Christians are not under the New Covenant

[theefaith]

Paul contrasts faith with works...

"...to the one who does not work, but believes..." Romans 4:5​

'Believing' is separate and distinct from 'working'.
'Believing' makes one righteous.
Working does not.

still volition
You still must choose to believe
And you must continue believing until death
Jn 3:16 believes present tense not a one time thing

 

[theefaith]

Replacement theology is completely bogus, as a careful reading of all of Romans 11 makes ridiculously clear.

The new covenant is still with the House of Israel and gentile believers are grafted as wild Olive branches, onto Israel’s Olive tree by faith, which is the only way we enter into their new covenant.

we enter the new covenant by baptism


1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Matt 21:43 kingdom taken from Israel given to the church

there are no Jews neither jew or Greek

 

[theefaith]

These verses...

"...to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:" Romans 4:5-6​

The KJV says "without works"...

"5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" Romans 4:5-6​

Righteousness is imputed to a person through faith without works. But the Catholic priesthood says righteousness is imputed to a person through faith and works.


Of course it doesn't say 'I know they faith that is alone'. Our faith is known by our works. Works show whether or not we have faith: "...I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18. That's why God looks at our works. But that hardly means those works make you righteous. It doesn't mean that at all.

Works aren't required because they make you righteous (works can't do that). Works are required because they show that you believe and are made righteous by faith apart from your works. That's the very point you're not getting. And you're not getting it because you were taught by the Catholic priesthood that works do make you righteous. I know that knot is going to be pretty hard for you to untie. But just go with what the Bible says, not what Catholic priests say.

never said works make you righteous but grace enables both faith and works to be meritorious and efficacious James 5:16

 

[theefaith]

These verses...

"...to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:" Romans 4:5-6​

The KJV says "without works"...

"5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" Romans 4:5-6​

Righteousness is imputed to a person through faith without works. But the Catholic priesthood says righteousness is imputed to a person through faith and works.


Of course it doesn't say 'I know they faith that is alone'. Our faith is known by our works. Works show whether or not we have faith: "...I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18. That's why God looks at our works. But that hardly means those works make you righteous. It doesn't mean that at all.

Works aren't required because they make you righteous (works can't do that). Works are required because they show that you believe and are made righteous by faith apart from your works. That's the very point you're not getting. And you're not getting it because you were taught by the Catholic priesthood that works do make you righteous. I know that knot is going to be pretty hard for you to untie. But just go with what the Bible says, not what Catholic priests say.

2 pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

how would it be possible to “grow in grace” if it’s only imputed?

 

[theefaith]

...But not for justification.
That happens by faith without works.

Faith yes faith alone no
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5

 

[theefaith]

I agree that a declaration of righteousness can be lost, but that's not the point of our discussion, so let's not cloud things up with that issue.

Catholics continually lose the imputation of God's righteousness, when they sin. And so they are caught in this continual never ending cycle of being re-justified, over and over again through ritual works. But Hebrews 10:14 makes it clear that justification is a one-time for all-time declaration, and that the necessity for continually being justified (made righteous) is brought to an end in Christ (Hebrews 10:11-12). You are made righteous one-time for all-time the moment you believe. Sinning doesn't cause you to revert back to your unconverted state. Only a return to unbelief can do that. Because the imputation of God's righteousness (justification) is not based on works. It is based on your faith.

then repentance is meaningless

1. 1 Corinthians 6:9
   Know ye not that the unrighteous shall notinherit the kingdom of God? Be notdeceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Galatians 5:21
   Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shallnot inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Btw if the apostles taught faith apart from works how did the eunuch know about baptism?

Why do you think 'righteousness by faith, without works' means you don't have to obey God's commands? That's not what it means.

'Righteousness without works' means you don't perform a ritual or sacrament, or any work of righteousness to have righteousness imputed to you. Faith all by itself does that, apart from works. Paul uses Abraham as proof of that. The Catholic priesthood says that is not true. They say you have to have faith and do works to have righteousness imputed to you. They think that is what James is saying when he says a man is not justified by faith alone, but also by works (James 2:24).

 

[theefaith]

...Yes, but just not the reward of justification. For one, he already has justification. And, two, justification (being made righteous) is not acquired by works. It is acquired by faith without works (Romans 4:6). So works do not acquire a claim to supernatural reward of justification. Only faith without works does that.

1. Romans 6:13
   Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and yourmembers as instruments of righteousness unto God.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Romans 6:19
   I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. 1 Corinthians 6:15
   Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Colossians 3:5
   Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
   
   Christian suffering!
   
   Patience Implies suffering!
   
   In order to bear fruit we must deny ourself, suffer, and die!
   
   John 12:24
   Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
   
   Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
   
   Matthew 24:42
   Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
   
   Verses of Christian suffering:
   
   Matthew 10:38
   And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
   
   Matthew 16:24
   Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
   
   Matthew 16:25
   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
   
   John 12:24
   Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
   
   25
   He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
   
   Romans 5:3
   And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
   
   Romans 5:4
   And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
   
   Romans 8:17
   And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
   
   2 Corinthians 12:9
   And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
   
   2 Thessalonians 1:5
   Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
   
   Colossians 1:11
   Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
   
   2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
   
   2 Timothy 2:12
   If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
   
   Phil 1:29
   For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
   
   James 1:2-8
   My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing
   
   Hebrews 6:12
   That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
   
   Hebrews 10:36
   For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
   
   Hebrews 12:4
   Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
   
   1 Peter 2:20
   For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
   
   Romans 8:17
   And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
   
   2 Timothy 2:12
   If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[theefaith]

Yes, but it won't justify you. Faith all by itself without works does that. Paul proved that by using the example of Abraham.

