OSAS.... what does this really mean ?

[Gadgetere]

There are nominal Christians ~ Christians only in name. You will soon realize that, I hope.

So "nominal Christians" are as unsaved as "carnal Christians".

Yes, it’s either a person belongs to Christ or not. A nominal Christian does not and a true Christian does.

That's correct; "he who is not with Me is against Me" -- it has been compared to a pregnant woman. She either IS pregnant, or is NOT; there is no "in-between", or "halfway".

If you say that what I said is all true, why do you add a condition as seems to run contrary to that?

What you said about works being the consequence of salvation and not the cause is true; but no OSAS person is willing to interact with verses like Ezk18:24.

If it is not so much to ask, can you state your answer here to my question “What power will he use to undo that, the new creation of God concerning him?”

The power of FAITH. Jude warns us, "Build YOURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love." Paul warns "take care of yourself & your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things -- as you do you will save yourselves..."

Romans1:17, if we read a commentary like Robertson's, teaches that God's righteousness is revealed in us from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith. Exactly as Paul said in Gal3:3, one can begin in the Spirit but end in the flesh, in Gal4:9 one can be KNOWN by God but turn back to weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again. Such a person is (verse 5:4) "apo-katargeo severed from Christ", and "ekpipto-charis fallen from grace". Is there any way to make "severed-from-Christ" and "fallen-from-grace", into OSAS? Or to contend "they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place"? Or to think this is hyperbole, not real, fatherly advice but can't really happen? No. And no, and no.

There is salvation unto eternal life. There is salvation from physical death, from sickness, from pain, from evil men, from as many as there are evil things.

"Eternal salvation" is the only one that's important in the long run; and that is what is in view in James5:19-20, 1Tim4:1, Heb4:11, 2Cor11:3, and many, MANY others.

As I said, it is defining what a nominal Christian is, that is, he is one who is not a true believer, but one who is a Christian in name only. It is not about telling whether one is saved or not at this segment of our discussion. So don’t get confused and mix up issues. I was addressing your question “what is a nominal Christian”, remember? We can discuss that as another segment if you like.

I don't see a distinction between "nominal", and "carnal"; one practices sin (and therefore cannot be walking in Christ with indwelt fellowship), while the other -- well he does exactly that too...

 

[Gadgetere]

Scripture is clear concerning the faith that is of God, that it comes to man.

What verse? Not Rom12:3, that's "Semitic View". Faith is our choice in Heb11:6. In 1Pet1:9. In Rom10:9-10. And more.

And if it comes to man, we coils (could?) only understand that it is not with man to begin with. And for man to have it, is for God to give.

The only place I've found that says "God-gives-faith" other than Rm12:3, is in 1Cor12 -- where there is a spiritual GIFT given to one saved believer and not another. And that may be "Semitic" also. But nowhere have I found that God gives saving-faith to anyone. That would make His command to "love Him", for "all men everywhere to repent", the dictate that "those who do not believe are condemned already BECAUSE they HAVE NOT believed", it would make His command lunacy, or fraudulent.

What do you think about the rebuke of Matt11? Three towns were condemned because they had SEEN Jesus' miracles but still refused to believe! "If Tyre, Sidon, or even SODOM had seen what YOU have seen, they would have repented! It will go better for THEM in the Judgment than for you!" Why? Can that work with "saving-faith is gifted by God to only those He decides"? Nope!

The question now is How does this faith come to man? According to Paul, it is from hearing. Hearing what? Hearing the word of God.(Rom.10:17)

And we're right back to "TAKE CARE HOW YOU LISTEN" (Lk8:18), and "blessed are YOUR ears BECAUSE they hear" (Matt13 something). Each person hearing, CHOOSES to listen or NOT!

Look at Rom9:32 -- they failed because they did not pursue it by FAITH! Who decided the faith or not there?

I don’t know that compatibilism you say there. So, I can’t say anything about that. Besides, whatever it is, I am (not) talking about that nor make reference to it.

Some of what you say mirrors "Reformed Theology"; the bit about "faith is gifted to us by God" for instance. Compatibilism is a sub-doctrine of RT -- it attempts to fit man's free will into God's sovereign determinism of all things (including of who is righteous and lives, and who is wicked and perishes). Basically it says, "Men freely will to believe, but only according to their hearts --- if sovereignly regenerated then they ONLY (freely!) will to believe, but if left reprobate they ONLY will to disbelieve, but they have free will!"

Sorry, that's not free will.

I am not really talking about free will of man, but about how God saves. Whether that turns out in man’s view as unacceptable or unreasonable according to their thinking, does not change the truth that scriptures says about God’s working of His saving a person.

So far no one here has provided any verse teaching that we do not make a conscious choice to follow God through Jesus, or that the same choice does not continue tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

<<<A "true believer" is one who believes Jesus, RECEIVES the Son and the Spirit, indwelling presence, and begins a lifelong walk with them. >>>

Defining what a true believer is, is describing his “believing”; and the condition of his heart, for it is with the heart that one believes, would you agree? That is why, in my definition of what a true believer is, I described it like so “one who is a believer in the right and true sense of believing, as can be learned in scriptures, that is of a faith that comes from God, which is one that is sincere and of a fully persuaded heart, coming from having been touched and convicted by the Holy Spirit about sin, righteousness, and judgment, and of the truth about God, and is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus?”

THAT, is 100% Calvinism; God changes the heart (sovereignly, monergistically, without ANY turning or repenting or believing first!) "Heart-change-before-belief", therefore belief is irresistible, therefore unbelief is impossible.

Have you read Deut30:11-20, which is connected directly with Rom10:6-10? Deut30:12 is a foundational refutation of Monergism! RT's have no defense.

Having said that, I would say that your definition is quite lacking, in comparison. No offense meant.

