[Abaxvahl]

All the OT chosen nation who lived by faith were non-trinitarian. Christ's sacrifice was imputed to all of them. I real don't think many grasped the concept of a Triune God in the first century and apparently many still don't. Jesus did not regard this concept ( of beingbequal with God) as something man would readily grasp. Non-Trinitarians believe that Jesus was sent by the Father, whom He said was "My God and your God", that He died for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures. They follow and obey Him. Isn't that enough?

I thought believing in Jesus was the requirement of salvation, that is of course the faith of a Christian. The OT saints had faith in the coming Messiah as well but it was not clear that God would become man and dwell aoung us. They thought He would become King and sit on David's throne as LORD.
However, it is likely they do not worship, honor and regard Him equally as they do the Father.
There are other problems with this belief system, but I do not think it nullifies their faith/salvation.

Not grasping a concept, not having something yet revealed to you, and denying God's revelation are different things. Moreover I do not agree that all did not grasp it then. Concerning Genesis 18:1-3 St. Augustine says: "Do you see that Abraham Three but bows down to One... Having beheld Three, he understood the mystery of the Trinity, and having bowed down to One, he confessed One God in Three Persons."

Moreover, Jesus explicitly taught this to His disciples and expected them to hold it, which they did in fact do. Of His own teachings He thanks the Father saying: "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to young children. Yes, Father, for this was pleasing before you." The disciples being the "little ones" here. Man of his own power can not grasp this but God can reveal it to man, and did. To those who He has "opened the mind to understand" it is quite simple, which is why the Apostolic Faith is even given to and taught to children, it is not beyond them.

Believing into Jesus is certainly necessary and the requirement of salvation but when you fundamentally deny who a person is how can you be said to believe in them? If I tell you I am a human and you tell me I am a dog (like as Jesus tells the world He is truly God and eternal and the non-Trinitarians say He's just a creature made from nothing just like they are, which is an INFINITE denial of who He is: for the gap between God and creation is infinite, the mind can not even fathom the distance between us and God) how can you say that you trust in me or believe into me or even know me?

There is only one possible way, and this is how some non-Trinitarians (and also pagans, fleshly Jews, etc) have been saved: honest ignorance which is not a willful ignorance.

But notice what this does: you can not say that this person who is honestly ignorant of Abaxvahl's humanity is a believer (or confessor) of my true humanity and me not being a dog. It puts them outside of the realm of those who believe that, just like non-Trinitarians, the subset of them who are honestly in ignorance.

This does not mean, as I just said, they can not be saved, but it does mean that they can not be truly said to be in the camp of those who confess what Jesus said He was, or as I say "doctrinally Christian." Someone who is doctrinally Christian, that is holds and believes in the Christian teaching (which is nothing other than what Christ taught), can be called that. Someone who doesn't can not be called that it would be a lie, that is why I say they are not Christian. They deny either out of malice or an honest ignorance what Jesus revealed about Himself, meaning they do not even really know Jesus as they deny His fundamental identity which He spoke of Himself (that is being the Second Person of the Trinity, the natural Son of God).

Their salvation is in the Lord's hands, we can't judge souls, but we can judge positions, and their position is not doctrinally Christian, and so it may be rightly said that they are not Christian, just as someone who holds to Buddhism is not doctrinally Christian, or someone who holds to Islam's teachings is not doctrinally Christian, or an atheist isn't, even though it be possible any of these people can be saved.

 

[MatthewG]

Not grasping a concept, not having something yet revealed to you, and denying God's revelation are different things. Moreover I do not agree that all did not grasp it then. Concerning Genesis 18:1-3 St. Augustine says: "Do you see that Abraham Three but bows down to One... Having beheld Three, he understood the mystery of the Trinity, and having bowed down to One, he confessed One God in Three Persons."

Moreover, Jesus explicitly taught this to His disciples and expected them to hold it, which they did in fact do. Of His own teachings He thanks the Father saying: "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to young children. Yes, Father, for this was pleasing before you." The disciples being the "little ones" here. Man of his own power can not grasp this but God can reveal it to man, and did. To those who He has "opened the mind to understand" it is quite simple, which is why the Apostolic Faith is even given to and taught to children, it is not beyond them.

Believing into Jesus is certainly necessary and the requirement of salvation but when you fundamentally deny who a person is how can you be said to believe in them? If I tell you I am a human and you tell me I am a dog (like as Jesus tells the world He is truly God and eternal and the non-Trinitarians say He's just a creature made from nothing just like they are, which is an INFINITE denial of who He is: for the gap between God and creation is infinite, the mind can not even fathom the distance between us and God) how can you say that you trust in me or believe into me or even know me?

