One of the Best Explanations I've seen on Satan's sin.

[Aunty Jane]

Yes I know, but somewhere along the line years ago I thought I read that "Lucifer'' was God's right hand Angel and that he questioned God and became jealous as he was the most beautiful of all Angels and wanted to be worshiped like God, It was so long ago I forget my memory isn't that good anymore.

I understand completely.....not a youngster myself.....
Did you hear that from scripture though? It does identify satan originally as a very beautiful creature, who was taken by his own magnificence into sin, but he was never called Lucifer. Things can get muddled....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ya...sons of God are not angels or humans. Angels do not reproduce.

Wow...you mean you have invented a completely different race of beings who are not angels or humans? Do tell....

The topic: The Magi worshipped Christ.

She said....The magi did not "worship" Jesus. Obeisance is not worship.

Now she says the definition of the word and all the scriptures I provided as to how the word was used in the NT is a weak argument. Another person that does not believe that scriptures matter.

So now I am a “she” spoken about in the third person....

You are apparently not used to people disagreeing with you.

The whole thing you reposted (as if I can’t read) does not support your argument.
Read the definition again.... “to do reverence to” is not necessarily “worship”....obeisance is paying homage or due respect to one who is so deserving of it. In Bible times it was customary to bow to one of superior standing. That is not worship. No human was to be worshipped. The word only applied in that sense when it was directed to God. (Luke 4:8) Can you comprehend the fact that you might be in error on these points? Is there any possibility that your views need correcting?

Who bows down to worship? Do Jews? Do Christians?.......Do Muslims? Do you?

 

[Grailhunter]

The whole thing you reposted (as if I can’t read) does not support your argument.

It does in fact support it 100%. Every scripture that, that word is used in, I gave you. It is no surprise to me...
I have been in Kingdom Halls. I know what you people do. It is all about picking what you like and attempting to explain away what you don't like. My patience with you is only because I believe in the female voice in Christianity.

Gnosticism is not inline with Christianity, but for sure, they are more Christian than Jehovah's Witnesses. So I know, it is as simple as that. Understanding the scriptures is not about choosing what you like and what you do not like. Forming a religion about what you like and what you do not like is going to lead to false beliefs. Here the topic of the Magi that were thought to be witches because they were a people of science. They knew from their science that there would be sign. They traveled the distance and brought Christ a treasure to support Him and His family. They then worshipped Him. Christians did not understand that and changed the scriptures to read wise men....LOL...Well they were wise! The fact that you do not like that they worshipped Him because they knew who He was, does not change the scriptures.

But the bottom line is, if scripture do not mean anything to you....I have no reason to talk to you.
Logically if scriptures mean nothing to you....goodbye.

Did Christ bow down when He prayed to his father?

Kneeling before God is that something contrary to your beliefs? Why is this a surprise?

You can take your stuff and talk to someone else because I have nothing to say to someone that deny the scriptures or even the deity of Christ.

 

[Cassandra]

The Bible does not say who they worshipped. And there is a lot more to this story.....
And it would blow your mind.

@Grailhunter. I want to know what it is!!!Start a thread!!!!!Please!!!! I was always wondering about the Magi. Is this like what you think? How Did the Wise Men (Magi) Know This Was the Messiah? How Did They Know to Follow His Star?

 

[Grailhunter]

@Grailhunter. I want to know what it is!!!Start a thread!!!!!Please!!!! I was always wondering about the Magi. Is this like what you think? How Did the Wise Men (Magi) Know This Was the Messiah? How Did They Know to Follow His Star?

The Magi are an historical group. You can look this up. But in a fundamentalist environment it would cause to much grief to talk to much about it. I say that the word means sorcerers and witches, but the term witches had not been coined yet...Do not suffer a witch to live....that cannot be in the Old Testament....it applies to sorcerers and mediums.

If you look into the history of it they were more or less considered magikens not exactly magicians...something that the Jews eventually accursed Christ of being. Because they knew things and could do things that others could not, it was all considered magic. Sort of like if you went back to biblical times with your smart phone it would be considered magic....

Either way you can look it up.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Let’s review those scriptures Grailhunter....starting with the definition you posted....

proskuneó: to do reverence to
Original Word: προσκυνέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proskuneó
Phonetic Spelling: (pros-koo-neh'-o)
Definition: to do reverence to
Usage: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.

When offered to a human it is obeisance.....but when offered to God, it is worship.

