The history of the popes shows that they had no regard for this teaching of Christ. There was a time when every king and ruler in Europe kissed the pope's feet (whoever was pope at that time). But ignored all their machinations and shenanigans. One has to shudder reading about the popes and their evil deeds.
HERESY?
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Know what Paul is calling our flesh. It is our nature. What is born again - our nature - is our mind and heart. IOW our spirit and soul. They are separate from our body of bones. Our spirit and soul changes and becomes immortal. But our body must still die because it is separate from where sin resided. The body is merely a shell controlled by the mind and emotions. It is like a puppet and is controlled by our spirit and heart. Our mind and emotions are our spirit and heart. And they are either controlled by the Holy Spirit or the devil. Those who struggle with sin still belong to the devil. Those who have completely given their lives to God, belong to Him and are lead in righteousness by His Spirit.
Here are a couple of verses that shows that it is our nature that changes.
Ephesians 2:
And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
2 Peter 1:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 for His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 Through these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world on account of lust.
ECF stands for Early Church Fathers. Not just the Apostolic Fathers but all the church leaders (primarily bishops) who wrote extensively until the 15th century. Their writings have been placed on the same level as Scripture by the Catholic Church. While much of what they said was true and edifying, it was cancelled by the false doctrines which they presented and which were taken as Gospel truth. So most of the errors of the CC are rooted in the errors of the ECF.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Enoch have you never felt your old sin nature leave you and you were filled with a new nature? Is that why you believe you still have your sin nature, because you actually do?
This is just laughable. You too have your old sin nature. So does every Christian. The new nature is right there also. Now you have to decide which one to feed and which one to starve.
Instant
Active Member
I am a fan of Strong's Dictionary too, but even if the word hell is understood to mean the grave, it is obvious that when Jesus is describing a place of torment where their worm dieth not, that is so bad you would do good to lose an eye or a hand than go there, it cannot mean just the grave as in the ground. This is common sense. When the Bible speaks of death and hell being cast into the Lake of Fire in Revelation, it is clear this is a literal place with real fire, and those who die lost are tormented there for eternity. But as far as Strong's Dictionary and Concordance go, they are the best. They do not add to the definitions and turn a Dictionary into a Commentary like others do. I also am King James Only, because the newer translations remove portions of the text and change the meaning in other places.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
That dont mean sin is . He meant meats drinks and days my friend .
IF one does err , do as the apostels in said bible wrote to do . For HE is faithful to forgive us our sins
confess them , turn from the evil and learn to do well . IF one has the SPIRIT then they would have as they need to do so .
For the Spirit puts a whole new desire in the heart of a lamb . It hates the very evil of its own flesh .
Cling to Christ.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Wow...where do I start....from the beginning I guess....
Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): "We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."
What reason can be offered except that only one body considered itself the rightful custodian of those scriptures? Any heresy was almost impossible to prove unless people could read the scriptures in their own language......why did the church resist? Could they not have provided such themselves?
Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: "No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned..."
Unlike the Reformers like Wycliffe, Luther and Tyndale who laboured tirelessly to give the Word of God to the people in their own native tongue, the Catholic church wanted to keep a tight rein on its contents. If the Jews were permitted OT scripture in the vernacular (The Greek Septuagint) then what was the church's excuse?
Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to "...helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ's sentence." For this "heresy" Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council's decree "Wycliffe's bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River."
William Tyndale was strangled and his body burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. According to Tyndale, the Church forbid owning or reading the Bible to control and restrict the teachings and to enhance their own power and importance.
Tyndale became convinced that the Bible alone should determine the practices and doctrines of the church and that all believers should be able to read the Bible in their own language. He paid for that with his life....so when did God authorize the church to commit murder? The only thing that was authorized to do with dissenters was excommunication, not murder or torture.
Luther knew that his church had become corrupt....In his theses, Luther condemned the excesses and corruption of the Roman Catholic Church, especially the papal practice of asking payment—called “indulgences”—for the forgiveness of sins.....how disgusting!Hmmmmm..Sooooo Luther knew what wasn't Scriptural? Even though other Protestant men disagreed with Luther during the Reformation in your eyes Luther KNEW but the other Protestant men of the Reformation didn't know??? They were wrong and he was right.... Sooooo you are a Lutheran???? You should be....after all, according to you, Luther KNEW what wasn't Scriptural sooooo why wouldn't you be Luteran???