There is only one possible way, and this is how some non-Trinitarians (and also pagans, fleshly Jews, etc) have been saved: honest ignorance which is not a willful ignorance.

But notice what this does: you can not say that this person who is honestly ignorant of Abaxvahl's humanity is a believer (or confessor) of my true humanity and me not being a dog. It puts them outside of the realm of those who believe that, just like non-Trinitarians, the subset of them who are honestly in ignorance.

This does not mean, as I just said, they can not be saved, but it does mean that they can not be truly said to be in the camp of those who confess what Jesus said He was, or as I say "doctrinally Christian." Someone who is doctrinally Christian, that is holds and believes in the Christian teaching (which is nothing other than what Christ taught), can be called that. Someone who doesn't can not be called that it would be a lie, that is why I say they are not Christian. They deny either out of malice or an honest ignorance what Jesus revealed about Himself, meaning they do not even really know Jesus as they deny His fundamental identity which He spoke of Himself (that is being the Second Person of the Trinity, the natural Son of God).

Their salvation is in the Lord's hands, we can't judge souls, but we can judge positions, and their position is not doctrinally Christian, and so it may be rightly said that they are not Christian, just as someone who holds to Buddhism is not doctrinally Christian, or someone who holds to Islam's teachings is not doctrinally Christian, or an atheist isn't, even though it be possible any of these people can be saved.

Yay for Gods grace!

 

[MatthewG]

The biggest thing for me is just the blanketed statement ‘Jesus is God’ when all throughout scripture Jesus is known as the Lord. Then you have people who come a long and tell you that if you don’t claim Jesus is God you are not a Christian. To become a judge or a ‘police’ on someone who may not understand the trinity it causes a problem with being able to have love.

To me the Father, The Son, And Holy Spirit; God, the Word of God and the Spirit of God. Exist and are all real believing in faith in the things that are not seen physically.

Faith. Belief; trusting; looking towards Jesus being reborn; having love which comes with faith; if you walk by the spirit.

Your intellectual knowledge doesn’t make a person better than the next.

No matter though in this world their are those who group up with like-minded believers and some traveler comes along might see things differently then they who think the same way Judge the one who is different.

Do believe that Jesus is now know as the Lord God Almighty; and while Jesus walked around on Earth; the logos of God was in the flesh that was named Jesus, and the Spirit of God was with the Logos of God and God through the Logos of God through the flesh by the spirit healed many people.

 

[amadeus]

HELLO,

I am certain you are a Christian, a person with faith in Christ. What I am curious about is your understanding of who the Holy Spirit is, since you claim not to be a Trinitarian?

I am not sure that I qualify to speak for non-Trinitarians. I was called out of my last Oneness church in 1987. From 1987 until 2018 I was in a non-denominational assembly which was not Trinitarian or Oneness as I have heard those those two points or view or ways of believing described on this or most other Christian forums.

I used to say to people that God is a Spirit and God is Holy. This is a description in the Bible of the One most, if not all, would call the Father. Is not the Father a Holy Spirit?

I haven't said it much lately, but it still fits better the some of the shoes people have adjusted to fit their own feet.

Quite a few years ago my wife had to have surgery on one foot. They implanted a metal rod in that foot which fixed the problem, but made buying a pair of shoes a problematic because her two feet were two different sizes. Rather than buying two pairs of shoes and wasting two shoes, we took one shoe of a single new pair to a local cobbler who adjusted for a small fee one shoe to correctly fit her odd foot. Discrepancies fixed?

I wonder if the problem people have with Trinity or Not is similar to that? The only cobbler these days who could do this job would be God Himself, I believe.

Do you think He is the Father's Spirit? Jesus said, the Father will send you "another Helper", a Comforter, Who will live in you and teach you all things I have taught you. Did He mean He would send Himself? I guess with this view, the other Helper has to be the FATHER as the Father was in Christ. We are in Christ. So that would mean there is ONE common Spirit of GOD, who descended on JESUS and then on the rest of us, including those of the OT. One God, the Father, whose Spirit transcends all.

Where is the Holy Spirit in the greetings penned by Paul and the other NT writers? They greet the Father and the Son but... ?

Lots of questions and for many people I guess their answer
their answer is[are] to accept by faith one thing or the other. Where did they get the idea that the Trinity was the answer? The Bible? God? The Holy Spirit? Some preacher or teacher?