None taken; we're discussing verses, I look forward to your interacting with the ones I'm citing, and ones that you offer.

Either way, that is my answer to your question “can one who IS STEADFAST, become unsteadfast?

100% yes. What is Peter's warning in 2:3:17, and why does he say "lest you fall from your own steadfastness"?

1 Tim. 4:16 is an exhortation or encouragement to the professing Christian.

16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

I don’t see anything there that speaks about the choosing of being steadfast or not, at least not about the faith that he have, but on the doctrines referred in the contexts.

It's talking to saved people, warning them to continue in salvation. It's the same in 2Jn1:7-9, it's the same in 1Tim1:12-14 --- "Hold fast the sound words (abide in the teaching!); GUARD, by the Spirit who indwells you, the treasure entrusted to you!" Any way "the-treasure", is not eternal life?

Did you ever answer Rev3:11? What crown can the wicked steal from us?

Besides, it is not as though one can take the last part of the verse as though continuing in the doctrines saves a person, more so is foolishness, when that person is already saved.

It means "continue in salvation". 2Jn we are to guard ourselves against deceivers, that we not lose the salvation we have wrought (that we receive the full reward of eternal life). (Because) anyone who goes too far and does not abide in Jesus' teachings has not God; he who abides, has the Father and the Son."

Deceivers can make us go too far and not abide in Jesus and the Father; how could it be clearer?

 

[Gadgetere]

Yes. A heartfully committed union.
Kept, by the Power of God.

No, "kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH". Will you consider Jude20-21, "build YOURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love"? What did he mean?

Not a CATCH 22. Rather a conclusion.

Not conclusion, presumption; a presumption redirects the understanding -- our understanding is supposed to follow Scripture, Scripture is not supposed to turn because of prior presumption.

Luke 8:13 is not about a man HAVING BEEN SAVED. It is expressly about a man HAVING HEARD, Believed, then FELL AWAY.

In what Universe can anyone say "Oh they were never truly saved"? You see why I call it a catch-22 --- because they fell away you PRESUME they WERE never saved".

Catch-22.

Luke 8:13
[13] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

What was the cause of their falling away, and what was the cause of those in 15 being called "fruitful plants"? The Fifteeners "received the word held it fast and bore fruit with perseverance". (The Thirteeners did not persevere in faith but succumbed to temptation affliction and persecution; hence all the warnings "you need diligence", and "by your endurance save your souls"!)

See Heb6:7-8, ONE field can bear EITHER good fruit and be blessed, OR thorns and be cursed. Verses 11-12 "you NEED diligence NOT to imitate the sluggish BUT imitate those who by faith and perseverance inherit the promises!"

It's a study of a combination of Scriptures...
Briefly: OT, repeatedly God was WITH men "when" men were WITH God...
NT, repeatedly God was WiTH Jews "when" they were WITH God.
The NEW Covenant Offered men the POWER of God "IN" THEM, that God would be "WITH' them always....WHEN would that BE POSSIBLE? Conversion! Accepting the Gift of Salvation Jesus Offered.

I'd like to see specific verses, like I've cited specific ones.

Rom 8:

1. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
2. [10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
3. [11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

But if we walk after the flesh again we must die! Only if we are putting to death our flesh (by the Spirit's power), will we live! Those are the next verses 12-14 that you omitted!

No, I did not say that.

That's good; then we agree if "we (saved) continue sinning willfully after having received full knowledge, Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us, but we expect terrifying fiery judgment".

* Why would you ASK GOD to forgive you FOR YOUR Trespass Against another man?

Why ask God forgiveness for a sin not yet committed? If a request for forgiveness is by true repentance, then the sin would not be committed. That was all I was sayin'.

No need, you did not offend me.

:hug:

Yes, that person is STILL SAVED.
IN CONTEXT...Jews traditionally Sacrificed Animals for Forgiveness of SIN.
IN CONTEXT...Jews who accepted the BLOOD of Jesus and Jesus' Salvation, AND "continued" Traditions of "ANIMAL BLOOD sacrifices"....were being TAUGHT...(Animal BLOOD was NO LONGER necessary) and THAT "continuance"...(of Animal Blood Sacrifices) is Disparaging to JESUS' BLOOD Sacrifice ...and to "CONTINUE"...Punishment would be exacted upon them.

Heb 10:29
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Seriously? He's still SAVED? Isn't that "Antinomianism"?

Continue Studying, and discover the "punishment"...
The "punishment"...IS NOT becoming "UNSAVED".

All of Hebrews is warning against becoming unsaved; and 12:7-9 is the clearest verse about "a begotten-of-God child, becoming unbegotten".

That's pretty scary to me, anyone else?

 

[Taken]

There are nominal Christians ~ Christians only in name. You will soon realize that, I hope.

Yes, it’s either a person belongs to Christ or not. A nominal Christian does not and a true Christian does.

Tong
R4645

Just noticing...The "TERMS"
* "Nominal Christian"
* "True Christian"

Have heard people use the same terms "True Christian"...and "Christian in Name Only".

How, Do you define the difference?

 

[Taken]

Taken said; "Kept by the power of God".

No, "kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH". Will you consider Jude20-21, "build YOURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love"? What did he mean?

"No" ?
Kept by the Power of God, is a sufficient Statement.

"THROUGH FAITH", is "HOW", and does not negate my statement.

 

[Tong2020]

Snip…
First let's establish a literary device that was used in the Old Testament, and persisted into the new. Let's read Exodus 10:1: "God said to Moses, 'I have hardened (Pharaoh's) heart and the heart of his servants'." Really? Perfect God, perfectly righteous, in Whom there is no sin, wrought sin into Pharaoh?

Two verses earlier: Ex9:34 "When Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not let the sons of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses."