Blind Freddy could see how corrupt the church had become. But not many were game enough to hold them to account. So Just compare all the church taught with what Jesus taught...the difference is glaringly obvious. The additions too copious to list....but I could try....?
When God looks down from heaven, he does not see denominations.....he sees true Christians and false ones.....that's it...."sheep and goats"...there is nothing more, and nothing in between. Christian is as Christian does.....Jesus said to see the 'fruits' and you will know who belongs to Christ and who does not.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that you chose to become Catholic? What was it that convinced to revert to something so plainly devoid of Christ's teachings? I did not leave Protestantism....I left Christendom because all their core doctrines are the same, originating from the same place......ancient Babylon.
Some background....
"In 313 C.E., persecution of Christians by the Roman world came to an end under Constantine, with the Edict of Milan, which granted freedom of religion to Christians and pagans alike. The legalization of “Christianity” in the Roman Empire turned the tide. However, about 340 C.E., a professed Christian writer called for the persecution of pagans. Finally, in 392 C.E., by means of the Edict of Constantinople, Emperor Theodosius I banned paganism within the empire, and religious freedom died a premature death. With Roman “Christianity” as the State religion, Church and State embarked on a campaign of persecution that lasted for centuries, reaching its zenith in the bloody Crusades of the 11th to the 13th centuries and in the cruelty of the Inquisitions, which began in the 12th century. Those daring to question the established orthodoxy, the monopoly of dogma, were branded as heretics and tracked down in the witch-hunt climate of the time."
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pc/r1/lp-e/1200272255/4/0
This is all in recorded history.
With that background in mind, go back to original Christianity and ask what Jesus did? He preached his message without force and compelled no one to become his disciple. To be baptized as a Christian was not something imposed by birth but something that was to be the choice of one hearing the Christian message and acting on it of their own free will.
That is religious freedom. I am not talking about being free to believe whatever you wish....but to follow the teachings of Christ in all things. I have never seen the Catholic church do that...ever.
Only from your perspective.....it makes perfect sense from mine.
Your interpretation of what I say is not entirely accurate, reading into my words what I did not say or infer.
No. With over 50 years of solid study using all the tools that are available to all of us online, these resources have helped me tremendously.
Like the ancient Beroeans, I carefully check everything I have been taught to make sure it is backed up by the only source of information I trust.....God's word, which contrary to popular Catholic opinion, is not the work of the church, but the work of God, who can use even his enemies to have his will accomplished. Look what Jesus said about the Religious Leaders of his day (Matthew 23).....yet these are the people who produced his Christ on earth.....Jesus did not have a good word to say about them.....he even called their father the devil. He abandoned them because they did exactly what the church did after Jesus' death. They gradually introduced man-made traditions that made the word of God "invalid". (Matthew 15:3-9)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Christ's description of the Pharisees springs to mind....
“Everything they do is meant to attract the attention of others. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. 6 They love to have places of honor at banquets and the best seats in synagogues, 7 and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be addressed as ‘Rabbi.’
8 “But do not allow yourselves to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master, and you are all brethren. 9 Call no one on earth your father, for you have but one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 You must not be called ‘teacher,’ for you have only one Teacher, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you must be your servant. 12 All those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all those who humble themselves will be exalted." (New Catholic Bible)
Where is it written that the first Christians dressed like this?
Were they supposed to emulated the Pharisees in their distinctive clothing?
Did the first Christians meet for worship in buildings like these...? Did Christ command a temple?
If not, why this ostentation? Where did the church get the idea that this was even a Christian thing to do? Or was humility now to be displayed among Christ's followers? Does this speak of humility?
I already addressed that.
It's all well and good to defend what you believe...but if the Bible is not the foundation of your beliefs, then it will show in words and actions.
I do not belong to a "denomination" which assumes one to be part of the fractured churches of Christendom.
I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and have been for coming up to 50 years since my baptism....something I chose to do as an adult, not an infant. And my baptism was full immersion in recognition of what it meant to dedicate my life to the doing of God's will first in life. Unlike the churches, you cannot join Jehovah's Witnesses....you have to choose to become one...just as the first century Jews and Gentiles had to leave their former worship behind and follow a new course chosen by them alone. No sprinkling babies with water and pretending that it is baptism.