Ha? You ask me and I might tell you what I believe but I learned a long time ago to not presume definitely that what I believe is necessarily the fact of the matter. We are to live for God by faith rather than by knowledge. But... will not knowledge arrive eventually by or through or at the finish of our faith? [See Heb. 12:2]

My priest or minister or prophet or evangelist or teacher or pastor or teacher may have told me what the facts were... or they may have expressed them as simply being their personal beliefs.

In some denominations or churches they are more absolute in their statements. Did their absolute statements come from God? How would I know that? If I do not know that why should I confess it? Should I simply presume their beliefs on myself? Is that really what God wants from us?

If they are or have been often anointed by the Holy Spirit, must I or should I follow them on this to snuff out my own doubts? Is it as simple as that? Find a leader among men and follow him.

I believe you know as I do the potential problem with doing that. God speaks through people like yourself or like me or someone else. How do we know when it is God alone speaking rather something of our own as a result of a human being studying and applying human logic?

That's a loaded question. There's more after that. I don't mean to put you on the hot seat, I just am curious how non-trinitarians view the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the One who guides us into the Truth. Do we need to know if that is the Father, or a power directed by the Father, or some kind of a third part of the Trinity of God? Does a person have to be a theologian with all of the right answers in order to follow Christ and to be ultimately saved?

It seems to me that the well versed theologians may often be among those so rich in their own spirits that they are scarcely [or not at all] able to make it through the strait and narrow gate.

People need to go back to what God inspired Solomon to write and then ask God to give them understandings of those things which would apply to their own situations.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The "reapers" apparently will know which are tares and which are wheat and be able to work accordingly. I do not believe that anyone on this forum has already been qualified and designated as a "reaper"!

I've been informed that I don't know what a philosophical debate is, so I think I'll just take your cue and resort to "grim reaper" memes instead, LoL.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Here's another one, LoL.

 

[Nancy]

Greetings all.

I have a day or two off, and I was browsing the site and noticed we still have a lot of non-Trinitarians posting. So after looking into a few things I thought I would post something on the issue. As God wills, I will post additional parts to this series, but for now let me start with a passage where I think the non-Trinitarian argument isn't well supported.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

First the verse: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. John 17:5)

Now, quoting from Biblical Unitarian, here is their argument concerning this verse:

1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it would come into manifestation.

2. Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began, and would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth...
____________________
The problem with this argument is that Jesus in no uncertain terms asks to be clothed with the glory He had with the Father before the world began, not some glory that was "in the mind of God" before the world began. This is adding to the text to support a doctrinal bias.

I agree that a person's doctrines should not be formed out of doctrinal bias, as the author himself admitted when he stated, "It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God." But he is committing the very sin he is accusing others of. The word ought to be read for what it says, not what it has to be manipulated into saying in order to suit someone's preconceived notions.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

Hello brother! You have been missed.
Totally good points. Simple and crystal clear! Key words "...He had..."
Nice to see you on here and I love the Avatar as well.

 

[MatthewG]

@Hidden In Him



My friend:

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello brother! You have been missed.
Totally good points. Simple and crystal clear! Key words "...He had..."
Nice to see you on here and I love the Avatar as well.

Thank you, Nancy. I think the philosophical debate (if there was one) has already come and gone, or never really started, but just as well cuz I should probably be moving on.

But yeah, always nice to talk to old friends again. God bless, and as always, hold down the fort!

 

[amadeus]

I've been informed that I don't know what a philosophical debate is, so I think I'll just take your cue and resort to "grim reaper" memes instead, LoL.

A "philosophical debate"? Do you suppose we will have to engage in one and win it before we will be admitted entrance to 3rd Heaven with God? Perhaps I should start by looking up the definition of "philosophy". Would that perhaps help?

Then again, do you think there will be any questions for debate about all of those strange looking creatures shown in your posts #47 & #48? Should we all be watching some of todays TV programs and movies to educate ourselves properly? They seem to be very popular even among church going people! Hmmm?

 

[Truman]

Yahweh-Elohim...early name of God.
Chest with 2 drawers.
Chest with drawers within - Yahweh
Chest with drawers extending out - Elohim...drawers are Yeshua and Ruach.
Both one and three!

Master of the Universe!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Augustine says: "Do you see that Abraham Three but bows down to One... Having beheld Three, he understood the mystery of the Trinity, and having bowed down to One, he confessed One God in Three Persons."