Wait -- both can't be true, either God did it, or Pharaoh did it! Who actually did the hardening?

1Sam6:6 "Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts?"​

The "literary device", is called Semitic View. It ascribes to God (or others) things men do themselves. God did not harden Pharaoh's heart, Pharaoh did it himself; and no one of OT or NT bent thought God actually did it.

Now you cite Rom11:8, which exactly like Jn12:40 cites Isaiah 6:9-10:

He said, "Go, and tell this people:
'Keep on listening, but do not perceive;
Keep on looking, but do not understand.'
"Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
Their ears dull,
And their eyes dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed."​

Does God really do that? Jesus has already answered -- also quoting Isaiah 6, Jesus says:

Matt13:15-16 "FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."​

There it is -- Jesus blatantly said they close their OWN eyes and ears! 100% "Semitic View", God does not do it!

Focus on "blessed are your ...ears because they hear", and connect that with verses like Lk8:18, "take care how you listen". We decide to open our eyes and ears and see and listen, don't we? Or we decide to close ourselves off from eternity. We are the one who makes the choice.

Note well that several of these verses are "Secondaries" in the doctrine of Calvinism/Reformed-Theology, and "Semitic View" exposes that God does not cause sin; men do it themselves. Here is another "Secondary", embodying Semitic View:

2Cor4:3-4 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."​

Does the devil have the power to shut off men without their permission? No.

Snip…..

That device is used in many verses; for instance, Rom12:3:

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.​

God does not "give faith" to men, faith is required FROM men. You remember Heb11:6, "without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who comes to God must believe He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." In Acts17:26-31 God commands all men everywhere to repent; the greatest commandment (Matt22:37) is for us to love God. If "faith" was something God capriciously gives to certain people, then those commands would make Him an idiot. Or a fraud. Rom12:3 is "Semitic View", just another way of saying, "As much faith as each person has".

Some portions in the quote were snipped (to not go over the post limit) but were however considered in this response.

<<<Perfect God, perfectly righteous, in Whom there is no sin, wrought sin into Pharaoh?>>>

Nobody is saying that God wrought sin into Pharaoh. That God hardened Pharoah does not make God as by that wrought sin into Pharaoh. Scriptures plainly and clearly and without ambiguity states that God hardened Pharaoh. And to ask who is the one who hardened Pharaoh in that statement only have God as the answer.

While scriptures also states that Pharaoh hardened his heart, that is a separate action of Pharaoh from that of God. And such does not take away the act of God stated, that He hardened Pharaoh. Explaining that away as God really in fact did not hardened Pharaoh is as dangerous as the statement of the serpent to Eve in the garden of Eden. As for me, I will go with what scriptures says, that when it states God hardens, it means God hardens.

With regards John 12:40 and Roman 11:8, let me quote:

John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

And you said:

“Does God really do that? Jesus has already answered -- also quoting Isaiah 6, Jesus says:

Matt13:15-16 "FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."​

There it is -- Jesus blatantly said they close their OWN eyes and ears! 100% "Semitic View", God does not do it!”

In John 12, it tells us that God hardened their hearts and blinded them. And so too in Romans 11. In Matt.13, it tells us that they closed their eyes. Must we not accept and believe both? We cannot take one and not the other. It must be accepted that with regards the hardness of heart of those concerned, it is both because they had hardened their heart and because God hardened their heart. This is no different in the case of Pharaoh.

But when the reader, begins to judge according to his own understanding, that God hardening their heart is evil and not righteous for God to do so, there goes the problem. He finds then the two as contradictory and starts to find a way to remove what contradiction he himself had made. And one of this is apparently is this literary device so called “Semitic view”.

Paul tells us what men does and what God does in Romans 1. Let’s read:

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they arewhisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;

Do you see what the people are and what they do?

And do you also see who God is and what He do to them?

Tong
R4657

 

[Taken]

OSAS a catch 22

Taken said, not a catch 22, but rather OSAS, is a conclusion.

Not conclusion, presumption; a presumption redirects the understanding -- our understanding is supposed to follow Scripture, Scripture is not supposed to turn because of prior presumption.

Conclusion;
Scripturally According to the Lord Gods WAY.
In brief...

** An OFFERING:
John 6:
[48] I am that bread of life.
[50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

** ACCEPTANCE of the Lord Gods OFFERING;
"IF"...."THEN"...."SHALL".
** NOT ACCEPTING according to the Lord Gods OFFERING.
"IF" NOT...."THEN"...."SHALL NOT".

Rom 10:
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 8
[10] And if Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Heb 10:
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED.

In what Universe can anyone say "Oh they were never truly saved"? You see why I call it a catch-22 --- because they fell away you PRESUME they WERE never saved".

You have been already told and explained this more than once....

OT - NT *God OFFERED "A WAY"...for earthly men to have GOD "with them".
( Simple...hear Gods word, believe, follow, God would BE WITH Them.
IF... they continue believing, following, TO THE END of their natural LIVES...(ENDURED)
THEY WOULD "THEN" be saved.)
** REPEATEDLY....men believed, FOLLOWED, then didn't FOLLOW....and GOD WAS ... then "NOT WITH" such men.
** WHEN such men AGAIN believed AND FOLLOWED....GOD WAS AGAIN..."WITH THEM".
(read the ancient Scriptural accounts)
"THEIR SALVATION was given AT THE END of their PHYSICAL Bodily LIVES.... "IF" at the TIME of their Bodily Death..."THEY" were believing and Following Gods Word.
SUCH men revealed IN Scripture, WHO DID BELIEVE and FOLLOW to the end of their bodily life....ARE "titled"..."saints"....(because they ENDURED believing, following to the END of their natural bodily life).

