New Views on the Rapture

[aspen]

At the end of the day, there is still too much cannot see the forest for the trees. The return is all about Jesus, period. If you know the Scripture, and truly know the Scripture, then you will recognize when these things begin to happen one way or another. You guys know me well, I've backed off of this argument in the past few years. I still very strongly believe that Christ returns after the tribulation, so don't mistake my doctrine; however, there are larger fish to fry. My fish right now happens to be Scripture knowledge, and I want to encourage other believers to be aware of the event Christ talked about many times in his life and Paul deals with in almost every letter he writes - not to mention the entire OT books devoted to the subject.

I agree completely. This subject is far from being the only area of Biblical study that is reduced down so much that the larger meaning is either lost or dismissed. It is a real problem that few people want to look at. Of course exegesis and hermenuetics are import areas of study within Christianity and I am thankful for Protestant advancements in scholarship, but not at the expense of the simple gospel.

 

[rockytopva]

I agree completely. This subject is far from being the only area of Biblical study that is reduced down so much that the larger meaning is either lost or dismissed. It is a real problem that few people want to look at. Of course exegesis and hermenuetics are import areas of study within Christianity and I am thankful for Protestant advancements in scholarship, but not at the expense of the simple gospel.

It was William Branham who came up with the idea of seven church ages (http://www.williambranham.com/), in which I believe to be true.... But the poor man took the idea to the extreme thinking that he was the Angel to the Laodicean church age. A web site credited him as being one of God's generals (http://www.godsgener...n_w_branham.htm) and then goes on to say...

As the glory days of the Voice of Healing revival began to wind down toward 1958, Branham searched for other ways to make his mark. He began teaching from his visions rather than from the Word of God. Not called to be a teacher, Branham began to veer off in extreme directions regarding his interpretation of truth. Disturbing doctrines were taught and emphasized throughout the remainder of his ministry.

So it is with the visions of Revelation... When people think they got it figured out they let their ego rise... And then the simple Gospel goes out the window... In which I also grieve. In which I also find disturbing in Tom Webster in that he thinks he has it all figured out.

 

[tomwebster]

It was William Branham who came up with the idea of seven church ages ...

So it is with the visions of Revelation... When people think they got it figured out they let their ego rise... And then the simple Gospel goes out the window... In which I also grieve. In which I also find disturbing in Tom Webster in that he thinks he has it all figured out.

The church ages you continue to tout are historical types but they are not the Seven Assemblies in Rev 2 & 3. The Assemblies in Rev 2 & 3 are in the startup phase of their existence but are not fully formed yet. If you knew anything about structure in Scripture it would help you understand Rev more also.

 

[veteran]

You indeed would think that if those on the Pre-trib doctrines claim there's so much Biblical proof for it, then they should be able to show an abundance of Scripture support for it, instead of just mouthing slurs and innuendos against those who don't see any proof in God's Word for it.

 

[rockytopva]

The church ages you continue to tout are historical types but they are not the Seven Assemblies in Rev 2 & 3. The Assemblies in Rev 2 & 3 are in the startup phase of their existence but are not fully formed yet. If you knew anything about structure in Scripture it would help you understand Rev more also.

Again, the word assembly you refer to is an ecclesiastical word that Jesus used from Matthew to Revelation. As a matter of fact every word church in the new testament is ekklēsia in the Greek and is used to represent churches... Not assemblies.

So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. - Job 32:1

Webster... I could fill this server up with historical and biblical evidence supporting my views.... But seeing you are intelligent in your own eyes, would do me no good.

 

[aspen]

It was William Branham who came up with the idea of seven church ages (http://www.williambranham.com/), in which I believe to be true.... But the poor man took the idea to the extreme thinking that he was the Angel to the Laodicean church age. A web site credited him as being one of God's generals (http://www.godsgener...n_w_branham.htm) and then goes on to say...

As the glory days of the Voice of Healing revival began to wind down toward 1958, Branham searched for other ways to make his mark. He began teaching from his visions rather than from the Word of God. Not called to be a teacher, Branham began to veer off in extreme directions regarding his interpretation of truth. Disturbing doctrines were taught and emphasized throughout the remainder of his ministry.

