Who Is The "Root" We're Grafted Into?

[Truman]

Sounds like a good way to learn to me.

 

[APAK]

Sounds like a good way to learn to me.

Pretty agreeable again, more than usual? Are we on a drug high? Seriously though I agree with you and @Hidden In Him. There are a lot of moving parts in this subject anyway and it's very difficult to stay on the 'root' of the thread...pun intended. If this subject of the symbolized Olive Tree and all its interconnects are developed to full maturity (very unlikely) we shall reveal and uncover one of the core threads of scripture in front of our eyes...A tall order!

 

[Truman]

Pretty agreeable again, more than usual? Are we on a drug high? Seriously though I agree with you and @Hidden In Him. There are a lot of moving parts in this subject anyway and it's very difficult to stay on the 'root' of the thread...pun intended. If this subject of the symbolized Olive Tree and all its interconnects are developed to full maturity (very unlikely) we shall reveal and uncover one of the core threads of scripture in front of our eyes...A tall order!

I'm pretty level when I'm not in a lot of pain or stressed. I've heard some are saying I'm a predator. Slander in Romper Room!

 

[Brakelite]

No. I meant that the covenant of grace was given first and foremost to the Jews

Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. The covenant of grace was with the entire planet... It was Israel's duty to share the gospel with everyone else. They failed.

My brother, the huge problem here is that you would have Jesus talking completely past the Jews, as if they were worth nothing more than to have their theology and beliefs used to teach you and I twenty centuries later. We know He is not that inconsiderate a God, so I would have to reject any notion that He was talking completely past His hearers in Matthew 24 to us today. As the passage states, the New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah first and foremost.

I'm preparing a study on who is Israel today, and why. May take a day or two and a separate thread although there are probably 57 threads on the forum already dealing with it lol.

 

[Curtis]

Who is the "root" Paul said the Gentiles were being grafted into in Romans 11? The following is just a thread I'm creating without having fully formulated my conclusion yet, though I do believe I know based on the context. But I thought I would posit it as food for thought while mulling it over.

Blessings in Christ to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

Here is the context in Romans:

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump also; and if the root is holy, so the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. (Romans 11:16-28)

The tree is the Olive tree of Israel, gentiles are the wild Olive branches grafted in amongst the natural branches, and the roots of the tree are Messiah Y’eshua

 

[Curtis]

So when Paul used the "tree" symbolism it likely was a reference to the only collective national body that existed for God's People at that time, Israel. And Gentiles who came to Christ were viewed, by Paul, as being added to the "tree," Israel, even though Israel was falling away.

The transition was taking place from Israel to the Roman Nation, because Jesus said that the Jewish People had largely rejected him, and that the Kingdom of God would be given to another nation more worthy of it at that time

Not quite right.

There’s no such thing as a church covenant. The new covenant was, and remains, the new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and at the present time only a remnant believe in Jesus and are in their own covenant, and we gentiles are grafted in among the natural branches who are part of that remnant, to the Israel Olive tree.

This is why Jesus said salvation is of the Jews. He’s their messiah, the new covenant is theirs, and salvation came to the gentiles to make Israel jealous.

If we’re spiritual Israel, it’s only because we are grafted into that Israelite tree.

Maranatha

 

[Brakelite]

If we’re spiritual Israel, it’s only because we are grafted into that Israelite tree.

That's the metaphor yes, and correct of course. The reality is that Christians are Israel because their Redeemer and Savior is the real Israel.
There's a lot more I'm in the midst of preparing, but here's a snippet...
KJV Isaiah 41:8
8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
KJV Galatians 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Now this I fully agree with.


This as well. The strength of your argument is indeed through the use of the word "Holy," and there is no Holiness without the Holy Spirit.


You'd have to qualify this with "believing Jews upon whom the Spirit rests" rather than all Jews, but if so then yes, I would agree. You see, the branches that were lopped off were Jewish. The distinction was that they rejected the Messiah, and as a result the Spirit was not poured out upon them in confirmation of it.


Again, while I would welcome it if I thought it was there (being Pentecostal myself), I don't think you can limit the analogy to simply the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit came as a result of believing the message, as took place with Cornelius and his house, so the greater "grace" was to receive the revelation of Jesus being the Messiah first.


Ah, yes. Now that rings true. It does appear to be what he is referring to.