THAT ^^^ HAS NOT CHANGED.
The OT Jewish Mosiac LAW (given Gods PEOPLE, and such PEOPLE; called ISRAEL) was FULFILLED...BUT NOT DESTROYED!

Nothing whatsoever PROHIBITS ANY man, from Freely Believing, Following GODS WORD, and GOD WILL BE "WITH" that man.
"IF" that man (endures) Continues and IS believing, IS following TO the END of his bodily LIFE.... HE "SHALL BE SAVED"....AT THE END of his PHYSICAL LIFE.

WHAT HAS CHANGED....IS A NEW OFFERING WAS OFFERED (2,000+ years ago)

**THE NEW OFFERING -
A WAY, to RECEIVE "SALVATION" "BEFORE" the END OF A MANS physical bodily LIFE

THIS WAY..."OF HOW" is expressly REVEALED IN Scripture. "IF" -- "THEN"

THIS "NEW OFFERED" WAY...
* Removes...a mans BURDEN...OF "keeping HIMSELF" BY HIS OWN WILLPOWER ..."WITH GOD"...and THUS...God "WITH" the man.

THIS "NEW OFFERED" WAY...
* IS an OFFERING....NOT a FORCE.
* IS Specific..."according to Gods WAY".
* IS Offered to ALL individuals, regardless IF they be Jew, Blood tribal descended, or Gentile.
* IS Conditional....to an Individuals "Heartful" FREE WILL CHOOSING to Accept or Reject the OFFERING.
(meaning, One can NOT Accept or Reject the Offering "FOR ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL".)
* ONCE, an individual, "heartfully" ACCEPTS the OFFERING...(according to Gods WAY)...
* The ACCEPTANCE... IS Permanent FOR EVER
* THEREAFTER.... THE BURDEN of "GOD WITH"....then "GOD WITHOUT"...then "GOD WITH"....then "GOD WITHOUT"....a man..BY THE mans "WILL POWER TO ENDURE"...
* THEREAFTER...GOD IS "FOREVER WITH" that man....DURING the remainder of the man physical bodily life....and forward to the day the mans body dies and the mans body IS RAISED UP (in a new body)....
ONCE and FOREVER, God IS WITH THAT MAN.
* GOD, IS "WITH" THAT man FOR EVER...."BY Gods POWER"....(effectively NO LONGER, a reliance on the mans own willpower).

"God Himself...AND...THE "individual himself"...KNOWS "IF"...he HAS Accepted Gods OLD OFFERING..or NEW OFFERING....or DECLINED the OLD OFFERING...or DECLINED the NEW OFFERING.

* One man....Hearing another man, CLAIM he has ACCEPTED Gods "old or new" Offering, is simply one man Hearing the Testimony of another man.
* It MAY Be true or not.
BECAUSE....NOTHING NEW...that which was GOOD, precise, BECOMES MUDDLED, by HOW men SPEAK in NONSPECIFICS.
.....oh, oh.....A BELIEVER...reveals what Specifically? NOTHING.
Believer today, but not tomorrow? Check again tomorrow, same person, not a believer.
Believer in What? God? God and Christ?
Believer ACCORDING to what? Their CARNAL MIND? Or Their HEART?
Baptized...according to what? Dipped in water? Or According to Gods Baptism of the Holy Spirit?
Church member...according to what? A mans brick and mortar denomination title? Of a member of Christ's Church within them?
Christian? According to what? Hearing, listening, following...or Born Again?

Presuming and Guessing what others mean with their VAGUE non-specific expressions...
Routinely Leads to disagreements...

Catch-22.

What was the cause of their falling away

FALLING AWAY...is ALWAYS POSSIBLE...
WHEN THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS NOT "IN" a man!

The NEW BETTER TESTAMENT....IS NEW, IS BETTER...PRECISELY BECAUSE;
IT IS AN "ASSURANCE" that...GODS SPIRIT REMAINS "WITH" AND "IN" the man FOR the Rest of his NATURAL bodily life...BY GODS POWER .....

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Catch 22? No.
Understanding what applies to whom, when and why.

Here is MY TESTIMONY...
I, ONCE, called on the Lord, CONFESSED, my Heartful Belief, IN the Lord God Almighty...
I, ONCE, received, the Lord Gods CONVERSION...
(Which IS INCLUSIVE OF ALL HIS WORKS, Scripturally revealed, FOR an individual the Lord God CONVERTS)

I CAN NOT...fall away....PERIOD.
There IS NOTHING, that "UNDOES" Gods "CONVERSION" IN a man....PERIOD.

1 John 4:
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: BECAUSE greater is he that is IN you, than he that is in the world.

THEM? ARE THEY....WHOM the POWER of GOD, IS NOT "IN" THEM.

* Not...a mystery.
* Also NOT a mystery, are the precise, repetitive WARNINGS IN SCRIPTURE...
'UNTIL' the POWER of GOD IS IN a man...that man "IS" at risk of falling away.
* AND the "RISK" of falling away...is repetitively TAUGHT... BECAUSE
OF; the power, cunningness, temptations, trickery OF EVIL Demonic angels, who are present ON the Earth (WHO HAVE GREATER powers than a man)
* AND BECAUSE OF: trickery, influence, temptations, (even power seated FORCING) OF: greedy, lying, cheating, WICKED men.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Tong2020]

That would be a concern by one who believes that Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd is not able to keep him and protect him. That would be a concern if one erroneously believes that his salvation or as some put it, remaining to be saved, is on his shoulders and depends on him.

I've given you many verses that plainly say "receive as the outcome of your faith salvation", "he who endures to the end will be saved", "by your endurance gain your souls", "if you continue in the faith firm and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus)" -- can you cite any verses that say "God guarantees we will remain saved"?

What about the last two verses in James?

Here’s one passage:

John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.30 I and My Father are one.”