Now with that in mind, read those scriptures again.....

Matthew 2:11 And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.

Men offering obeisance to a human child whom they recognised as royalty....not deity.

Matthew 8:2 And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.”

Again this is obeisance offered to Jesus Christ...the anointed of Jehovah, sent by “the only true God” to save mankind. (John 17:3) No human can be worshipped because that is against God’s law. Jesus was 100% human. He accepted due honour as the “son of God” but there is not a single verse in the Bible that calls him “God the Son” and you know it.

Matthew 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

A man giving honour to a prophet of God who heard that this man was able to do healing....he was not “worshipping” Jesus.

Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

“Son of God”....not “God the Son”....no worship here either, just due honor because of who they recognised Jesus to be. If Jews had hailed Jesus as “God”, they would have been stoned to death for blasphemy!

Matthew 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Obeisance.

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Obeisance

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Obeisance....the risen Christ was still not God. He appeared to them in human form.

Luke 24:52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

No worship....obeisance because they knew that their Lord Jesus was the divine Son of God....but not God.

John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

This is worship of God.....rightly rendered as “worship”.

John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Obeisance.

Act 10: 25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Clearly this is obeisance since it was rendered to Peter. Humans do not render worship to other humans.

Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Since this is before the throne of God, it is rightly rendered “worship”.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Yep.... “worshipped God”. Are we getting it yet?

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

“Worshipped God”.

Revelation 16:2...19:20...20:4 are about worshipping the beast

How does one “worship” the beast in this passage? Context mate...context.

You are seeing only what you want to see.....one word...two meanings, determined by context.

This is the word most often used in the NT for worshipped. Some translations interpret the word....in some scriptures...by describing the physical posture of worshipping. So by definition and scriptural expression....it is the word used for worshipped. But it is the same word used in all of these scriptures.

Try again.....the physical posture is one of bowing down, which is not necessarily worship as the scriptures you provided clearly show.

 

[Cassandra]

The Magi are an historical group. You can look this up. But in a fundamentalist environment it would cause to much grief to talk to much about it. I say that the word means sorcerers and witches, but the term witches had not been coined yet...Do not suffer a witch to live....that cannot be in the Old Testament....it applies to sorcerers and mediums.

If you look into the history of it they were more or less considered magikens not exactly magicians...something that the Jews eventually accursed Christ of being. Because they knew things and could do things that others could not, it was all considered magic. Sort of like if you went back to biblical times with your smart phone it would be considered magic....

Either way you can look it up.

I read that they had access to the scripture through Cyrus, and used these verses:
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Numbers 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Magi are an historical group. You can look this up. But in a fundamentalist environment it would cause to much grief to talk to much about it. I say that the word means sorcerers and witches, but the term witches had not been coined yet...Do not suffer a witch to live....that cannot be in the Old Testament....it applies to sorcerers and mediums.

If you look into the history of it they were more or less considered magikens not exactly magicians...something that the Jews eventually accursed Christ of being. Because they knew things and could do things that others could not, it was all considered magic. Sort of like if you went back to biblical times with your smart phone it would be considered magic....

Either way you can look it up.

How about looking it up in the Bible?
@Cassandra.....The magi (from which we get the word “magic”) were practicers of what was forbidden in God’s law. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

When they said that they saw “his star” (meaning the one that led them to Jerusalem and to King Herod) it is evident that they were Babylonian astrologers who practiced magical arts and who were unwittingly used by the devil to bring his birth to the attention of a wicked and jealous king who would not tolerate any rival to the dynasty he counted on to continue with his own sons...not some Jewish interloper. The star was NOT from God...nor were the magi notified by God that Jesus was born to be king of the Jews. That information came from somewhere else.....as did the “star” which was not a natural celestial phenomena. Stars don’t move in the sky and then stop.

If the star was from God, it would have led them directly to Jesus as it did when they left Jerusalem after notifying Herod of the child’s birth. It “came to a stop” above the very “house” where Jesus was now a “young child”, not a newborn infant. (Matthew ch 2) They had no evil intent, but were used as dupes by Satan who wanted to do away with Jesus before he even had a chance to grow up. God made sure that no harm came to him before he took up his assignment as Messiah.

Reading into scripture things that are not actually stated is foolish. You can make the scriptures say whatever you like by weaving errors into them in by inference.....that doesn’t make assertions into facts.

 

[Grailhunter]

Matthew 2:11 And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.