Thanks for this post. It's excellent! : )

Good thread; good question. I waited to answer your question because I didn't want to rob you of the experience of discovery. My short answer is this. The Olive Tree represents the holy people of God. (God's household in other contexts.) I agree with you that the lopped off branches aren't holy, but when I said that they were holy by birth, I was attempting to take into account Paul's initial statement at the beginning of chapter 9. Romans 9:1-5 (Consider also Deuteronomy 4:37 Deuteronomy 7:6 Deuteronomy 10:15 Deuteronomy 14:2)

In that context Paul asserts that because his people are Israelites, "the adoption as sons" belongs to them. It belongs to his people. And because it belongs to them as a birthright, he would gladly give up his life if God would actualize this birthright among every individual among his people. But, he says, not all Israelites are "Israelites" of the promise. He argues this point at the beginning of chapter 11; that the Holy Tree will consist of a remnant of Israel, rather than the entire nation. Unfortunately, while it belongs to them as a people, not all of them will experience it. Thus, natural branches (it belongs to them) being cut off.

Even so, Paul warns us Gentiles to not be arrogant toward the branches: he means the branches that were cut off.

 

[Earburner]

If you mean most of them did, then yes. And I find it interesting the wisdom of God, that He would allow so much time for the Gentiles to come in, before culminating it all by returning His focus to His chosen people.

Why is it that Israel can be returned to their land and restored as a nation, surrounded by enemies on all sides, and yet many still fail to see the stage now being set for the literal fulfillment of Biblical prophecy? I find it strange.

Why?
Evidently you do not know of the financial riches of the Banking Elite Rothchild family, and the agreement that they entered into, in order to purchase the God rejected land of Israel from Great Britain for the Jews.

As for the "Deliverer" Jesus, He already came to them, but they "did not know the time of their visitation" Luke 19:44. Therefore, the only way that Jesus now comes to them, is through Born Again Christians, sharing with them the Gospel of the KoG, who is Christ Himself.
Mat. 23[39] For I say unto you [Jews], ye shall not see [percieve] me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Earburner]

Good thread; good question. I waited to answer your question because I didn't want to rob you of the experience of discovery. My short answer is this. The Olive Tree represents the holy people of God. (God's household in other contexts.) I agree with you that the lopped off branches aren't holy, but when I said that they were holy by birth, I was attempting to take into account Paul's initial statement at the beginning of chapter 9. Romans 9:1-5 (Consider also Deuteronomy 4:37 Deuteronomy 7:6 Deuteronomy 10:15 Deuteronomy 14:2)

In that context Paul asserts that because his people are Israelites, "the adoption as sons" belongs to them. It belongs to his people. And because it belongs to them as a birthright, he would gladly give up his life if God would actualize this birthright among every individual among his people. But, he says, not all Israelites are "Israelites" of the promise. He argues this point at the beginning of chapter 11; that the Holy Tree will consist of a remnant of Israel, rather than the entire nation. Unfortunately, while it belongs to them as a people, not all of them will experience it. Thus, natural branches (it belongs to them) being cut off.

Even so, Paul warns us Gentiles to not be arrogant toward the branches: he means the branches that were cut off.

About Rom. 11.
Here is a thought to dwell on today:
Romans 11[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

1. Who is the firstfruit?
Strong's G536 "a beginning of sacrifice" .
2. Who is the root?
G4491 "a root , literally or figuratively."

Q. Is not Jesus Himself the firstfruit?
Q. Is not Jesus' Holy Spirit the source of our spiritual nourishment, as in water, river or rain, that only a "root" could deliver?

We are called to follow Jesus in His Resurrection, and are to give ourselves (bodies) to God as a living and holy sacrifice.

Q. Wouldn't that make us, who are born again, to be "a kind* of firstfruits" (a likeness after the firstfruit James 1:18), being born of the "seed" of the Holy Spirit ("after his kind*"-Gen.) to make us to be [holy] new creatures?

*kind- G5100- some or any person or object.
Aka- anyone who is born again.

And the word "lump" in Rom. 11:16, see Strong's G5445- meaning as in a lump of dough.
Which of course is the whole of what would be made, that being "The Israel of God", who were/are of faith in the Promise of the Gift of salvation that was to come, who is Christ.


And finally, wouldn't the lump be symbolic of ALL the Saints, both those of faith from the OC and the NC, being "the Israel of God"?
Remember Malachi 3:16 and those shown in Revelation 6:9-11, who were under the altar.
No one recieved the Holy Spirit permanently until after Jesus' "sacrifice", as being THE initial beginning firstfruit.
Romans 11[26] And so all Israel [of God] shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Ever since Jesus' first appearance, He has and still is fulfilling Romans 11:26, until that day of His Glorious return "in flaming fire" .