Here’s what Paul said.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

By the way, in figurative language, may I ask, would you say you have eaten of Jesus’ flesh and have drank of His blood?

The last two verses in James, I have addressed in the other segments.

That is referring to the nation of Israel, having been hardened. Having been hardened, that should tell us how it is with them, unless God takes off the hardening. I don’t find the passage as addressing the question.

As we just established, God neither causes nor removes hardening; each person chooses for himself. On Rom11 -- it can't mean "nations", it says "natural branches" plural; Israel is only one. "They will be grafted in again" --- if "they" is not individuals, then how could members of a nation be grafted in again if they cease unbelieving, unless it's an individual thing? Is it REALLY saying "Oh it's across generations; individuals cannot fall or return, but yer KIDS! Somethin's gotta be done about yer KIDS!"

The message is "branches", individual Jews; audience is single Gentile listeners, "if you A wild BRANCH", single.

<<<God neither causes nor removes hardening; each person chooses for himself. >>>

I had addressed this in my other post.

<<<On Rom11 -- it can't mean "nations", it says "natural branches" plural; Israel is only one.>>>

In the illustration the whole trunk of the olive tree represents Israel and the natural branches are Jews. The "wild olive" tree represents the Gentile world. Paul was not speaking of individual salvation here but of God’s program for Jews and Gentiles as groups.

Consider Hebrews 6:4-6.

Exactly -- in the CASE of those who WERE SAVED, but are falling away. it is impossible/powerless to restore them to repentance WHILE (nasb footnote) they contempt His grace by their willful sin.

Can't make them "twern't-really-saved", and can't make them "didn't-really-fall".

I asked you to consider Hebrews 6:4-6, thinking that you will come to realize one thing and its obvious necessary strong implication. That the truth and situation for the truly and already saved Christian, is that it is impossible for them to be restored to repentance unto Christ again. Now, obviously this impossible thing only arises IF they fall away. It’s an absolute thing. There is no exception given that goes with this. One cannot say that they can be restored as long as they do this or that.

To explain further, take for example, for the sake of illustration, that a truly saved Christian fall away into unbelief, rejecting the gospel and Jesus. When that happens, he could not be restored again to repentance, no matter what. There is nothing that he could do to be saved again. That is what Hebrews 6:4-6 is saying.

Now, what is the obvious necessary strong implication of that? It is that no truly saved Christian will fall away and be lost.

Now why are there who are said to have fallen away into unbelief, rejecting the gospel and Jesus? Who are they if the truly saved ones can not fall away? Who else, but are the ones who are not of the truly saved ones. I call them the nominal Christians ~ those whose faith is not the kind of faith that is of and from God, but that which that is of man. They are the ones who believe that they can by their free will choose to reject the gospel and believe no longer in Jesus Christ. That such choice is real to them and that they can do it should they will to do it so, anytime and for whatever reason; and after falling to unbelief, believes that they can believe again in the gospel and in Jesus. In other words, they are those who believe that they are saved and could by their will, be unsaved and be saved again.

I sincerely think that the Christian should consider that and ponder on what Hebrews 6:4-6 is saying and teaching.

May I ask, what do you take the “death” to be in James 5:19-20?

"Death" is what the Lexicon says -- "Thanatos, physical death with implication of eternity in Hell.”

What implication you append there to the meaning of “death” or “thanatos” depends in the context. In James 5:19-20, the context does not support that implication.

1Tim3:5 is about a bishop, Gal4:11 and Phil.2:16 is about Paul’s labor. So none of those answers the question.

We can read more, if you wish. But I look forward to your thoughts on things like "Semitic View", I trust you'll look it up on the internet.

I did a search, but got nothing about “Semitic View”. If you can give me a link, that would be nice.

And may I ask, you don’t believe that Christ would not let His work and precious blood wasted in any way, shape, or form, or do you? I don’t think you believe and would believe He would.

We enter His fold and become His sheep (Jn10:9, "tis-anyone") by conscious choice, but any of us can become a Prodigal if we choose. As Heb3:12-14 scaringly warns against.

You dodged my question.

Tong
R4658

 

[Taken]

That's good; then we agree if "we (saved) continue sinning willfully after having received full knowledge, Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us, but we expect terrifying fiery judgment".

No, you and I DO NOT AGREE.

The "SAV-ED"...are the "CONVERT-ED".
They DO NOT "CONTINUE TO SIN".

Receiving "KNOWLEDGE"...is one thing.
Receiving "SALVATION".....is another thing.

People CAN receive "KNOWLEDGE" and "continue to SIN".
People WHO RECEIVE "SALVATION" "sin NO MORE". 1 John 3:9

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
There are nominal Christians ~ Christians only in name. You will soon realize that, I hope.

So "nominal Christians" are as unsaved as "carnal Christians".

Nominal Christians aren’t saved.

Carnal Christians may be of the true Christians (babes) or of the nominal Christians.

Yes, it’s either a person belongs to Christ or not. A nominal Christian does not and a true Christian does.

That's correct; "he who is not with Me is against Me" -- it has been compared to a pregnant woman. She either IS pregnant, or is NOT; there is no "in-between", or "halfway".

Yes.

If you say that what I said is all true, why do you add a condition as seems to run contrary to that?

What you said about works being the consequence of salvation and not the cause is true; but no OSAS person is willing to interact with verses like Ezk18:24.

What I was referring to is the condition you add (bold font in your statement).

Gadgetere: All true; yet, if we cease to do good works and turn back to unrighteousness, we perish.

<<<but no OSAS person is willing to interact with verses like Ezk18:24>>>

What is in Ezek.18:24 that you want to point out? I would expect that what it is does not contradict what I said that you said is all true.

If it is not so much to ask, can you state your answer here to my question “What power will he use to undo that, the new creation of God concerning him?”