You make a good point. Although, I cannot help commenting on the whole seven church framework - as you know, I do not believe it; however, in the spirit of Richard of St. Victor - I do see the value in using scripture to illustrate Biblical truths

 

[TWC]

It was William Branham who came up with the idea of seven church ages (http://www.williambranham.com/), in which I believe to be true.... But the poor man took the idea to the extreme thinking that he was the Angel to the Laodicean church age. A web site credited him as being one of God's generals (http://www.godsgener...n_w_branham.htm) and then goes on to say...

As the glory days of the Voice of Healing revival began to wind down toward 1958, Branham searched for other ways to make his mark. He began teaching from his visions rather than from the Word of God. Not called to be a teacher, Branham began to veer off in extreme directions regarding his interpretation of truth. Disturbing doctrines were taught and emphasized throughout the remainder of his ministry.

So it is with the visions of Revelation... When people think they got it figured out they let their ego rise... And then the simple Gospel goes out the window... In which I also grieve. In which I also find disturbing in Tom Webster in that he thinks he has it all figured out.

So, you believe this man's doctrine even though you know he's a false teacher?

 

[rockytopva]

So, you believe this man's doctrine even though you know he's a false teacher?

Satan was at his time a beautiful, gifted angel. And then his heart was lifted up in pride and he ended up taking the third of the angels with him in rebellion... God's servants do go awry... In which Branhams original vision was good... Until it was mixed with his own arrogance. The same thing happened to Jimmy Swaggert. His original ministry was good until he went out of the Spirit into the flesh.

 

[aspen]

So, you believe this man's doctrine even though you know he's a false teacher?

we still read William Law's The Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life and his other early classic works........and he turned into a new age, nutter, based on his later writings

 

[veteran]

Satan was at his time a beautiful, gifted angel. And then his heart was lifted up in pride and he ended up taking the third of the angels with him in rebellion... God's servants do go awry... In which Branhams original vision was good... Until it was mixed with his own arrogance. The same thing happened to Jimmy Swaggert. His original ministry was good until he went out of the Spirit into the flesh.

Same kind of things that happened to Branham happened to the originators of the Pre-trib doctrines among Edward Irving's church in 1800's Great Britain.

 

[revturmoil]

Hammerstone, you are spot on when you say, "The return is all about Jesus, period."

Those who believe in the pre-Tribulation Rapture will be shocked if it doesn't happen that way, but if they truly are following God they will be there at the end, as well, trusting and struggling.

If Jesus comes before the Tribulations, the post-tribbers will get a pleasant surprise. Hopefully, on the way up to meeting Christ in the clouds they will be apologizing to those the pre-Tribbers they attacked

I'm impressed that anyone would fall for the belief of a pre-trib rapture. If someone can't see through the fabrications and blunders of this false doctrine, then I have no faith that they can figure out any other prophecy or doctrine.

If there is a pre-trib rapture, the most a pre-tribber can say to me is "I told you so." When a pre-trib rapture doesn't occur, pre-tribbers have several issues to confront.

Will they deny we are in tribulation...deny the revelation of the man of sin...deny that prophecy is passing by...because they're 'still here?

Most christian's, both pre and post trib, are waiting for global events that will never come to pass.

There will not be a global dictator, global government, or unified global religion.

The kingdom of the anti-christ is on it's way. The Arab/Islamic world is in apostasy and is politically falling apart. A political vacuum is being created and the man of sin will soon be revealed.

Back to the pipe dream of a pre-trib rapture.

Pre-tribulationist have promoted an extensive case for the false doctrine. Covering up blunder after blunder and fabrication after fabrication. So much so that the average Christian should be able to see it's not true.

BUT!

Since pre-tribulationist say the Lord returns "BEFORE" the tribulation...then surely there must be at least one verse in the entire bible that declares Christ will return "BEFORE" the tribulation!

Can anyone quote a verse where Christ is said to return BEFORE the tribulation???

 

[veteran]

I'm impressed that anyone would fall for the belief of a pre-trib rapture. If someone can't see through the fabrications and blunders of this false doctrine, then I have no faith that they can figure out any other prophecy or doctrine.

If there is a pre-trib rapture, the most a pre-tribber can say to me is "I told you so." When a pre-trib rapture doesn't occur, pre-tribbers have several issues to confront.

Will they deny we are in tribulation...deny the revelation of the man of sin...deny that prophecy is passing by...because they're 'still here?

They will be too busy falling away to worship the false messiah that is to come prior to Christ's true coming, instead of having time to wonder why Christ hasn't come yet during the tribulation.