The foretold apostasy did not happen overnight, but over a few centuries, where little by little the false ideas crept in and finally made their home in the minds of the leaders....but it was not without controversy that these ideas became doctrines. Not everyone agreed that these ideas were scriptural....especially since it had been so long after Jesus died that they were accepted into the church. If Jesus had taught them, they would be there plain as day in scripture all along.....but they aren't....and never were.
How convenient to adopt an anti-sola scriptura position when none of your doctrines can be found there.
The course of the first Christians seemed indefensible and ridiculous to the majority of Jews....so what's new? (John 15:18-21)
I know......don't they apply to all? Shouldn't they?
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
No I don't. It is dead. But you can honor yours all you like if it helps you justify your willful sins. I prefer my divine nature. You never answered the question. Does your life confirm 1 John 1:8 or not?
But if you actually feel like you don't feed the old nature, and actually follow Christ and do not willfully sin, then even though you believe AND TEACH a false doctrine, you will still be saved, though by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15; James 3:1.
BTW, 1 Corinthians 3:15 does not mean purgatory as you know, but Catholics believe, but it doesn't mean you will be saved even though you are not righteous, but continue to sin. That is another false doctrine. Only those who have overcome will gain entrance to heaven. John 8:32-36
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Don't delude yourself. Paul asked you to crucify your flesh. If it was dead, why would he have said such a thing?
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
You made that up! Those that are Christ's have ALREADY crucified their flesh. It is dead. We now live in Christ.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Galatians 5:24
And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
1 Corinthians 15:
30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
"I die daily," doesn't mean to his sin nature as if it was still alive. It means he faces physical death daily or prison to spread the gospel to the Galatians and others for Christ. He faces jeopardy daily.
So is your old nature dead or not?
cc: @GodsGrace Thought you might like to read this. It covers other heresies being taught on the forums and explains what the truth is.
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Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
I believe that Dispensationalism is a heretical doctrine that has infiltrated the church since the early 1800's and should be discussed in this forum.
I had been "on the fence" for some time; reluctant to brand it so seriously. However, after recently reading a critique of the book 'Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth' written by the Reformed theologian, Dr. John H. Gerstner I am no longer on the fence. It definitely is a heretical system of theology. Following is a small portion of the book that was edited by Don Kistler....
************************************
"As Dispensational theology has a spurious Calvinism so it suffers from a “dubious evangelicalism” according to Dr. Gerstner. In chapter 9 Dr. Gerstner plainly demonstrates how the “Kingdom Offer” concept to the Jews undermines the gospel.
According to Dispensational Theology Jesus Christ did not come primarily to die as a substitute for sinners but to establish His kingdom according to nationalistic Jewish expectations of a militant Messiah. “When Jesus came, He made a bona fide offer of the Kingdom and power to the people of Israel” (Donald G.Barnhouse). Unfortunately, the “Kingdom Offer” was rejected which led to...
The major problem with this whole scenario is that had the Jews responded to Christ’s offer to establish His kingdom “as they ought to have responded. There never would have been a gospel of Jesus Christ” (JHG). It is this positions that Dr. Gerstner finds most objectionable.
“This ‘Kingdom Offer’ is surely an appalling notion” (JHG).
The notion is appalling because it is immoral. “The clear implication of the dispensational view is that God was offering Israel a very wicked option. According to Dispensationalism, the Lord Jesus Christ was offering something to the Jews in good faith which, had they accepted, would have destroyed the only way of man’s salvation” (JHG). This, God would never do because He is righteous. “If God did offer a kingdom which He could not have permitted to be established, He could be neither honest nor sincere” (JHG)."
According to Dispensational Theology Jesus Christ did not come primarily to die as a substitute for sinners but to establish His kingdom according to nationalistic Jewish expectations of a militant Messiah. “When Jesus came, He made a bona fide offer of the Kingdom and power to the people of Israel” (Donald G.Barnhouse). Unfortunately, the “Kingdom Offer” was rejected which led to...
(1) the suspension of time and
(2) the introduction of the “Church Age.”