The power of FAITH. Jude warns us, "Build YOURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love." Paul warns "take care of yourself & your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things -- as you do you will save yourselves..."

Romans1:17, if we read a commentary like Robertson's, teaches that God's righteousness is revealed in us from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith. Exactly as Paul said in Gal3:3, one can begin in the Spirit but end in the flesh, in Gal4:9 one can be KNOWN by God but turn back to weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again. Such a person is (verse 5:4) "apo-katargeo severed from Christ", and "ekpipto-charis fallen from grace". Is there any way to make "severed-from-Christ" and "fallen-from-grace", into OSAS? Or to contend "they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place"? Or to think this is hyperbole, not real, fatherly advice but can't really happen? No. And no, and no.

Tong: What power will he use to undo that, the new creation of God concerning him?”

Gadgetere: The power of FAITH.

Sure about that? Are you saying that one who was created anew by God in Christ Jesus uses the power of faith to undo the work of God in him, that is, his creating him anew? That’s weird I have to say.

There is salvation unto eternal life. There is salvation from physical death, from sickness, from pain, from evil men, from as many as there are evil things.

"Eternal salvation" is the only one that's important in the long run; and that is what is in view in James5:19-20, 1Tim4:1, Heb4:11, 2Cor11:3, and many, MANY others.

Yes. But why I pointed the many other salvation, is because in scriptures, not every time we read the word “save” refers to salvation unto eternal life.

As I said, it is defining what a nominal Christian is, that is, he is one who is not a true believer, but one who is a Christian in name only. It is not about telling whether one is saved or not at this segment of our discussion. So don’t get confused and mix up issues. I was addressing your question “what is a nominal Christian”, remember? We can discuss that as another segment if you like.

I don't see a distinction between "nominal", and "carnal"; one practices sin (and therefore cannot be walking in Christ with indwelt fellowship), while the other -- well he does exactly that too...

Well, I already defined my use of nominal Christian. And what I take a carnal Christian is. Whatever it is for you, just know what I meant when I use nominal Christian and carnal Christian in my posts.

Tong
R4659

 

[Taken]

What you said about works being the consequence of salvation and not the cause is true; but no OSAS person is willing to interact with verses like Ezk18:24.

Ezek 18:
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

I am a "OSAS" believer.
I will "interact" with you concering Ezek 18:24.

Ezek 18:24...APPLIES to individuals BEFORE Salvation was "OFFERED" to individuals, ("WHILE THEY ARE STILL BODILY ALIVE IN THEIR NATURAL FLESH BODY".)

I already covered this WITH YOU.
Men "WITH" God, by "their own power".
God "WITH" a man, WHEN a man is "WITH" God.

Ezek 18:24 is about a righteous man...turning away.
What is a "righteous man"?
A man believing and following Gods Way.
In the OT, what KEPT a "righteous man" Righteous?
The mans effort and will to "continue" believing in God and following Gods way.

BE informed, realistic, understand...
Routinely men DID, and DO....hear, believe, follow....THEN... GET DISTRACTED, HEAR OTHER WORDS that entice them, tempt them, and the man BEGINS to "IGNORE" Gods WORD, and instead, FOLLOW the WORDS OF men, (and evil spirits)
THEY ^^ HAVE willingly TURNED AWAY from "righteousness"!

WHAT HAPPENS is told you IN Ezek 18:24...
1) they turn AWAY from righteousness (GOD)
2) they turn TOWARD unrighteousness.
3) What the man DID while righteous (following God)...is IRRELEVANT, accounted FOR NOTHING.
4) What the man DID..."good works toward men"....irrelevant
5) what the man DID..."good works toward God'...irrelevant
6) what the man DID..."trespasses Against men"...SHALL BE ACCOUNTED toward him.
(Ie NOT forgiven.)
7) what the man DID..."sin Against God"...SHALL BE ACCOUNTED toward him.
(Ie NOT forgiven.)
8) THAT man, SHALL bodily DIE, without forgiveness of his trespasses AGAINST men and without forgiveness of his sin AGAINST God....
9) NO FORGIVENESS? NO Salvation of his soul, NO Quickeneing of his spirit, NO bodily rising up in Glory.
10) He shall be risen UP in Damnation, Judged damnable, Sentenced to Eternal Separation FROM God.

* WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH A Person, centuries later, OFFERED, a WAY and Having Received the Offer...Forgiven and of soul Salvation, spirit Quickeneing, and assured promise of bodily raising in glory?

NOTHING! No Applicability

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Scripture is clear concerning the faith that is of God, that it comes to man.

What verse? Not Rom12:3, that's "Semitic View". Faith is our choice in Heb11:6. In 1Pet1:9. In Rom10:9-10. And more.

Romans 10:17

Romans 12:3 establishes faith as being given. As also does 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

And if it comes to man, we coils (could?) only understand that it is not with man to begin with. And for man to have it, is for God to give.

The only place I've found that says "God-gives-faith" other than Rm12:3, is in 1Cor12 -- where there is a spiritual GIFT given to one saved believer and not another. And that may be "Semitic" also. But nowhere have I found that God gives saving-faith to anyone. That would make His command to "love Him", for "all men everywhere to repent", the dictate that "those who do not believe are condemned already BECAUSE they HAVE NOT believed", it would make His command lunacy, or fraudulent.

What do you think about the rebuke of Matt11? Three towns were condemned because they had SEEN Jesus' miracles but still refused to believe! "If Tyre, Sidon, or even SODOM had seen what YOU have seen, they would have repented! It will go better for THEM in the Judgment than for you!" Why? Can that work with "saving-faith is gifted by God to only those He decides"? Nope!

<<<And that may be "Semitic" also. >>>

If you so want to take them like so. All may be “Semitic” perhaps, such as perhaps the gift of knowledge? The gift of teaching? And so on.