I am not sure Augustine interpreted that passage correctly. It was a Christophany. I think the pre-incarnate Jesus (Jehovah/Yaweh) appeared with two angels, not the Trinity.

Believing into Jesus is certainly necessary and the requirement of salvation but when you fundamentally deny who a person is how can you be said to believe in them?

You and I believed and we were infants in the faith, knowing very little about the depths of God. My daughter at ten received the Lord and believed on a basic level of understanding. Those whonare not so intelligent and/or mentally challenged can and do believe on a basic level. Would you dare disqualify them as Christians? We all _ in fact _ KNOW IN PART. So don't put all these doctrinaire requirements on the backs of His sheep.

non-Trinitarians say He's just a creature made from nothing just like they are, which is an INFINITE denial of who He is: for the gap between God and creation is infinite, the mind can not even fathom the distance between us and God) how can you say that you trust in me or beli

Yes, that is a problem. We son't know their hearts - by their fruit you will know them. Can we really know people online?

There is only one possible way, and this is how some non-Trinitarians (and also pagans, fleshly Jews, etc) have been saved: honest ignorance which is not a willful ignorance

Yes. We were all honestly ignorant until He lifted the veil, introduced Himself. The begginning of knowledge and wisdom is the fear of the LORD.

This does not mean, as I just said, they can not be saved, but it does mean that they can not be truly said to be in the camp of those who confess what Jesus said He was, or as I say "doctrinally Christian."

Oh yes, the doctrinaire elite camp. Let me know where that is, so I can avoid it. It does'nt sound like it's filled with very humble saints. I think Jesus rebuked the chuech of Ephesus for their forgetting their first love and brotherly love. They had a cold doctrinaire attitude. They were the kind that hit people over the head with their doctrines.

 

[amadeus]

Hello, Matthew.

At issue here actually is that there has been a great deal of contending for the idea that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God, hence the title of the thread. I thought it was concerning so I decided to post, seeing as how I had a little free time on my hands anyway. As for the contention that He IS God yet maybe not in the exact same sense as is taught in Trinitarian doctrine wouldn't concern me as much. It's more about slandering the Divinity of Christ.

God bless, and good to see you still around.
- H

Just a little monkey wrench into the machinery here! What is God that Jesus would or would not be God?

I believe that Jesus is God, but just what is God that we may believe that he is while other sons of God are not Gods?

If Jesus is equal to the Father and there is no Holy Spirit as a separate thing [entity, part, or whatever] from the Father then we have perhaps a Duality? If Jesus is less than the Father, but is nonetheless God, then would he be a lesser God?

I am not intending to confuse anyone but rather to hopefully bring some to a realization that what we believe in this respect is and must be by faith?

Is my faith greater or more correct than your faith? Why did Paul write these words?

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

Is our faith on the increase? When will it move on the knowledge...?

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith..." Heb 12:2

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

am not sure that I qualify to speak for non-Trinitarians.

You qualify to speak for your own beliefs.

I used to say to people that God is a Spirit and God is Holy. This is a description in the Bible of the One most, if not all, would call the Father. Is not the Father a Holy Spirit?

The Father is Spirit and Holy. So then when Jesus said, the Father will send you "another Helper", to you, that means He sent Himself?

Where is the Holy Spirit in the greetings penned by Paul and the other NT writers? They greet the Father and the Son but... ?

Living inside him. He is actually the one speaking through Paul. Remember, Christ said, "He will not speak on His own; He will knly speak what He hears and He will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to Me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you." John 16:13
So, is Jesus referring to the Father ... Who "will not speak on his own only what he hears"?

We are to live for God by faith rather than by knowledge.

Faith in the knowledge of Christ and His Word. Faith is the certainty of things hoped for and unseen. What things? You have to know in a basic way who He is and what He promises. Just saying, knowledge is a component of faith.

In some denominations or churches they are more absolute in their statements. Did their absolute statements come from God? How would I know that? If I do not know that why should I confess it? Should I simply presume their beliefs on myself? Is that really what God wants from us?

Test what everyone says with scripture.

The Holy Spirit is the One who guides us into the Truth. Do we need to know if that is the Father, or a power directed by the Father, or some kind of a third part of the Trinity of God? Does a person have to be a theologian with all of the right answers in order to follow Christ and to be ultimately saved?

.
No, but if you ask, the Holy Spirit will help you with yours needs.

You are playing it safe. I like your style, it's not mine but it's acceptable. You don't like confrontation or to rock the boat, you like to be neutral - at least on this topic.