One day, according to Dispensational Theology, the “Church Age” will end and the “prophetic clock” will move forward again giving the Jews seven years of history according to Daniel’s prophecy of seventy weeks (cf. Daniel 9:24-27). During this seven-year period the Anti-Christ will emerge to lead the world to a blood bath at Armageddon. The Church Age saints will not be present during this “Great Tribulation” period having been “Raptured” seven years earlier at the beginning of the period.(2) the introduction of the “Church Age.”
The major problem with this whole scenario is that had the Jews responded to Christ’s offer to establish His kingdom “as they ought to have responded. There never would have been a gospel of Jesus Christ” (JHG). It is this positions that Dr. Gerstner finds most objectionable.
“This ‘Kingdom Offer’ is surely an appalling notion” (JHG).
The notion is appalling because it is immoral. “The clear implication of the dispensational view is that God was offering Israel a very wicked option. According to Dispensationalism, the Lord Jesus Christ was offering something to the Jews in good faith which, had they accepted, would have destroyed the only way of man’s salvation” (JHG). This, God would never do because He is righteous. “If God did offer a kingdom which He could not have permitted to be established, He could be neither honest nor sincere” (JHG)."
Davy
Well-Known Member
Ha, ha, ha, that is so... funny!
No, Paul was a converted Christian when he wrote his Epistle to the Romans. But that's a good one, making up stories about Paul just to keep the false once saved, always saved traditions of men.
Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
KJV
THAT... is what Paul taught in Romans 8, and in Galatians 5, and in 1 Timothy 1, and in Hebrews 6, and in... etc., etc. It involves a CONDITION.
And that condition is IF... we WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT.
Sorry, you will never convince me that we as Christians are always perfect like Lord Jesus. We cannot... become our 'own' Christ.
Some of the following sins of the flesh I see brethren do still, and even I fall into some of it at times when I don't mean to. (I don't smoke cigarettes anymore, but I do accidentally say little curse words when angry at times.)
Gal 5:16
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
KJV
Rom 8:12-14
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
KJV
Gal 6:8
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
KJV
Rom 6:12-16
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
KJV
Col 3:5-10
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him That created him:
KJV
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I disagree brother. Paul spoke in present tense. He said I can’t do.. Not I could not do.
He is speaking of the struggle all believers have (if they are honest with themselves) with the flesh, which although is defeated. Still holds enough power and can and does direct our decisions we make.
Davy
Well-Known Member
That is really not how God's Word defines our makeup He created us with. Here's a better example...
Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV
1. soul
2. spirit
3. joints and marrow
How does the word 'nature' narrow that above Bible description down? It really does not.
In Romans 7 (KJV), Apostle Paul makes it easy about what it is that tempts our spirit. It is our flesh. So what's the soul? The soul part is the real person, and attached to it is our spirit. Now neither one of those, our spirit with soul is of this material dimension. It is of that other dimension. But while alive here on earth in a flesh body, it is attached to our flesh via a "silver cord" (Ecclesiastes 12:5-7). When or if that silver cord is severed, then our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, but our spirit (with soul) goes back to God Who gave it (and that per Paul in 2 Corinthians 5).
Depending on which Bible version one uses, they can be terribly mislead of what Paul was pointing to in Romans 7:18 that causes most of our sins. It's obvious some don't understand the difference between flesh and spirit.
Rom 7:18
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
NIV
Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
KJV
Rom 7:18-19
18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can't.
New Living Translation
Rom 7:18-19
18 I realize that I don't have what it takes. I can will it, but I can't do it.
(THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language)
Rom 7:18-19
18 I know that nothing good lives in me; that is, nothing good lives in my corrupt nature. Although I have the desire to do what is right, I don't do it.
(GOD'S WORD TRANSLATION)
Rom 7:18-19
18 For I know that nothing good resides in me, that is, in my physical self; I can will, but I cannot do what is right.
Goodspeed Version
Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me, that is, in my lower self, nothing good has its home; for while the will to do right is present with me, the power to carry it out is not.
Weymouth Version
Davy
Well-Known Member
That's right, it's easy to know Lord Jesus was pointing to the future "lake of fire" event at the end of Revelation 20 when the wicked perish at the second death.
You're on a good Bible study path. The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge is a good tool also, also Smith's Dictionary which is pretty old like the Strong's.
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