Men offering obeisance to a human child whom they recognised as royalty....not deity.

Christ always was and always will be a God....that is the problem with the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Magi knew He was a God, that was why they were tracking Him.

Matthew 8:2 And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.”

Again this is obeisance offered to Jesus Christ...the anointed of Jehovah, sent by “the only true God” to save mankind. (John 17:3) No human can be worshipped because that is against God’s law. Jesus was 100% human. He accepted due honour as the “son of God” but there is not a single verse in the Bible that calls him “God the Son” and you know it.

Wrong again....Christ always was and always will be a God

Matthew 8:2 And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.”

Again this is obeisance offered to Jesus Christ...the anointed of Jehovah, sent by “the only true God” to save mankind. (John 17:3) No human can be worshipped because that is against God’s law. Jesus was 100% human. He accepted due honour as the “son of God” but there is not a single verse in the Bible that calls him “God the Son” and you know it.

Again and again....you are talking to Christians....they know that Christ is the Son of God....a God....full-fledged God. Always was and always will be. Whatever Jehovah's Witness Bible you have is corrupted.

Try again.....the physical posture is one of bowing down, which is not necessarily worship as the scriptures you provided clearly show.

Not necessarily to kneel to worship....to say it was and is not a custom would be incorrect. Again what problem do you have kneeling and worshipping God? And Christ was and is a full-fledged God.

So move this along to someone else because my patience is spent.

 

[Grailhunter]

How about looking it up in the Bible?
@Cassandra.....The magi (from which we get the word “magic”) were practicers of what was forbidden in God’s law. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

When they said that they saw “his star” (meaning the one that led them to Jerusalem and to King Herod) it is evident that they were Babylonian astrologers who practiced magical arts and who were unwittingly used by the devil to bring his birth to the attention of a wicked and jealous king who would not tolerate any rival to the dynasty he counted on to continue with his own sons...not some Jewish interloper. The star was NOT from God...nor were the magi notified by God that Jesus was born to be king of the Jews. That information came from somewhere else.....as did the “star” which was not a natural celestial phenomena. Stars don’t move in the sky and then stop.

If the star was from God, it would have led them directly to Jesus as it did when they left Jerusalem after notifying Herod of the child’s birth. It “came to a stop” above the very “house” where Jesus was now a “young child”, not a newborn infant. (Matthew ch 2) They had no evil intent, but were used as dupes by Satan who wanted to do away with Jesus before he even had a chance to grow up. God made sure that no harm came to him before he took up his assignment as Messiah.

Reading into scripture things that are not actually stated is foolish. You can make the scriptures say whatever you like by weaving errors into them in by inference.....that doesn’t make assertions into facts.

Go away!

 

[Brakelite]

How about looking it up in the Bible?
@Cassandra.....The magi (from which we get the word “magic”) were practicers of what was forbidden in God’s law. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

When they said that they saw “his star” (meaning the one that led them to Jerusalem and to King Herod) it is evident that they were Babylonian astrologers who practiced magical arts and who were unwittingly used by the devil to bring his birth to the attention of a wicked and jealous king who would not tolerate any rival to the dynasty he counted on to continue with his own sons...not some Jewish interloper. The star was NOT from God...nor were the magi notified by God that Jesus was born to be king of the Jews. That information came from somewhere else.....as did the “star” which was not a natural celestial phenomena. Stars don’t move in the sky and then stop.

If the star was from God, it would have led them directly to Jesus as it did when they left Jerusalem after notifying Herod of the child’s birth. It “came to a stop” above the very “house” where Jesus was now a “young child”, not a newborn infant. (Matthew ch 2) They had no evil intent, but were used as dupes by Satan who wanted to do away with Jesus before he even had a chance to grow up. God made sure that no harm came to him before he took up his assignment as Messiah.

Reading into scripture things that are not actually stated is foolish. You can make the scriptures say whatever you like by weaving errors into them in by inference.....that doesn’t make assertions into facts.

Mary, Joseph, and the baby were not in the stable in Bethlehem all that time until Jesus was a toddler. He was circumcised after 8 days, we are not told where. After Mary's honoring of the law regarding her purification, 42 days, they took the child to Jerusalem and presented Him in the temple. I would imagine that it was after this they went to Egypt to escape Herod, well before he ravaged Bethlehem. The 'wise men' from the east presented their gifts in Bethlehem, but not in the stable. KJV Matthew 2:11
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
This must have been within that first month.

