Thus endeth this debate!
2 Tim 4:3 you have found your verse
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Thus endeth this debate!
That is the point I’m making all our faith and morals are handed by Christ to his apostlesThis statement is also illogical since Jude was speaking in the past tense, not the future tense. Jude was making no claim concerning traditions that would arise after he wrote his letter. Even Paul's assertion about the "one faith" speaks about a faith that was complete during the time of his letter.
Good grief, when did I claim anything close to that?
Jesus established a church. The apostles were the foundation, Jesus the Rock of Truth it was built against as the chief Cornerstone. The apostles and disciples of that first church established as missionaries after Pentecost spread the gospel to all the world. Jerusalem was the first center. Then other cities came into prominence. Antioch. Pella. Alexandria. Rome. Istanbul and the various cities around Asia minor. From these cities the gospel spread quickly and widely throughout the world.
Various leaders and pastors were anointed to care for the churches in those areas. The bishops. Not until the 3rd and 4th centuries did the bishop of Rome begin to claim authority over those other bishops. Until then, all the churches were independent and acted and moved as the holy Spirit led. They continued to minister to their kettle, and send out missionaries further and further until the gospel teaches place such as China and Japan and Persia and Afghanistan and all places in between. This all before the 12th century, and none of them has any connection to Rome.
The same in the other direction. The gospel had reached throughout the empire as far as Britain by the end of the second century... Again without any connection to Rome. The sad fact if history is that as the bishop of Rome sought more and more authority over the churches, he, through the power of the state destroyed those Christian churches if they refused to submit. That is history. And the truth of the gospel survived despite Roman papal interference. It was in those churches where you need to look for true authority that was handed down from the apostles. Not Rome
The sacred deposit of faith is the Bible.That is the point I’m making all our faith and morals are handed by Christ to his apostles
The sacred deposit of faith
The sacred deposit of faith is the Bible.
The sacred deposit of faith is the Bible.
All of Jesus' followers are saints. The RCC has erroneously invented a category unknown to the Bible.don’t say that
saints are not the Bible Jude 1:3
What do you fear Little Birdy?Not your “Bible alone” plus personal judgement chaos and rebellion
Do you not see how Jude 1:3 takes about Apostolic writing, which became the NT?
No one is buying your rationalization of the usurpation of the RCC authority, including ‘succession’ of Apostles!
Do you not see how Jude 1:3 takes about Apostolic writing, which became the NT?
No one is buying your rationalization of the usurpation of the RCC authority, including ‘succession’ of Apostles!
All of Jesus' followers are saints. The RCC has erroneously invented a category unknown to the Bible.
What do you fear Little Birdy?
First of all, personal judgment doesn't necessarily lead to chaos and rebellion. That is fear talking, the kind of fear that has currently brought the world into shadow.
Second of all, relying on personal judgment takes courage. And have you never read that the cowardly will burn in the lake of fire? Revelation 21:8
The Bible is filled with exhortations to "take courage" and so I exhort you to take courage and rely on judgment rather than rules.
All of Jesus' followers are saints. The RCC has erroneously invented a category unknown to the Bible.
What do you fear Little Birdy?
First of all, personal judgment doesn't necessarily lead to chaos and rebellion. That is fear talking, the kind of fear that has currently brought the world into shadow.
Second of all, relying on personal judgment takes courage. And have you never read that the cowardly will burn in the lake of fire? Revelation 21:8
The Bible is filled with exhortations to "take courage" and so I exhort you to take courage and rely on judgment rather than rules.
For a church that is so in favor of hierarchal authority ( not saying it's right or wrong) it astonished me that the church you speak of had it's foundation in history to Roman bishops who gave up Christ as the Lord in favor of secular emperors. Relying on secular armies to enforce church teachings.... Relying on secular armies to to establish the church.... Relying on secular legislative bodies to coerce individuals, and communities into submission to papal authority...fear your Protestant history that shows clearly you cannot have unity of faith without hierarchical authority, it is not a bible study but a covenant, a kingdom
With power and authority in a visible ruler
Christ is king in case you never heard it before and obedience to the king is not a suggestion but absolute requirement
Little Birdy. I can feel your doubt growing.fear your Protestant history that shows clearly you cannot have unity of faith without hierarchical authority, it is not a bible study but a covenant, a kingdom
With power and authority in a visible ruler
Christ is king in case you never heard it before and obedience to the king is not a suggestion but absolute requirement
Little Birdy,please once and for all the Christian rule of faith is the doctrine or teaching of the Apostles by the authority of Christ lead by the HS not the “Bible alone” so IT DOES NOT need to be in the scripture
For a church that is so in favor of hierarchal authority ( not saying it's right or wrong) it astonished me that the church you speak of had it's foundation in history to Roman bishops who gave up Christ as the Lord in favor of secular emperors. Relying on secular armies to enforce church teachings.... Relying on secular armies to to establish the church.... Relying on secular legislative bodies to coerce individuals, and communities into submission to papal authority...
The Bible speaks of religious leaders who trust in worldly rulers as spiritual adulterers. In other words the Catholic Church was founded on adultery.
Little Birdy. I can feel your doubt growing.
What you describe is NOT unity of faith. Faith is not something that can be dictated from on high. Faith must rise from the hearts and minds of believers. You know this don't you? Unity is the natural result of a gathering of believers who all affirm the same truth, and all follow Jesus Christ.
What you follow is a cruel and oppressive tyrannical hierarchy, enforcing rules through intimidation, propaganda and lies. John told us to "come out of her my people" and we did. So can you . . . if you want.
We've had over 1500 years of history to reveal to us all the effects of the union of church and state. And you still claim it's good? Seriously?both the church and the state have lawful authority from God and the separation of church from state will ensure the state is immoral ie. the good ole USA!
The state requires the church to be just and moral
Little Birdy. I can feel your doubt growing.
What you describe is NOT unity of faith. Faith is not something that can be dictated from on high. Faith must rise from the hearts and minds of believers. You know this don't you? Unity is the natural result of a gathering of believers who all affirm the same truth, and all follow Jesus Christ.
What you follow is a cruel and oppressive tyrannical hierarchy, enforcing rules through intimidation, propaganda and lies. John told us to "come out of her my people" and we did. So can you . . . if you want.
Where did Jesus teach it was the church's responsibility to ensure the state in moral?the separation of church from state will ensure the state is immoral i