What do you think about the ordination of Gay clergy?

[Foreigner]

-- Aspen, sometimes you move directly to the ridiculous and I can't help but laugh outloud.

I never once said arrogance wasn't a sin. (But of course you know that.) If Pride "goeth before a fall," how could it NOT be a sin?

What I DID say was that just because someone thinks another person is arrogant, that doesn't automatically mean that they are.
They have no way of knowing what is in their heart and it could just be the way a person comes across.

Whereas, if someone practicies homosexuality, murder, theft, assault, infidelity, sexual promiscuity, etc......well, it is kind of hard to get that one wrong. ;)

Aspen, I find you incredibly pompous and arrogant, but I bet you would disagree with me. Does my opinion automatically mean that you are?

If we did a poll here and 20 of 25 responders said that you were arrogant would that mean you are?
If the same 20 of 25 said you weren't, would that automatically make it true?

-- Aspen, you making unfounded accusations and then dodging the response is getting tiresome.

 

[aspen]

-- Aspen, you making unfounded accusations and then dodging the response is getting tiresome.

So you get to tell me that you believe I am pompous and arrogant AND that I am making unfounded accusations?

I am not sure what you want from me Foreigner.....honestly!

I am a sinner just like you.

I have been honest that my posts are merely my opinion.

I am catholic, but I am not recruiting anyone.

What do you want?

I am also still interested in your opinion about my pompous and arrogance.,,,,I might start a thread about people's definition of arrogance......interesting subject.

 

[Foreigner]

All I am trying to do is point out that sin is sin. I think some Christians forget that - it is nice to see that FHII and Tom recognize this point. So Foreigner - I would hope that people would reserve judgment of other people's charcter until the met them in real life - especially before hiring them to be a minister. I am imterested in the fact that you view me as arrogant - what constitutes arrogance in your mind?

-- If a person is still a drug user, still an alcoholic, still practices adultery, still engages in sex out of wedlock, still lives an openly gay lifestyle, is it "judging" to feel that until these issues are addressed, they should perhaps hold back on hiring this person as a minister for their church?

I pointed out that arrogance can sometimes be misread in people - unlike drug use, alcoholism, sexual promiscuity, etc.) and you IMMEDIATELY accused me of saying that I am willing to excuse the "sin of arrogance" and and thus hypocritical.

Why don't you define for me YOUR opinion of arrogance?

 

[aspen]

-- If a person is still a drug user, still an alcoholic, still practices adultery, still engages in sex out of wedlock, still lives an openly gay lifestyle, is it "judging" to feel that until these issues are addressed, they should perhaps hold back on hiring this person as a minister for their church?

I pointed out that arrogance can sometimes be misread in people - unlike drug use, alcoholism, sexual promiscuity, etc.) and you IMMEDIATELY accused me of saying that I am willing to excuse the "sin of arrogance" and and thus hypocritical.

Why don't you define for me YOUR opinion of arrogance?

If someone was practicing sin in their lives and applied to be a minister, I would have a lot of questions. First, I would want to know if the person knew the behavior was sinful; if not, I would inform them and let them know that they would have to work on extinguishing the behavior if they wanted to be considered for hire. If the person was aware that Christians viewed the behavior as sinful, but believed that it really wasn't sinful; I would assume that the HS had not convicted them of their sin yet and I would let them know that they were not a good fit for the church community. This includes all sins, including homosexuality.
Leadership in a church requires a person to be self aware; membership in a church, including full participation, doesn't require self awareness. The treatment of homosexuals outside the church is my main concern - I believe they have the right to the pursuit of happiness just like all adult citizens of America.

I do not believe I have ever advocated for practicing homosexuals to be in church leadership. If I have, I misspoke.

I believe I asked you why you are protecting the sin of arrogance/pride in the pulpit, but singling out homosexuality. That is a question not an accusation. I disagree that arrogance is completely subjective - if it was subjective, it could not be called a sin. Also, it would not be a set of behaviors that other people could agree upon. Conversely, I agree with you that their is a subjective quality to arrogance and all personal sin - it is there in order to shed light on the personal sin of the observer - the HS uses it to help convict the observer of personal sin.

My definition of arrogance includes several behaviors that work together to exalt the false self. Name-calling, valuing being RIGHT over perspective-taking, rigid thinking (poor ability to problem solve and perspective-taking skills), speaking over people's head for the purpose of belittling them, leveling (bringing other's down to your level or misrepresenting yourself by exalting your ego to the perceived level of others - boasting and pontificating without the knowledge to back up claims), viewing dissenting viewpoints as personal attacks, dualistic thinking and false dichotomies, speaking as an authority without having authority or others, and valuing the imagine you are portraying over perspective-taking, empathy, mercy, and inclusion.

Not all of the behaviors in isolation or different combinations necessarily add up to arrogance. Also, it is not an exhaustive list of behaviors. The common thread through all behaviors that can be see as arrogant is the exaltation of the false self over others.

 

[Foreigner]

I would agree with everything you said in your lengthy first paragraph.
I think the personal awareness that the candidate has of their life is very important.
He he feels he is living a sinless life, but can't figure out why he can't walk away from 6-8 hours a day on the Internet, I would be concerned (at best) about self-discipline, and (at worst) about addiction.


"I do not believe I have ever advocated for practicing homosexuals to be in church leadership. If I have, I misspoke." - Aspen

-- Nope, you haven't. At least not that I am aware of. I do not remember implying that was a belief of yours.
You have said more than once that you agree with the Bible when it calls homosexuality a sin.
I could not see how you could then advocate an active homosexual for the ministry, and you haven't.