Also, at the time of these wise men, the magi so called, were not magicians on the modern sense. They were astronomers, not astrologers. They were off the same class that centuries before had come to find out why the sun had stopped in the days of Hezekiah. The gifts they brought were from God and they provided the funds they needed to live for several years in Egypt.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Mary, Joseph, and the baby were not in the stable in Bethlehem all that time until Jesus was a toddler. He was circumcised after 8 days, we are not told where.

Luke 2:1-14....
"Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Au·gusʹtus for all the inhabited earth to be registered. 2 (This first registration took place when Qui·rinʹi·us was governor of Syria.) 3 And all the people went to be registered, each one to his own city. 4 Of course, Joseph also went up from Galʹi·lee, from the city of Nazʹa·reth, into Ju·deʹa, to David’s city, which is called Bethʹle·hem, because of his being a member of the house and family of David. 5 He went to get registered with Mary, who had been given him in marriage as promised and who was soon to give birth. 6 While they were there, the time came for her to give birth. 7 And she gave birth to her son, the firstborn, and she wrapped him in strips of cloth and laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the lodging place.

8 There were also in the same region shepherds living out of doors and keeping watch in the night over their flocks. 9 Suddenly Jehovah’s angel stood before them, and Jehovah’s glory gleamed around them, and they became very fearful. 10 But the angel said to them: “Do not be afraid, for look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have. 11 For today there was born to you in David’s city a savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this is a sign for you: You will find an infant wrapped in strips of cloth and lying in a manger.” 13 Suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly army, praising God and saying: 14 “Glory in the heights above to God, and on earth peace among men of goodwill.”

Where does your statement fit in to the Biblical record?

As for his circumcision....
"After eight days, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived.

22 Also, when the time came for purifying them according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to Jehovah, 23 just as it is written in Jehovah’s Law: “Every firstborn male must be called holy to Jehovah.” 24 And they offered a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of Jehovah: “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.”

So we know that the magi's gifts were not given to a newborn because the offering that Mary and Joseph made at the temple were the offerings of the poor.
And since Herod had carefully ascertained the time of the star's appearance and had all the infants 2 years of age and under put to death, Jesus could well have been anything up to two years old by the time the magi arrived.

We do not have a lot of detail regarding the early life of the firstborn child born of Mary and Joseph, but we do know that Jesus was the oldest of at least six siblings. We also know that God intervened when he perceived a threat to the life of his son.The only other mention of him was when his parents discovered him missing on one of their yearly trips to Jerusalem and found him in the Temple questioning the teachers.

The 'wise men' from the east presented their gifts in Bethlehem, but not in the stable. KJV Matthew 2:11
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
This must have been within that first month.

The gifts were certainly not rejected since it was apparently their custom to bring gifts to royal children and there was no evil intent in their visit.....but it was not before their offering at the Temple. They would never have offered such a sacrifice to God if they were sitting on expensive presents.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Go away!

LOL...not a chance....

If you can't stand the heat.....stay out of the kitchen I say.....

Just address the posts, not the poster. No need to get narky just because someone has your measure...and can go toe to toe with you.

Perhaps the 'grail' does not exist....and what would be the point in finding it anyway?

 

[Cassandra]

How about looking it up in the Bible?
@Cassandra.....The magi (from which we get the word “magic”) were practicers of what was forbidden in God’s law. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

When they said that they saw “his star” (meaning the one that led them to Jerusalem and to King Herod) it is evident that they were Babylonian astrologers who practiced magical arts and who were unwittingly used by the devil to bring his birth to the attention of a wicked and jealous king who would not tolerate any rival to the dynasty he counted on to continue with his own sons...not some Jewish interloper. The star was NOT from God...nor were the magi notified by God that Jesus was born to be king of the Jews. That information came from somewhere else.....as did the “star” which was not a natural celestial phenomena. Stars don’t move in the sky and then stop.

If the star was from God, it would have led them directly to Jesus as it did when they left Jerusalem after notifying Herod of the child’s birth. It “came to a stop” above the very “house” where Jesus was now a “young child”, not a newborn infant. (Matthew ch 2) They had no evil intent, but were used as dupes by Satan who wanted to do away with Jesus before he even had a chance to grow up. God made sure that no harm came to him before he took up his assignment as Messiah.

Reading into scripture things that are not actually stated is foolish. You can make the scriptures say whatever you like by weaving errors into them in by inference.....that doesn’t make assertions into facts.