That's the danger you'll also be in if you don't come to heed God's Word about the first one that comes, i.e., the coming pseudo-Christ, sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

OK wise guy, you make so bold statements in your post, 'Arnie Manitoba' . You said, "The rapture is a factual event predicted in scripture" but let's count the scripture you quoted to back your statement, ZERO! Put up or shut up, 'Arnie Manitoba'. Let's see what you got, 'Arnie Manitoba'. I'm waiting!

So Tom , you dodge the question as usual ..... what happens to the living christian a split second after the Ressurection of the dead christians ?

What do you call it and where do you get your terminology from ? I am all ears. thanks.

ArnieM

 

[Duckybill]

There will not be a global dictator, global government, or unified global religion.

And you say we are deceived.

Revelation 13:7 (NKJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

 

[tomwebster]

So Tom , you dodge the question as usual ..... what happens to the living christian a split second after the Ressurection of the dead christians ?

What do you call it and where do you get your terminology from ? I am all ears. thanks.

ArnieM

I thought someone had answered the questions already.

Does anyone here believe there will be a resurrection some day ??
I expect most would say yes.

At the time of the resurrection , will there be living believers ??
I expect most of us would say yes.

How do they get new bodies similar to the resurrected saints??
What will the Lord do ?? How will He do it ??

Your answers are here, read, you might have to think a little:

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 , For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (G3952 parousia).

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end,(G5056 telos) , when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

You know that “death” is one of the many name of Satan.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
1Co 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened (G2227 zōopoieitai = is made alive) , except it die:

What happens the moment we die?

Eccl 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

These are Hebrew figures of speech describing death.

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The moment we die our soul and spirit return to God

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Now to return to 1 Co 15:

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial (G2032 epourania = Heavenly = spiritual = aēr) bodies, and bodies terrestrial (G1919 epigeia = earthly = flesh ) : but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption (G5356 Phthora = perishable = it will decay ) ; it is raised in incorruption (G861 Aphtharsia = imperishable ) :

Remember verse 40 with the celestial and terrestrial bodies

1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep ( G2837 koimēthēsometha = sleep, fall asleep, die) , but we shall all be changed (G236 allagēsometha = will be transformed) ,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump : for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (G862 aphthartos = From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G5351; undecaying (in essence or continuance) : - not corruptible ) , and we shall be changed.

Last = (G2078 = eschatos = A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end.


1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

….
If the Lord can take a completely decayed , thousand year old body from the grave, and resurrected it to be brand new and eternal ...... do you think He could take a living body and change it as well ???

Nothing comes out of the grave, remember the quote from Eccl 12: 6 -7 and 2Co 5:8 ?

...

If so , what would you call the event of transforming living bodies ???

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This happens at the LAST TRUMP, not some time before the LAST TRUMP.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This 1 Co 15 passage is explained by Paul when he answers the question "Where are the dead?" in 1 Th 4. This passage has been explained to you "rapture" folks many, many times in the last few weeks.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (G5348 = phthasōmen = will precede) them which are asleep.

Why, because the dead are already with God.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (this is the seventh trump) : and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (as in Hebrew 12:1) , to meet the Lord in the air (see 1 Co 15:40 above, this is that celestial (G2032 epourania = Heavenly = spiritual = aēr body) : and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Duckybill]

I don't know about anyone else but I expect my corrupt body to be redeemed also.

Romans 8:22-23 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. [sup]23 [/sup]And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

 

[tomwebster]

I don't know about anyone else but I expect my corrupt body to be redeemed also.

Romans 8:22-23 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. [sup]23 [/sup]And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Ducky, ducky, ducky,
You need some Greek, son, and you need to learn the use of structure in Scripture so you can stay in context. The context is from vs 19 through 25.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption (G629) of our body.

G629 ἀπολύτρωσις , apolutrōsis, From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

You say you want to keep your “corrupt body,” your “flesh body.” Did you not read any of the study on 1 Co 15 above? 1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God ; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 

[Duckybill]

Ducky, ducky, ducky,
You need some Greek, son, and you need to learn the use of structure in Scripture so you can stay in context. The context is from vs 19 through 25.

When did you become a Greek expert, dad?

 

[tomwebster]

When did you become a Greek expert, dad?[/color][/size]

I have been studying Scripture with the Greek and Hebrew for many years. Certainly wouldn't call myself an expert.

 

[Duckybill]

Certainly wouldn't call myself an expert.

So stop condemning others until you are. You are only condemning yourself.