Lk 18:14 justified by prayer and humility?

 

[theefaith]

Yes, but it won't justify you. Faith all by itself without works does that. Paul proved that by using the example of Abraham.

heb 6:1-2

paul teaches faith and baptism

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

sacraments!
Even confirmation laying on of hands

 

[theefaith]

These are some relevant verses on the subject (WEB):

Justified by faith:
Romans 3:28)

We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.​

Romans 3:20)

20) Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
​

Romans 5:1)

Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;​

Galatians 2:16)

yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ

​

paul teachs faith and baptism same as Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38


Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

 

[theefaith]

Why do you think 'righteousness by faith, without works' means you don't have to obey God's commands? That's not what it means.

'Righteousness without works' means you don't perform a ritual or sacrament, or any work of righteousness to have righteousness imputed to you. Faith all by itself does that, apart from works. Paul uses Abraham as proof of that. The Catholic priesthood says that is not true. They say you have to have faith and do works to have righteousness imputed to you. They think that is what James is saying when he says a man is not justified by faith alone, but also by works (James 2:24).

Then all men are saved

 

[theefaith]

Why do you think 'righteousness by faith, without works' means you don't have to obey God's commands? That's not what it means.

'Righteousness without works' means you don't perform a ritual or sacrament, or any work of righteousness to have righteousness imputed to you. Faith all by itself does that, apart from works. Paul uses Abraham as proof of that. The Catholic priesthood says that is not true. They say you have to have faith and do works to have righteousness imputed to you. They think that is what James is saying when he says a man is not justified by faith alone, but also by works (James 2:24).

God says baptism! Ez 36:25:27
Jesus Christ says baptism! Mk 16:16
Peter says baptism! Acts 3:38 1 Pet 3:21
Paul say baptism! 1 cor 1:16 1 cor 12:13
The apostles say baptism! Acts 2:38 acts 8:36-38
For 2000 yrs the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles has always taught baptism per matt 28:19

disciples made by baptism matt 28:19 Jn 4:1 not faith alone or faith apart from the sacraments

 

[theefaith]

[QUOTE="Ferris Bueller, post: 1147066,

what concerns me is not you’re misunderstandings with justification but you’re total disregard for apostolic authority the same authority as Christ

Bound on earth bound in heaven matt 16:18-19 and 18:18


Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

 

[theefaith]

Eph 4:5 does not say one Lord one faith apart from works does it

no

Eph 4:5 one Lord one faith one baptism

 

[Ferris Bueller]

1. Romans 6:13
   Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and yourmembers as instruments of righteousness unto God.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Romans 6:19
   I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. 1 Corinthians 6:15
   Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Colossians 3:5
   Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
   
   Christian suffering!
   
   Patience Implies suffering!
   
   In order to bear fruit we must deny ourself, suffer, and die!
   
   John 12:24
   Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
   
   Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
   
   Matthew 24:42
   Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
   
   Verses of Christian suffering:
   
   Matthew 10:38
   And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
   
   Matthew 16:24
   Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
   
   Matthew 16:25
   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
   
   John 12:24
   Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
   
   25
   He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
   
   Romans 5:3
   And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
   
   Romans 5:4
   And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
   
   Romans 8:17
   And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
   
   2 Corinthians 12:9
   And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
   
   2 Thessalonians 1:5
   Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
   
   Colossians 1:11
   Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
   
   2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
   
   2 Timothy 2:12
   If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
   
   Phil 1:29
   For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
   
   James 1:2-8
   My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing
   
   Hebrews 6:12
   That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
   
   Hebrews 10:36
   For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
   
   Hebrews 12:4
   Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
   
   1 Peter 2:20
   For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
   
   Romans 8:17
   And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
   
   2 Timothy 2:12
   If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

You didn't address the content of my post. Why?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Lk 18:14 justified by prayer and humility?

That isn't my quote.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Then all men are saved

Not all men are justified. For not all men have faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

heb 6:1-2

paul teaches faith and baptism

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

sacraments!
Even confirmation laying on of hands

The issue is not that Christ commands water baptism (virtually all Protestants are water baptized in obedience to Christ). The issue is water baptism does not justify a person. It saves a person, for what that actually means, but it in no way imputes righteousness to a person. 'Righteousness without works' does not mean you don't get water baptized. It means water baptism does not impute righteousness.

Faith 'alone', on the other hand (James' argument) means claiming to have faith but then not having any works commensurate with that claim to faith. It has nothing to do with the matter of faith being able to impute righteousness to a person all by itself apart from works.

 

[theefaith]

The issue is not that Christ commands water baptism (virtually all Protestants are water baptized in obedience to Christ). The issue is water baptism does not justify a person. It saves a person, for what that actually means, but it in no way imputes righteousness to a person. 'Righteousness without works' does not mean you don't get water baptized. It means water baptism does not impute righteousness.

Faith 'alone', on the other hand (James' argument) means claiming to have faith but then not having any works commensurate with that claim to faith. It has nothing to do with the matter of faith being able to impute righteousness to a person all by itself apart from works.

yes it does if so n is removed
Ez 36:25-27 “white as snow”
Acts 22:16 “wash away sin”