They were not Babylonian in the first place.Medo Persian, and Cyrus probably lost his teeth when Daniel showed him he was named in those books they had. He probably wanted them. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that they too had the scriptures. I'm sure they watched the stars.
Nobody said anything about Jesus age when they came--I know I didn't. And I don't believe for a minute that Satan put that star there.
It was necessary that they see Jesus so they can give Him the gifts which could be sold to help them in Egypt. And then there is this:
Numbers 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

 

[Aunty Jane]

They were not Babylonian in the first place.Medo Persian, and Cyrus probably lost his teeth when Daniel showed him he was named in those books they had. He probably wanted them. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that they too had the scriptures. I'm sure they watched the stars.

Babylon was conquered by the Medo-Persians but they in turn were conquered by Alexander the Great in 331BCE. But Alexander kept Babylon as a center for art and culture because it was a beautiful city.

Nobody said anything about Jesus age when they came--I know I didn't. And I don't believe for a minute that Satan put that star there.
It was necessary that they see Jesus so they can give Him the gifts which could be sold to help them in Egypt. And then there is this:
Numbers 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

There is not a lot written in the scriptures about these magi....but according to my research....
"Some English versions (Dy, KJ, Le, AS) translate the original Aramaic word ga·zerinʹ as “soothsayers.” (Daniel 2:27; 4:7)
This astrological cult consisted of those “who, from the position of the stars at the hour of birth, by various arts of computation and divining . . . determined the fate of individuals.” (Gesenius’s Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon, translated by S. P. Tregelles)

The Hebrew "ḥarṭṭōm" means "magician, magician-astrologer" according to Strongs.
Astrology is essentially polytheistic; its birth in the lower Mesopotamian Valley likely dates back to shortly after the Flood when men turned away from the worship of the true God. The name "Chaldean" in time became practically synonymous with “astrologer.”

In possession of knowledge in astronomy, Babylonian religious beliefs centered around the worship of Marduk and astrology. A different god was believed to rule over each section of the heavens. Every celestial movement and phenomenon, such as the rising and setting of the sun, the equinoxes and solstices, moon phases, eclipses, and meteors, were said to be the doings of these gods. These cosmic movements were therefore regularly noted, elaborate charts and tables of their occurrences were made, and from these, human affairs and terrestrial events were predicted. All matters, both public and private, were believed to be controlled by these gods of the heavens. As a consequence, political or military decisions were not made until the astrologers were called to read and interpret the omens and give their advice. In this way the priestly class grew to have great power and influence over the lives of the people. They claimed supernatural power, insight, and great wisdom. No great temple was erected among the Babylonians that was not equipped with its own celestial observatory.

In the eighth century B.C.E., the prophet Isaiah, in foretelling the destruction of Babylon, challenged the stargazing astrological counselors of that doomed city to save her: “You [Babylon] have grown weary with the multitude of your counselors. Let them stand up, now, and save you, the worshipers of the heavens, the lookers at the stars, those giving out knowledge at the new moons concerning the things that will come upon you.” (Isaiah 47:13)

IMV, your reference to Numbers 24:17 mentions a "star out of Jacob" who was Jesus Christ.....which is nothing whatever to do with a star leading pagan astrologers to Jesus from an outside Gentile nation.
Sorry, but you are reading things into scripture that are not really there. Why do you want the star to be from God? That would make him responsible for the deaths of all those babies.....the "star", sending them to the wrong place.

 

[JohnPaul]

I understand completely.....not a youngster myself.....
Did you hear that from scripture though? It does identify satan originally as a very beautiful creature, who was taken by his own magnificence into sin, but he was never called Lucifer. Things can get muddled....

I read it in one of those Bible study stories online a long time ago.

 

[post]

The Messiah was never going to BE God....

**ahem**

Zechariah 12

"ME whom they pierced"

**cough**

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have always read it was pride, and that is true, but I was always curious as to how this was begun.