<<<But nowhere have I found that God gives saving-faith to anyone. That would make His command to "love Him", for "all men everywhere to repent", the dictate that "those who do not believe are condemned already BECAUSE they HAVE NOT believed", it would make His command lunacy, or fraudulent.>>>

Nope. Faith comes by hearing, hearing the word of God. God’s word came to Abraham, but not to the rest of man in that generation. And why not? God’s word came to the children of Israel in the generation of Moses, but not to the rest of the nations of the world. Why not?

Now, to them to whom God sent His word and have them hear Him, faith came to them. But what about the rest? Can they have faith?

The command “to love Him”, “for all men everywhere to repent”? Fraudulent, Lunatic? Nope. The commands are God’s words. While the commands are universal in form and substance, they only are relevant and have affects those to whom they are sent and be heard.

<<<Three towns were condemned because they had SEEN Jesus' miracles but still refused to believe! "If Tyre, Sidon, or even SODOM had seen what YOU have seen, they would have repented! It will go better for THEM in the Judgment than for you!" >>>

That is a figure of speech, a way of speaking to emphasize Jesus’ point. He is telling them why they, in that city and generation, have become.

Tong
R4660

 

[Tong2020]

The question now is How does this faith come to man? According to Paul, it is from hearing. Hearing what? Hearing the word of God.(Rom.10:17)

And we're right back to "TAKE CARE HOW YOU LISTEN" (Lk8:18), and "blessed are YOUR ears BECAUSE they hear" (Matt13 something). Each person hearing, CHOOSES to listen or NOT!

Look at Rom9:32 -- they failed because they did not pursue it by FAITH! Who decided the faith or not there?

Regarding hearing, first, the word of God should be sent. Second, the words of God are heard by spiritual ears. While the physical ear hears the sound of it, they do not understand them, at least spiritually.

What is the relevance of Romans 9:32 in our subject of how faith comes to man?

I don’t know that compatibilism you say there. So, I can’t say anything about that. Besides, whatever it is, I am (not) talking about that nor make reference to it.

Some of what you say mirrors "Reformed Theology"; the bit about "faith is gifted to us by God" for instance. Compatibilism is a sub-doctrine of RT -- it attempts to fit man's free will into God's sovereign determinism of all things (including of who is righteous and lives, and who is wicked and perishes). Basically it says, "Men freely will to believe, but only according to their hearts --- if sovereignly regenerated then they ONLY (freely!) will to believe, but if left reprobate they ONLY will to disbelieve, but they have free will!"

Sorry, that's not free will.

As I said, I don’t know what they teach nor I make reference to what they teach. I am coming from my reading of the scriptures. So, I cannot speak for them. And I am not interested in what they say. Sorry.

I am not really talking about free will of man, but about how God saves. Whether that turns out in man’s view as unacceptable or unreasonable according to their thinking, does not change the truth that scriptures says about God’s working of His saving a person.

So far no one here has provided any verse teaching that we do not make a conscious choice to follow God through Jesus, or that the same choice does not continue tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

I suggest you first try to study how God saves. And along the way you will see where and when that conscious choice comes in and how it comes in.

<<<A "true believer" is one who believes Jesus, RECEIVES the Son and the Spirit, indwelling presence, and begins a lifelong walk with them. >>>

Defining what a true believer is, is describing his “believing”; and the condition of his heart, for it is with the heart that one believes, would you agree? That is why, in my definition of what a true believer is, I described it like so “one who is a believer in the right and true sense of believing, as can be learned in scriptures, that is of a faith that comes from God, which is one that is sincere and of a fully persuaded heart, coming from having been touched and convicted by the Holy Spirit about sin, righteousness, and judgment, and of the truth about God, and is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus?”

THAT, is 100% Calvinism; God changes the heart (sovereignly, monergistically, without ANY turning or repenting or believing first!) "Heart-change-before-belief", therefore belief is irresistible, therefore unbelief is impossible.

Have you read Deut30:11-20, which is connected directly with Rom10:6-10? Deut30:12 is a foundational refutation of Monergism! RT's have no defense.

You know a lot of what others say, I could see that. But what they say or teach had nothing to do with what I say. Did not even mention them. So, why keep bringing them into the mix? It does not have anything to do with my post.

We are at defining or describing what to each of us is a true believer. If there os anything that you object to in my definition, refute it if you must or perhaps put up a biblical argument against it, if you will, or ask men questions if want something explained.

I can’t defend what other’s say and teach nor can answer for them. Sorry.

Either way, that is my answer to your question “can one who IS STEADFAST, become unsteadfast?

100% yes. What is Peter's warning in 2:3:17, and why does he say "lest you fall from your own steadfastness"?

Very well, then it is for you. It makes me think what steadfast love means for example.

As for me I go with what steadfast means. If you say you are steadfast and say you may not be later, that does not make sense, or that you were not really steadfast after all.

1 Tim. 4:16 is an exhortation or encouragement to the professing Christian.

16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

I don’t see anything there that speaks about the choosing of being steadfast or not, at least not about the faith that he have, but on the doctrines referred in the contexts.

It's talking to saved people, warning them to continue in salvation. It's the same in 2Jn1:7-9, it's the same in 1Tim1:12-14 --- "Hold fast the sound words (abide in the teaching!); GUARD, by the Spirit who indwells you, the treasure entrusted to you!" Any way "the-treasure", is not eternal life?

Did you ever answer Rev3:11? What crown can the wicked steal from us.

It’s a crown right? A reward or prize that is earned. Well, salvation isn’t a reward or prize that is earned, for one. That gies for eternal life as well.

Besides, it is not as though one can take the last part of the verse as though continuing in the doctrines saves a person, more so is foolishness, when that person is already saved.

