Purgatory True of False

[Mungo]

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

And your point is - what?

 

[JunChosen]

At the risk of lforest stepping in and telling us off for going way off topic again I'll answer you.
Neither the Catholic Church not the Orthodox Churches are Sola Scriptura. That is an unbiblical doctrine introduced in the reformation. Both Catholics and Orthodox recognise Sacred Tradition as the words of God that were not written down in the Scriptures.

The early Church did not derive it's doctrines from Scripture. They were handed down orally by Jesus and the apostles. The NT was not finally decided until several hundred years after Jesus' death. It's the fantasy that you can sit down with a Bible and derive your doctrines from it that has led to the ever splintering 30,000+ Protestant denominations, sects, cults and one pastor churches with conflicting doctrines.

Luke 4:21 reads:
"And he (Jesus) began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

Seeing that @TEXTBOW has already given you Revelation 22:18-19 and like passages tell us, what part of Scripture and what book was Jesus quoting from? And, when Luke penned the above Scripture, was he not under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? (2 Peter 1:21).

And, the word "book" in Revelation 22:18-19 refer to the whole Bible (this can be proven) not just to the Book of Revelation as many (RCC) claim.

Furthermore, I would rather belong to a 30,000+ different congregations where the true Gospel can still be heard and taught, than to a denomination that when their supreme leader teaches false doctrines, the whole congregation falls with him! Please don't get me wrong... there are no perfect church on earth!!!

Today is still the day of salvation.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Mungo]

Luke 4:21 reads:
"And he (Jesus) began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

Seeing that @TEXTBOW has already given you Revelation 22:18-19 and like passages tell us, what part of Scripture and what book was Jesus quoting from? And, when Luke penned the above Scripture, was he not under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? (2 Peter 1:21).

None of the scriptures that TEXBOW quoted prove Sola Scriptura.

And, the word "book" in Revelation 22:18-19 refer to the whole Bible (this can be proven) not just to the Book of Revelation as many (RCC) claim.

'Book' in Revelation means that book only. That is claimed - not just by the Catholic Church, but Orthodox and most Protestants.
If you believe it can be proven that it refers to the whole Bible then prove it.

Furthermore, I would rather belong to a 30,000+ different congregations where the true Gospel can still be heard and taught, than to a denomination that when their supreme leader teaches false doctrines, the whole congregation falls with him! Please don't get me wrong... there are no perfect church on earth!!!

Today is still the day of salvation.

To God Be The Glory

All Protestant churches teach some false doctrines as evident by the many Protestants on this board disagreeing with each other.

Only the Catholic Church was promised by Jesus that the Holy Spirit would lead it into all truth (John 16:13) and Jesus keeps his promises.

 

[MatthewG]

The idea of Purgatory dates back to the writings of Plato and Heraclides Ponticus both pagans. How did this pagan creation get into the Roman Catholic doctrine?

Texbow I do not know. It could come from the scripture of when Jesus had went down to preach to the souls who where in prison from Noah’s time and with that took off in the idea that there was a holding spot for people. Which technically for the people who died in Noah’s Age there was. Along with all the others in Sheol be it paradise or prison.


“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Mungo]

Texbow I do not know. It could come from the scripture of when Jesus had went down to preach to the souls who where in prison from Noah’s time and with that took off in the idea that there was a holding spot for people. Which technically for the people who died in Noah’s Age there was. Along with all the others in Sheol be it paradise or prison.


“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”

‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

No, it comes from Judaism and scripture.
See post #13 and also this thread: - Purgatory - A Catholic's Understanding

 

[MatthewG]

Actually it goes back to Judaism.

“According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments.” (http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-teachings.htm)

The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state. (PURGATORY - JewishEncyclopedia.com)

Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.


Many Protestants believe in a purification after death but they call it Glorification.
Glorification is the Protestant alternative to purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven."
The majority of Protestant denominations believe in this form of glorification, although some have alternative names.
(askdefine.com)

“Glorification involves first of all the believer's sanctification or moral perfection (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Hebrews 2:10-11 ), in which the believer will be made glorious, holy, and blameless (Ephesians 5:27 ). The process of sanctification is at work in us now (2 Corinthians 3:18 ) but moves from one degree of glory to another until it reaches final glory.”
(Bakers Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Terms)

“Glorification marks the completion of Christ's work of redemption as the believer stands before God having been awakened from sin's deadly slumber, having been given a new heart and having been purified completely in soul and body.”
( Dr. James E. Bordwine – Westminster Presbyterian Church)
Covenant Theology: Glorification (Part 1)

Interesting thank you.