"I believe I asked you why you are protecting the sin of arrogance/pride in the pulpit, but singling out homosexuality. That is a question not an accusation. I disagree that arrogance is completely subjective - if it was subjective, it could not be called a sin." - Aspen

-- That is just it. I have never 'singled out' homosexuality.
I have said more than once it is not better (worse) than any one of a number of other sins.
It doesn't make you MORE of a sinner than someone who commits adultery, theft, assault, etc. Even rumor mongoring and intentionally hurting through lies an deceit.
THOSE are the people I talk about needing to witness to.

And, as I said before, you never witness to a person just because of a specific sin in their life. You witness because they - like you and I were - are lost if they have not given their life to Jesus. You can never murder, steal, rob, rape, assault, sexually molest, sexually compromise, verbally undermine, etc. etc. etc.....but if you haven't given your life to Christ, you are lost. I am not sure why that point isn't coming across.

Anyway, the exact quote of mine that caused you to accuse me of that was, "Arrogance is often in the eye of the beholder. Murder, homosexuality, theft, adultery, sex outside of marraige is not."

There are people I have felt are absolutely arrogant that, when I got to know them, I found them humble and genuine. It was just how they came across.

There have also been people who I felt were genuinely caring and loving....until I saw them in difficult situations or in opportunities where selfishness and self-indulgence cam to light.

As I said a couple of posts ago, of course arrogance (pride) is a sin.

I would agree with almost every bit of the criteria you listed in identifying someone as arrogant.
If those are traits of someone applying for a pastoral position, they should indeed raise major flags because of the damage they could do to the church body.
It also indicates there are areas in their own life that need to be addressed before they are qualified to counsel and direct others on areas in their lives.

There is one "gray area" I would mention. There are indeed people out there that are arrogant and self-loving, and do not see it themselves.
I saw a poster with a picture of William Shatner as the early Capt. Kirk sitting in the captain's chair with a big smile on his face.
The caption underneath read, "I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."

If someone is unaware, they can have it gently pointed out to them and given examples so they can realize for themselves.
If they accept it, begin working on it, and make genuine progress, awesome.
But if they, like some do, resent the implication and get angry, then by that very reaction alone they should realize there are issues to be addressed if you are going to be a pastor.

I still deal with sin in my life. Funny thing...when you ask God to point it out to you, you always expect a much shorter list than you actually get. ;)

 

[aspen]

I would agree with everything you said in your lengthy first paragraph.
I think the personal awareness that the candidate has of their life is very important.
He he feels he is living a sinless life, but can't figure out why he can't walk away from 6-8 hours a day on the Internet, I would be concerned (at best) about self-discipline, and (at worst) about addiction.


"I do not believe I have ever advocated for practicing homosexuals to be in church leadership. If I have, I misspoke." - Aspen

-- Nope, you haven't. At least not that I am aware of. I do not remember implying that was a belief of yours.
You have said more than once that you agree with the Bible when it calls homosexuality a sin.
I could not see how you could then advocate an active homosexual for the ministry, and you haven't.



"I believe I asked you why you are protecting the sin of arrogance/pride in the pulpit, but singling out homosexuality. That is a question not an accusation. I disagree that arrogance is completely subjective - if it was subjective, it could not be called a sin." - Aspen

-- That is just it. I have never 'singled out' homosexuality.
I have said more than once it is not better (worse) than any one of a number of other sins.
It doesn't make you MORE of a sinner than someone who commits adultery, theft, assault, etc. Even rumor mongoring and intentionally hurting through lies an deceit.
THOSE are the people I talk about needing to witness to.

And, as I said before, you never witness to a person just because of a specific sin in their life. You witness because they - like you and I were - are lost if they have not given their life to Jesus. You can never murder, steal, rob, rape, assault, sexually molest, sexually compromise, verbally undermine, etc. etc. etc.....but if you haven't given your life to Christ, you are lost. I am not sure why that point isn't coming across.

Anyway, the exact quote of mine that caused you to accuse me of that was, "Arrogance is often in the eye of the beholder. Murder, homosexuality, theft, adultery, sex outside of marraige is not."

There are people I have felt are absolutely arrogant that, when I got to know them, I found them humble and genuine. It was just how they came across.

There have also been people who I felt were genuinely caring and loving....until I saw them in difficult situations or in opportunities where selfishness and self-indulgence cam to light.

As I said a couple of posts ago, of course arrogance (pride) is a sin.

I would agree with almost every bit of the criteria you listed in identifying someone as arrogant.
If those are traits of someone applying for a pastoral position, they should indeed raise major flags because of the damage they could do to the church body.
It also indicates there are areas in their own life that need to be addressed before they are qualified to counsel and direct others on areas in their lives.

There is one "gray area" I would mention. There are indeed people out there that are arrogant and self-loving, and do not see it themselves.
I saw a poster with a picture of William Shatner as the early Capt. Kirk sitting in the captain's chair with a big smile on his face.
The caption underneath read, "I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."

If someone is unaware, they can have it gently pointed out to them and given examples so they can realize for themselves.
If they accept it, begin working on it, and make genuine progress, awesome.
But if they, like some do, resent the implication and get angry, then by that very reaction alone they should realize there are issues to be addressed if you are going to be a pastor.

I still deal with sin in my life. Funny thing...when you ask God to point it out to you, you always expect a much shorter list than you actually get. ;)

I agree!