Is the Word of God only found in scripture?
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That is the point I’m making all our faith and morals are handed by Christ to his apostles
The sacred deposit of faith
peter and his successors only
How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?
How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession?
How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?
also have to explain
Isa 22:21-22
Matt 16:18
Matt 28:19
Jn 20:21-23
Eph 2:20
Matt 23
God always establishes order in the obedience to hierarchical authority!
Matt 23 the successors of Moses had the keys of authority (open and shut) and the power to bind and loose in the seat or chair of Moses (also called a cathedral) and Christ says they MUST be obeyed!
Taken from them matt 21:43 given to Peter matt 16:18 and the apostles Matt 18:18 Jn 20:21-23 eph 2:20
Matthew 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:
Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:
Matt 17:27 Jesus and peter are one
Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:
Isa 2221-22 prime minister called father!
Holding the keys of the kingdom under the king Lk 1:32-33 in the line of david!
Matt 16:18
Christ founded the church on Peter!
And the apostles!
Matt 16:18 eph 2:20 Jn 20:21-23
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
You CANNOT give the keys (jurisdictional authority) to a confession but to a person! Peter
Vs 19 I give unto thee (Peter) thou shalt bind (Peter) thou shalt loose (Peter)
Only the one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors and those members of Christ by faith and baptism United with them, the communion of the saints
Jn 16:10 matt 16:18 18:18 Jn 20:21-23
Jn 10:16
Ephesians 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church
MORTALIUM ANIMOS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
ON RELIGIOUS UNITY
10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: "The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and modestly."[20] The same holy Martyr with good reason marveled exceedingly that anyone could believe that "this unity in the Church which arises from a divine foundation, and which is knit together by heavenly sacraments, could be rent and torn asunder by the force of contrary wills."[21] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24]
11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls? Alas their children left the home of their fathers, but it did not fall to the ground and perish for ever, for it was supported by God. Let them therefore return to their common Father, who, forgetting the insults previously heaped on the Apostolic See, will receive them in the most loving fashion. For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, "the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful"?[25] Let them hear Lactantius crying out: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind."[26]
12. Let, therefore, the separated children draw nigh to the Apostolic See, set up in the City which Peter and Paul, the Princes of the Apostles, consecrated by their blood; to that See, We repeat, which is "the root and womb whence the Church of God springs,"[27] not with the intention and the hope that "the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth"[28] will cast aside the integrity of the faith and tolerate their errors, but, on the contrary, that they themselves submit to its teaching and government. Would that it were Our happy lot to do that which so many of Our predecessors could not, to embrace with fatherly affection those children, whose unhappy separation from Us We now bewail. Would that God our Savior, "Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,"[29] would hear us when We humbly beg that He would deign to recall all who stray to the unity of the Church! In this most important undertaking We ask and wish that others should ask the prayers of Blessed Mary the Virgin, Mother of divine grace, victorious over all heresies and Help of Christians, that She may implore for Us the speedy coming of the much hoped-for day, when all men shall hear the voice of Her divine Son, and shall be "careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."[30]
13. You, Venerable Brethren, understand how much this question is in Our mind, and We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity. While awaiting this event, and as a pledge of Our paternal good will, We impart most lovingly to you, Venerable Brethren, and to your clergy and people, the apostolic benediction.
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
ON RELIGIOUS UNITY
10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: "The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and modestly."[20] The same holy Martyr with good reason marveled exceedingly that anyone could believe that "this unity in the Church which arises from a divine foundation, and which is knit together by heavenly sacraments, could be rent and torn asunder by the force of contrary wills."[21] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24]
11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls? Alas their children left the home of their fathers, but it did not fall to the ground and perish for ever, for it was supported by God. Let them therefore return to their common Father, who, forgetting the insults previously heaped on the Apostolic See, will receive them in the most loving fashion. For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, "the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful"?[25] Let them hear Lactantius crying out: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind."[26]
12. Let, therefore, the separated children draw nigh to the Apostolic See, set up in the City which Peter and Paul, the Princes of the Apostles, consecrated by their blood; to that See, We repeat, which is "the root and womb whence the Church of God springs,"[27] not with the intention and the hope that "the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth"[28] will cast aside the integrity of the faith and tolerate their errors, but, on the contrary, that they themselves submit to its teaching and government. Would that it were Our happy lot to do that which so many of Our predecessors could not, to embrace with fatherly affection those children, whose unhappy separation from Us We now bewail. Would that God our Savior, "Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,"[29] would hear us when We humbly beg that He would deign to recall all who stray to the unity of the Church! In this most important undertaking We ask and wish that others should ask the prayers of Blessed Mary the Virgin, Mother of divine grace, victorious over all heresies and Help of Christians, that She may implore for Us the speedy coming of the much hoped-for day, when all men shall hear the voice of Her divine Son, and shall be "careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."[30]
13. You, Venerable Brethren, understand how much this question is in Our mind, and We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity. While awaiting this event, and as a pledge of Our paternal good will, We impart most lovingly to you, Venerable Brethren, and to your clergy and people, the apostolic benediction.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
don’t say that
saints are not the Bible Jude 1:3
persons
God always establishes “order” in the “obedience” to the hierarchical authority of the fathers!