 

[Brakelite]

I'm the OT there was the promise of a rebuilt sanctuary, but when the builders saw the plans and the foundations, they cried because it seemed so small and insignificant. Yet the promise was that it would be the most blessed... And that was because the Messiah walked inside is precincts. You are right. That was what made it holy. The presence of God.
We in another sense are also the sanctuary of God and are also holy, for the same reason. Christ in us the hope of glory.
In Numbers16, Korah thought it appropriate to burn incense and rebelled against Moses and Aaron claiming the whole congregation was holy. He had quite the following. What was interesting about that was not that the ground swallowed them up, but that the rest of the people were so deceived and confused they blamed Moses for their deaths.
The confusion today is no less... Confusing... To the people than it was then. Discerning between the weeds and the wheat. The weeds can be quite handsome examples of botanic beauty, having much pretentious flowery attractions, and outward claims to glory. Thank God there will always be the law and the testimony to which we may turn for true light. Isaiah 8:20.
Threads like this are fun, enlightening (not always in a good way), but tricky to navigate. The deeper one goes however searching for truth, , the more treasure there is to be found.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

:) My brother, the huge problem here is that you would have Jesus talking completely past the Jews, as if they were worth nothing more than to have their theology and beliefs used to teach you and I twenty centuries later. We know He is not that inconsiderate a God, so I would have to reject any notion that He was talking completely past His hearers in Matthew 24 to us today. As the passage states, the New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah first and foremost.

get this was to another member. You said “the huge problem here is that you would have Jesus talking completely past the Jews, as if they were worth nothing more than to have their theology and beliefs used to teach you and I twenty centuries later.”


Past or speaking through ahead to the glory that should follow after?

‘Used to teach you’ … ‘they are there for our examples’? 1 Peter 1:10-13 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: [11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. [12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. [13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven;

“We know He is not that inconsiderate a God, so I would have to reject any notion that He was talking completely past His hearers in Matthew 24 to us today.” Inconsiderate?
John 7:17-18 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. [18] He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Question: God speaking through or past to the end … ‘seeking his glory that sent him’ as in not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven;

is ‘not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister’ what glory should follow after Christ ‘having preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from Heaven? Is this inconsiderate of God in: not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister? Sounds very similar to ‘For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. 2 Corinthians 8:9
Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Romans 11:15-16 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? [16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy : and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

“as if they were worth nothing“
Worth something is though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

And: not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them

“Now reported” unto you by them …makes me think of “if they were worth nothing more than to have their theology and beliefs used to teach you and I twenty centuries later.”

 

[APAK]

Why?
Evidently you do not know of the financial riches of the Banking Elite Rothchild family, and the agreement that they entered into, in order to purchase the God rejected land of Israel from Great Britain for the Jews.

As for the "Deliverer" Jesus, He already came to them, but they "did not know the time of their visitation" Luke 19:44. Therefore, the only way that Jesus now comes to them, is through Born Again Christians, sharing with them the Gospel of the KoG, who is Christ Himself.
Mat. 23[39] For I say unto you [Jews], ye shall not see [percieve] me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

You've been reading my crib notes again....right on though and keep on going..
..and many of these ethnic Israelites have already been converted into Christ because of 'us', many centuries ago (already been grafted back into the Tree) and many were also ignorant of their physical ancestry at the time of their conversion.....this is the dose of reality every true Christian needs to know about, before 'their' dream of a restored physical holy Israel, with a new temple and all, falls down and is completely shattered by the ROCK of our age, that drops the standing image of the kingdoms of men, along with its final attempt to control with a final world government by its 2 feet and 10 toes...it is smashed obliterated....and it is replaced by the true holy New Jerusalem... when our Christ our Lord and Savior 'stands' on the Mountain of olives (symbolic), as the real new life and peace we have all been waiting for...as his Father judged the wicked that filled the earth before him, his Son does the same, as was in the days of Noah....Amen

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Q. Wouldn't that make us, who are born again, to be "a kind* of firstfruits" (a likeness after the firstfruit James 1:18), being born of the "seed" of the Holy Spirit ("after his kind*"-Gen.) to make us to be [holy] new creatures?

but then it gets tricky (Imo) with all the different theologies …being told only they (the Jews) of that era were counted as first fruits …but my question would be then what about the Fruit of the Spirit and doesn’t any one have the Spirit of God that they may bring, bear, Fruit unto God?
Nehemiah 10:35 And to bring the firstfruits of our ground, and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, unto the house of the Lord : Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Exodus 23:19-20 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk. [20] Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

And here we are taking about “first fruits” of increase, “alive unto God” money matters…or ‘alive unto God’ matters?