I was studying Ezekiel 28 today, and using David Guzik's Bible Commentary, and read this:


"Satan's desire to exalt himself above his associates (Isaiah 14:13-14) led to some kind of violence. This has first reference to some kind of battle in heaven (as in Revelation 12:7), but also to violence against humanity made in the image of God (John 10:10). i. This violence against humanity is perhaps explained by the idea that Satan rejected God’s plan to create an order of beings made in His image (Genesis 1:26), who would be beneath the angels in dignity (Hebrews 2:6-7a; 2 Peter 2:11), yet would be served by angels in the present (Hebrews 1:14; 2:7-8; Psalm 91:11-12) and would one day be lifted in honor and status above the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3; 1 John 3:2). Satan wanted to be the highest among all creatures, equal to God in glory and honor, and the plan to create man would eventually put men above angels. He was apparently able to persuade one-third of the angelic beings to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:3-4, 7, and 9)"

Ezekiel Chapter 28 Commentary

This makes a great deal of sense to me. Wonder what you folks think about it?

This commentary has a lot of maybes and perhaps. So perhaps yes, perhaps no! We do know that Lucifer had iniquity in his heart and it clearly shows pride in that he wanted to exalt himself above God! Everything else has to remain a maybe till we go home!

 

[Aunty Jane]

**ahem**

Zechariah 12

"ME whom they pierced"

**cough**

You need to see someone about that cough.....is there a testing station nearby?

Zechariah 12:10 is one of “those” verses that trinitarians cling to in the hope of proving that Jesus is God....but this is a prophesy about the prelude to Armageddon....the “great and fear-inspiring day of the Lord”.

Did the apostles have any doubt about who Jesus was?.....and what his relationship with his Father was?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth—as there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father. All things are from Him, and we exist for Him. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ. All things are through Him, and we exist through Him.” (HCSB)

This is not an ambiguous statement, is it? Paul clearly delineated the difference between the Father and the Son. All the apostles held the same belief. The third “person” is invariably missing so apparently “he” doesn’t come into the “godhead” until he is squeezed in there by inference.

Jesus actually separated himself from his God and Father in John 17:3...in prayer...
“Jesus spoke these things, looked up to heaven, and said: Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that the Son may glorify You, 2 for You gave Him authority over all flesh; so He may give eternal life to all You have given Him. 3 This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and the One You have sent—Jesus Christ.” (HCSB)

Does one part of God pray to himself? Does one part of God need to ‘authorise’ the other equal part of himself? And we apparently do not need to “know” the Holy Spirit because again, “he” is absent.

Did Jesus ever say that he was “God”.....?...even once?
John 10:34-36....when the Jews were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on Jesus......
“Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in your scripture, I said, you are gods? 35 If He called those whom the word of God came to ‘gods’—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say, ‘You are blaspheming’ to the One the Father set apart and sent into the world, because I said: I am the Son of God? (HCSB)

Here was a perfect opportunity for Jesus to admit he was God because they were accusing him of blasphemy anyway.....notice that God himself called his appointed judges in Israel “gods”.....and Jesus was “sent into the world” and called himself “the Son of God”.....but never once in all of scripture did he call himself “God the Son”......the Catholic church did that. It’s a lie...a play on words.... blasphemous one.

So in reference to Zechariah’s prophesy, the apostle John said...
“Also, another Scripture says: They will look at the One they pierced.” (John 19:37 HCSB)
Was John indicating that God was the one they pierced? No. The “one they pierced” was Jesus who was born a mortal human.....God is immortal and cannot die....especially not at the hands of mere humans.

Here is an interesting scripture for you to ponder....
Hebrews 1:1-4...
“Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways. In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son. God has appointed Him heir of all things and made the universe through Him. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact expression of His nature, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. So He became higher in rank than the angels, just as the name He inherited is superior to theirs.” (HCSB)

Can God give himself an inheritance? Can God give himself a higher in rank than the angels? Can he have a name that was not already higher than theirs....? (Psalm 83:18)

In discussing any of these issues, don’t we need to be mindful of the deceiver and all his tricks to get humans to disobey God and get offside with him? What better way to separate humans from God than to lie about who he really is?...to get them to commit blasphemy without them even realising it?

So, if you want to discuss the trinity and where it is found in scripture, I can show you way more scripture that shoots it down in flames.....so please be mindful of the scriptures you quote (whilst coughing)....make sure you quote them in context, and in line with what the rest of the Bible says.....not just the bits that you think back up what you want to believe.

 

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Zechariah 12:10 is one of “those” verses that trinitarians cling to in the hope of proving that Jesus is God....but this is a prophesy about the prelude to Armageddon....the “great and fear-inspiring day of the Lord”.

I didn't realize you were anti-trinitarian.

You also will kneel to Jesus Christ, you also will declare Him to be LORD. That's what it means, you know.

Much love!