Not your “Bible alone” plus personal judgement chaos and rebellion
“unity”!!!
unitiy of the faith only comes from the teaching authority of the apostles acts 2;42 did not hold to the “Bible alone” but the doctrine of the apostles
Scripture and tradition have the authority of Christ and guarantee of the HS Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23
matt 16:18 18:18 Jn 20:21 refer to authority in persons
sects and heretics and thier manifold errors are apart from christ and his holy church
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Do you not see how Jude 1:3 takes about Apostolic writing, which became the NT?
No one is buying your rationalization of the usurpation of the RCC authority, including ‘succession’ of Apostles!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
All of Jesus' followers are saints. The RCC has erroneously invented a category unknown to the Bible.
What do you fear Little Birdy?
First of all, personal judgment doesn't necessarily lead to chaos and rebellion. That is fear talking, the kind of fear that has currently brought the world into shadow.
Second of all, relying on personal judgment takes courage. And have you never read that the cowardly will burn in the lake of fire? Revelation 21:8
The Bible is filled with exhortations to "take courage" and so I exhort you to take courage and rely on judgment rather than rules.
please once and for all the Christian rule of faith is the doctrine or teaching of the Apostles by the authority of Christ lead by the HS not the “Bible alone” so IT DOES NOT need to be in the scripture
fear your Protestant history that shows clearly you cannot have unity of faith without hierarchical authority, it is not a bible study but a covenant, a kingdom
With power and authority in a visible ruler
Christ is king in case you never heard it before and obedience to the king is not a suggestion but absolute requirement
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
For a church that is so in favor of hierarchal authority ( not saying it's right or wrong) it astonished me that the church you speak of had it's foundation in history to Roman bishops who gave up Christ as the Lord in favor of secular emperors. Relying on secular armies to enforce church teachings.... Relying on secular armies to to establish the church.... Relying on secular legislative bodies to coerce individuals, and communities into submission to papal authority...
The Bible speaks of religious leaders who trust in worldly rulers as spiritual adulterers. In other words the Catholic Church was founded on adultery.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Little Birdy. I can feel your doubt growing.
What you describe is NOT unity of faith. Faith is not something that can be dictated from on high. Faith must rise from the hearts and minds of believers. You know this don't you? Unity is the natural result of a gathering of believers who all affirm the same truth, and all follow Jesus Christ.
What you follow is a cruel and oppressive tyrannical hierarchy, enforcing rules through intimidation, propaganda and lies. John told us to "come out of her my people" and we did. So can you . . . if you want.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Little Birdy,
Think about this logically. Would we know what the Apostles taught apart from the Bible?
The sentence I highlighted in bold is true.
You were doing so well until you stumbled over the Bible.
Contrary to what your masters are telling you, those of us who are free in Christ, who follow Jesus Christ, would not disagree with the idea that you expressed so well.
Listen to our testimonies. Listen to what we are telling you. Your masters seek power and care not for you or anyone else. Your masters don't want you to have a Bible or read your Bible. Why? Because tyrannical authoritarian rule can not exist where truth and light have a fair hearing. Censorship is the knee jerk reaction to any idea that threatens the power of the dominion, especially the dominion of darkness.
"Scriptures alone" was the slogan that came out of the Reformation, which finds its meaning in that context. The adjective "alone" indicates a life of belief and practice set free from the chains of fear, intimidation, oppression, lies and deceit. It was fitting that Luther nailed his 95 thesis to a door because the Bible was the open door out of the prison the Catholic Bishops created.
In other words, the Bible contradicts the teaching of your masters, which is why they kept it from you for hundreds of years. Those who defend the faith argue from the Bible, not from tradition. And those who have an emotional attachment to tradition, remain unconvinced by the Bible.
You, Little Birdy, are attempting to argue for your tradition using a Bible that is unfamiliar with your tradition. New wine into old wine skins.
both the church and the state have lawful authority from God and the separation of church from state will ensure the state is immoral ie. the good ole USA!
The state requires the church to be just and moral
An article of faith MUST be proposed by the holy church as Christ commanded!
Matt 28:19-20
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
We've had over 1500 years of history to reveal to us all the effects of the union of church and state. And you still claim it's good? Seriously?
- The history of the Frankish wars with Clovis, the "first son of the Catholic Church" (I think I got that right) at the helm.
- The wars over hundreds of years waged against the Waldenses
- The wars by papal Kings against the Christian schools and communities of early Britain
- The Hussite wars
- And I could go on and on, in fact the history books have been purged by Catholic revisionists to hide the full truth of the ghastly immoral horrendously murderous genocidal wars waged against innocent people going about their own business worshipping according to their own conscience, and I don't give a darn for your blind religious attempts to mitigate these abominable policies carried out by your co-conspirators by classing these victims of genocide as "heretics".
believers are not Christians but only catechumens
Faith and baptism are required to be Christian Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 1 pet 3:20-21
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Where did Jesus teach it was the church's responsibility to ensure the state in moral?
The union of church and state throughout history and demonstrated that immoral Popes and prelates continued in their sin with impunity.