It means "continue in salvation". 2Jn we are to guard ourselves against deceivers, that we not lose the salvation we have wrought (that we receive the full reward of eternal life). (Because) anyone who goes too far and does not abide in Jesus' teachings has not God; he who abides, has the Father and the Son."

Deceivers can make us go too far and not abide in Jesus and the Father; how could it be clearer?

A true believer, an elect for that matter, may be deceived. Such as when one is, he falls into sin. But then, being deceived will not send you to hell. Do you think it will?

May I ask, is being deceived a sin?

Tong
R4661

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
There are nominal Christians ~ Christians only in name. You will soon realize that, I hope.

Yes, it’s either a person belongs to Christ or not. A nominal Christian does not and a true Christian does.

Just noticing...The "TERMS"
* "Nominal Christian"
* "True Christian"

Have heard people use the same terms "True Christian"...and "Christian in Name Only".

How, Do you define the difference?

The nominal Christian isn’t a true Christian. There are many ways to define the difference, for a nominal Christian differ with a true Christian in many ways. One difference between a nominal Christian and a true Christian, is that the former have a faith that is of man, while the latter have a faith that is of and from God. Another way of putting it perhaps is that the former do not have the right faith in God and the latter does. Still another way is that what the former believes is not the true Jesus and gospel, while the latter believes the true Jesus and gospel. And so on. But nonetheless, both are said and known by the world to be Christians.

Though I would say, in general, the difference has to do with the matters of the heart, and of faith.

I hope that somehow satisfies your question.

Tong
R4662

 

[Taken]

The nominal Christian isn’t a true Christian. There are many ways to define the difference, for a nominal Christian differ with a true Christian in many ways. One difference between a nominal Christian and a true Christian, is that the former have a faith that is of man, while the latter have a faith that is of and from God. Another way of putting it perhaps is that the former do not have the right faith in God and the latter does. Still another way is that what the former believes is not the true Jesus and gospel, while the latter believes the true Jesus and gospel. And so on. But nonetheless, both are said and known by the world to be Christians.

Though I would say, in general, the difference has to do with the matters of the heart, and of faith.

I hope that somehow satisfies your question.

Tong
R4662

Thanks for sharing your POV.

All genuine Faith comes from God, whether or not the person IS SAVED.

 

[Tong2020]

All genuine Faith comes from God, whether or not the person IS SAVED.

Can you elaborate on that?

Tong
R4667

 

[Taken]

Can you elaborate on that?

Tong
R4667

Faith is a gift from God.
God gives (measures) faith to people for Hearing His word.
Men can continue to hear, continue to increase receiving faith....or stop hearing, and stop receiving faith....and become vunerable to hearing the evil and wickedness of this world, stay away from hearing Gods Word...
And Fall from faith.
Remain hearing, continue hearing, a mans faith increases, the desired point is:
FAITH-FUL and desired intent is: being prepared to COMMIT TO A CONVERSION.

 

[Tong2020]

Faith is a gift from God.
God gives (measures) faith to people for Hearing His word.
Men can continue to hear, continue to increase receiving faith....or stop hearing, and stop receiving faith....and become vunerable to hearing the evil and wickedness of this world, stay away from hearing Gods Word...
And Fall from faith.
Remain hearing, continue hearing, a mans faith increases, the desired point is:
FAITH-FUL and desired intent is: being prepared to COMMIT TO A CONVERSION.

<<<Faith is a gift from God.>>>

Yes.

<<<God gives (measures) faith to people for Hearing His word.>>>

Is this with reference to Romans 12:3?

If so, I do not think that the whole of mankind is referred to there as can be seen in the context.

Tong
R4668

 

[Taken]

<<<Faith is a gift from God.>>>

Yes.

<<<God gives (measures) faith to people for Hearing His word.>>>

Is this with reference to Romans 12:3?

If so, I do not think that the whole of mankind is referred to there as can be seen in the context.

Tong
R4668

Yes, specifically Romans 12:13 is sufficient regarding measures of faith.

The whole of mankind is not interested to hear.
And not to overlook, "falling from faith"..ie "falling away".
A man can hear, receive a measure of faith, and "reject it", and hear no more.

 

[Gadgetere]

Taken said; "Kept by the power of God".
"No" ?
Kept by the Power of God, is a sufficient Statement.

Yes, "no". Because faith is our constant choice, God does not keep us if we want to leave; that was the purpose of the Prodigal Son story. It's the message in Heb3:12-14 (take care BRETHREN lest you be hardened by deceitful sin to an unbelieving heart that falls away from God). It's the message 2Pet3:17 (do not be carried away by deceitful men and fall from your own steadfastness), it's the message in Heb4:11 (do not fall and fail to enter God's rest by imitating Israel's disobedience and unbelief), it's the message of 2Jn1:7-9 (watch yourselves against deceivers that you not lose what you've wrought, that you may receive the full reward, anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings has not God; he who abides has the Father and the Son). It's the message of 1Jn2:26-28 (be careful against deceivers, abide in Him so that you not shrink-in-shame when He returns). It's the message of Col2:6-8 (as you have received Him so walk in Him, being built up and established in faith; see that no one takes you captive according to philosophy and empty deception, according to men's traditions or worldly principles rather than according to Christ).

There are many more like that. What shall we do with all of these to continue in OSAS? Mark them out? Tear out the pages? Stamp them "NOT REALLY"? Or just pretend they aren't there?

They are there. All these verses are lying on the table waving their hands, crying:

"Hey! What about us?!?!"​

"THROUGH FAITH", is "HOW", and does not negate my statement.

And we are to BUILD OURSELVES in holy faith, and KEEP OURSELVES in His love (Jd20-21); so again "NO", God does not keep us against our will.

Can you resist these verses, Taken?