Also, concerning the topic of the thread…I still can’t get past Revelation 22:16-17 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. [17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

What I can’t get past is how that gets brushed under a rug and the debate continues of who is the root? …is that not sincere then? “I am the root and the offspring of David” for me that, remains confusing, like when he says he is the way, the truth, and the Life…well not technically we might debate in going off on our own to find another way, truth, and the life. Same with living water…maybe there is another “if any drinks of this water they will thirst again, Ask and I will give you Living water”? Yes, it makes no sense to me…how much we can debate over every thing. marks started a thread and then named it “deleted” even there debates are creeping in on politics…

 

[APAK]

And the last new root developed on the 'Olive Tree' was of David... and the only existing branches were of a remnant,, those few that believed by faith in the promise(s) given to Abraham long ago about the future Messiah and the spiritual offspring he would acquire, those also accredited with righteousness...the rest of the branches were dead because of faithlessness....then out of this last new root arose another, a new shoot or branch that grew large and tall, the Messiah, that gave new life to the Tree, whereby the covenant could continue and be completed ...and all Israel will be eventually saved...since Pentecost and even today

 

[marks]

But if you are grafted into the same root as Israel, are you not then Israel?

No. My friend has a tangerine tree with a mandarin orange branch grafted on.

It's still mandarin oranges, but is grafted to the tangerine tree, to received nourishment from the root.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You'd have to qualify this with "believing Jews upon whom the Spirit rests" rather than all Jews, but if so then yes, I would agree.

Maybe look at this in terms of, "if one parent believes, the children are holy".

Much love!

 

[marks]

Another way to approach this question is to ask: what did the Gentiles receive that was also promised to Israel. Or, to put it another way: how did the apostles come to understand that Gentiles were being included among the holy people of God? What proof did God offer to the apostles that he considered some of the Gentiles, such as Cornelius, to be holy (or clean)? Even a cursory study of Acts will reveal that God was consecrating some of the Gentiles and he proved this to the Apostles through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, specifically, the gift of tongues. At the Jerusalem council, Peter testified that God was consecrating some of the Gentiles, giving is account of the event at the house of Cornelius. "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." Acts 15:6-11

Romans 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Here the apostle draws our mind to the idea of holy things: arguing that the part represents the whole. If a piece of dough is holy, for instance, so is the entire lump. Assuming that an entire Olive Tree is holy, then if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Next the apostle draws a distinction between branches of the tree that grew up with the tree itself, and branches from other trees that were grafted to the tree later. He calls them "natural branches" and "wild branches"; and he says that the wild branches represent the Gentiles.

In light of these two facts, we might conclude that the Olive Tree represents the Holy People of God. Jewish people are holy by birth, making them "natural branches" while other people become holy later, making them "wild branches". And wild branches can be broken off just like some of the natural branches were broken off.

Earlier in the chapter, Paul dealt with the issue of individual salvation, informing his readers that being a member of the remnant is NEVER according to birth but ALWAYS according to God's choice. For this reason, Paul's Olive Tree analogy is not likely to contradict this point. He would never say, for instance, that an individual Jew was broken off the tree so that an individual Gentile might be grafted onto the tree. He argues that salvation is by God's choice and since God doesn't make mistakes, there would be no need to break a Gentile apostate off the tree. After all, as Peter testified, God was also choosing some Gentiles the very same way he was choosing some of the Jews: the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

More likely, Paul's Olive Tree analogy attempts to warn the Gentiles as a group, that access to God's promise of the Holy Spirit is still by his choice and he will continue to pour out his spirit among the Gentiles for as long as the Gentiles continue to believe in Jesus Christ. Lest the Gentiles as a group develop an exaggerated sense of their own importance, they need to realize that being attached to the tree was always a matter of God's choice and that faith will always be the marker of those whom God is saving. Besides, Gentile hegemony is temporary; it will not last.

I think this is the best so far.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sounds like a good way to learn to me.

Me too! That's what I'm here for!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why?
Evidently you do not know of the financial riches of the Banking Elite Rothchild family, and the agreement that they entered into, in order to purchase the God rejected land of Israel from Great Britain for the Jews.

Yes, and Cyrus sent the Jews back to Jerusalem, so what? Solomon, I think it was, wrote that God makes the wicked rich to take their wealth and give it to whom He wants.

Much love!