 

[Enoch111]

Is the best answer to cast out anyone that we believe is of the devil or is not of God or anyone who fails to line up with our own beliefs or doctrines?

The issue of "casting out" does not arise. However errors can and should be exposed. At the same time, there are some Christians forums which will not allow attacks on the deity of Christ or on the Trinity. These are fundamental Christian doctrines.

 

[amadeus]

You qualify to speak for your own beliefs.

Certainly! Even if some of them need to be corrected.

The Father is Spirit and Holy. So then when Jesus said, the Father will send you "another Helper", to you, that means He sent Himself?

What I did not say is that I lean toward a Duality. Your words are presuming like many do that because I am not a Trinitarian, I must fit into someone's box. I agree with many individuals on some things, but I have never to my knowledge ever agreed on every detail with another believer. The Duality includes the Father and His Son. His Son, Jesus, effectively a lesser God/god [Where does the scripture say that God cannot make a God or god?] is the Reality of what is depicted in the type in Joseph and his connection to Pharaoh, Pharaoh being the type of the Father:

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt." Gen 41:40-4

These are my beliefs, not my ATs [Absolute Truths].

Someone may read what I have written and decide to tear my "theology" down. They cannot, I believe, do it more than I have myself. This is why I strive daily to return to that lowest room holding onto nothing but bare bones, and if need be, not even that... allowing God to increase or correct me as He will when He will.

Living inside him. He is actually the one speaking through Paul. Remember, Christ said, "He will not speak on His own; He will knly speak what He hears and He will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to Me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you." John 16:13
So, is Jesus referring to the Father ... Who "will not speak on his own only what he hears"?

That is an explanation which may explain it if and when it needs to be explained by you. How well do I need to understand these things in order to serve and love God first? I rarely study such things per se as once I may have done long ago. I read my three Bibles in a sequence 7 days a week to include all of it as much as possible in as many ways as possible continuously allowing God to insert into me this or that, or to correct in me this or that in His time.

Some have called it a wishy washy road I am on, but it really is not. When some one asks the right questions I can usually present my case from the scripture on a given point if I have considered it at all before, but sometimes still my old man is involved. How to eliminate that? God is able! It is still day!

Faith in the knowledge of Christ and His Word. Faith is the certainty of things hoped for and unseen. What things? You have to know in a basic way who He is and what He promises. Just saying, knowledge is a component of faith.

I believe that believers in God have some things by faith and some by knowledge, but they are unable to draw a line between them. They do not know which is which. God always knows, so then to speak always only Truth requires God's help. This is a function of the Holy Spirit in us. If a person is routinely quenching the Holy Spirit, then his own old man spirit is providing input which results in errors, contradictions and conflicts among believers. God can sort it all out.

Then of course there is charity or love:

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity/love, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2

As you say knowledge is involved, but not as much as many people seem to believe or not as they believe.

Test what everyone says with scripture.

Someone quenching the Spirit even part of the time will not always have good test results. The written scriptures not quickened within us are dead words. They are like Jesus dead body on the cross before the Resurrection!

No, but if you ask, the Holy Spirit will help you with yours needs.

Yes, our needs, rather than our wants, unless our wants are already equal to what God knows are our needs!

You are playing it safe. I like your style, it's not mine but it's acceptable. You don't like confrontation or to rock the boat, you like to be neutral - at least on this topic.

I see no point in confrontation simply because I believe I am right and I believe someone else is wrong. God has an overall plan, in which we are included, be it working in or as the Right hand or the Left hand of God. Ultimately He leaves the choices up to us. Sometimes we have what the 'old man' of us would consider hard choices to make. Jesus gave us an example here:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Are we ready to drink our cup... even if it should be scourging with a whip and a physical crucifixion? In our physical anguish we might ask that the cup be removed, but if it really is the Father's will?

There really is a time to speak and a time to remain silent [Ecc 3:7]. God always knows what time it is. Are we in touch with Him always so that we also know each time the question arises for us?

 

[amadeus]

The issue of "casting out" does not arise. However errors can and should be exposed. At the same time, there are some Christians forums which will not allow attacks on the deity of Christ or on the Trinity. These are fundamental Christian doctrines.

By fundamental doctrines, you mean ATs [Absolute Truths] and on that I must disagree.

 

[Helen]

Non-Trinitarians aren't even Christians so it is no wonder they do such things to the text.

.

I am not one….but I take objection to this comment.

We each believe what we believe that God has spoken and shown us.

God alone with show us at the end on who's side truth lands.

you statement would be more palatable if you had prefaced it with “ I believe….”