 

[TEXBOW]

Texbow I do not know. It could come from the scripture of when Jesus had went down to preach to the souls who where in prison from Noah’s time and with that took off in the idea that there was a holding spot for people. Which technically for the people who died in Noah’s Age there was. Along with all the others in Sheol be it paradise or prison.


“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I don't think any of us can say for sure on these matters but to me, it sounds like, before Christ, those who were righteous went to Sheol. Sheol was divided by a "great gulf" into two places. Good & Bad. The prison Peter mentions I understand to be a different place that God cast those fallen Angels who left their natural abode. Those who took earthly women and brought forth children. Who were put in chains. Some think the children from this union are the Nephelium. Man will speculate about this until the rapture. We do not know for sure why Christ went to the prison but some think to proclaim victory. Some think that Jesus also went to the good side of Sheol and took those Saints to heaven. Ephesians 4:8-10 This makes sense if we also read Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Did Jesus while his body was in the tomb resurrect those OT Saints out of Sheol? Their bodies out of the earthly grave and did they ascend to heaven when he did? Rather than a rapture that takes place in the twinkling of an eye that rapture took several days or at least long enough to appear to many in the holy city.
Many like to skip over Matthew 27:52-53 because they can't explain it. I never heard this mentioned in Church. It certainly looks like an OT Saint rapture to me. Pslams 16:10 David understands that he will not be left in Sheol. I think those who were righteous before God in the OT who were in Sheol were taken to heaven. I think those who were sinners are still in the bad place of Sheol and that is where those who do not believe (their souls) go when they die today. Believers' souls go directly to heaven. The foggy part is understanding hell (lake of fire). Is it the bad place in Sheol? I do not know. I think it is a place of torment but not sure its the final destination of unbelievers after the white throne judgment. If it is the same (the place Lazarus wanted just a drop of water) the heat might be turned up a bit. Maybe the prison is a place within Sheol or hell is the worst place within Sheol.

 

[TEXBOW]

And your point is - what?

My concern is that you have been conformed to this world.

 

[amigo de christo]

It (!?) does to me!

I will do ye one more . JESUS IS THE TREE OF LIFE . HE IS THE TREE OF LIFE . JESUS IS LIFE .
God alone gives all men natural life just as he breathed into adam . BUT JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CANGIVE ETERNAL LIFE .
I AM , THE LIFE . THE LIFE . JESUS SAID THAT . THE LIFE , THE WAY , THE TRUTH . Let all eat of the holy words of JESUS
EAT not of ROME . EAT not of the protestant realm . EAT YE OF THE TRUE ONE JESUS CHRIST .
This whole world is under a snare as are the false religoins and as is most all of even christendom itself .
I am sticking in the bible , this world will do as it does and so will its power hungry religions .
But the lambs must eat of Christ and learn HIM well .

 

[amigo de christo]

My concern is that you have been conformed to this world.

Tex bow . MANY have . MANY within christendom itself have .
In truth i tell us all there only are only really two religions . ONE is of satan and is in any other religoin
ONE IS IN JESUS CHRIST and its THE ONLY ONE that is TRUE .
COME YE OUT OF ROME is my call and COME YE OUT OF MOST ALL the protestant realm . FLEE emergent
FLEE nar , flee prosperity gospel . LEARN BIBLE .

 

[Mungo]

RCC is a cult.

Don't be ridiculous.

 

[Mungo]

My concern is that you have been conformed to this world.

So your scripture didn't have a point.

 

[reformed1689]

Don't be ridiculous.

Oh believe me I'm not.

 

[Mungo]

Oh believe me I'm not.

I don't believe you.
Just calling the biggest group of Christians in the world a cult is really, really, stupid.

 

[Mungo]

Correction, biggest group of "Christians" who follow a false church and preach a different gospel.

Are you suggesting that Catholics are not Christians?

 

[reformed1689]

Are you suggesting that Catholics are not Christians?

your words, not mine.

 

[Mungo]

your words, not mine.

Your words put "Christians" in inverted commas to imply that Catholics are not Christians.

 

[reformed1689]

Your words put "Christians" in inverted commas to imply that Catholics are not Christians.

Oh does it?

 

[Mungo]

Oh does it?

I can do them also.

 

[amigo de christo]

Oh believe me I'm not.

WARN and WARN to the end . She is known as LA MADRE NEOGRA De MINTIDAS Y MEURTE to my spanish friends .
In english that means the Dark mother of lies and death . LET NONE ENTER INTO HER CHAMBERS for they
lead unto SEGUNDA MEURTE , known as second death .