Church Bashing

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Nancy

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Praise The LORD, Sister! :)
There's only one way from down and that's UP. I'll never stop believing in what He say's. It is Him and only him who has brought any of us through life! And boy does life come at us like a tidal wave sometimes; not like we weren't warned!!! But He is The Rock that never, ever changes and is "Faithful and True". Grabbing onto anything at all in this world is like gabbing a handful of sand, think I'll cling to the The Rock...
Praise Him indeed, demons HATE that ;)
ALL the glory to Him.
 

BarneyFife

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There's only one way from down and that's UP. I'll never stop believing in what He say's. It is Him and only him who has brought any of us through life! And boy does life come at us like a tidal wave sometimes; not like we weren't warned!!! But He is The Rock that never, ever changes and is "Faithful and True". Grabbing onto anything at all in this world is like gabbing a handful of sand, think I'll cling to the The Rock...
Praise Him indeed, demons HATE that ;)
ALL the glory to Him.
Psalm 22:3 KJV: But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

Can you believe God inhabits our praises? You can't make this stuff up! :)
 

bbyrd009

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wellll poppet....at this point I don't know (and strange as it might sound, I did have a handle on it at one stage) what to do with the verse in 1 Peter 3:19-20. It does not however give me a basis for the fantastical interpretations put forward. When I am clear on this we will talk again.
"no one comes back from the grave" i bet mostly

plus a little reveal of those who cite it for evidence of an "afterlife"
 

BarneyFife

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wellll poppet....at this point I don't know (and strange as it might sound, I did have a handle on it at one stage) what to do with the verse in 1 Peter 3:19-20. It does not however give me a basis for the fantastical interpretations put forward. When I am clear on this we will talk again.
:)

19. By which. Or, “with respect to which,” “by virtue of which.” Opinion differs as to
whether “by which” refers to “the Spirit” (v. 18) or to the thought of v. 18 as a whole.
Some of those who accept the reading “in spirit in v. 18 (see comment there) hold that
the words “by which” refer back to “spirit,” and interpret v. 19 to mean that between His
crucifixion and resurrection Christ “preached” to the supposed disembodied spirits of the
antediluvians. However, this conclusion does not necessarily follow the adoption of the
reading “in spirit.” Furthermore, the conclusion is entirely unscriptural and must
therefore be rejected (see below under “spirits”).
The following three explanations of this difficult passage are all in harmony with the
general teaching of Scripture on the condition of man in death.
1. “By which” refers back to “the Spirit,” and v. 19 means that Christ preached to the
antediluvians by the Holy Spirit through the ministry of Noah.
2. “By which” refers back to the preferred reading, “spirit,” which is a reference to Christ
in His pre-existent state, a state that, like His post-resurrection, glorified nature may be
described as in “spirit.” Compare the expression, “God is spirit,” RSV (see on John 4:24).
Christ’s preaching was to the antediluvians, “while the ark was a preparing,” and hence
during His pre-existent state. Compare on Heb. 9:14.
3. “By which” refers back to v. 18 as a whole, and v. 19 means that by virtue of His yet
future vicarious death and resurrection, in “spirit,” Christ “went and preached” to the
antediluvians through the ministry of Noah. It was by virtue of the fact that Christ was to
be “put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit” (v. 8) that He formerly
preached salvation through Noah and “saved by water” those who accepted it. Similarly,
it is “by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” that “baptism doth also now save us” (v. 21).
The first of these three explanations is possible if the reading “the Spirit” is accepted
(see on v. 18). The second and third accord more closely with the Greek construction (of
vs. 18, 19), with the immediate context, and with parallel passages elsewhere in the NT.
Also. That is, in addition to “us” (v. 18). The provision made at Calvary to “bring us
to God” was “also” available to the antediluvians. In fact, no other provision has ever
been made for men to escape from the devil’s prison house (see on Acts 4:12).
Went and preached. Emphasis is on the preaching, not on the going. The word
translated “preached” (kērussō) is the usual word for Christ’s preaching while on earth.
For the time when this preaching took place see on v. 20.
Spirits. Gr. pneumata, plural of pneuma “wind,” “breath,” “spirit” (see on Luke 8:55;
cf. on Num. 5:14). Breath is one of the conspicuous characteristics of living beings, and
by a figure of speech (synecdoche), in which a characteristic part of a thing stands for the
whole, pneuma means simply “person.” Compare 1 Cor 16:18, where “my spirit” means
“me,” and Gal. 6:18; 2 Tim. 4:22; etc., where “your spirit”means “you” (cf. Phil. 4:23).
See on Heb. 12:9, 23; cf. Num. 16:22; 27:16. Accordingly, these “spirits” can be
considered living human beings. In fact, the first part of v. 20 apparently identifies them
as people living on the earth immediately prior to the Flood. They were as certainly real,
living human beings as were the the “eight souls” of v. 20.
Some hold that ch. 3:18–20 and ch. 4:6 support the doctrine of an immortal soul and
of consciousness after death, and that during the interval between the crucifixion and the
resurrection Christ descended into Hades, the figurative realm of the dead (see on Matt.
11:23), to preach to disembodied spirits languishing there. But the logic of this view
demands that the “spirits” here referred to be in some sort of purgatory at the time Christ
preached to them and that the purpose of His preaching was to give them a second chance
to be saved and thus to escape from purgatory. But most Protestants who believe that
Peter here teaches the consciousness of man in death would be horrified to accept the
papal doctrine of purgatory and the equally unscriptural doctrine of a second chance.
Those who maintain that Peter here supports their belief in the so-called natural
immortality of the soul must also explain why Christ would be partial to the “spirits” of
dead sinners of Noah’s time and not give to those of other generations a similar
opportunity.
The Scriptures plainly teach that a man must accept salvation in this present life, if at
all, and that his personal probation closes at death (see on Matt. 16:27; Luke 16:26–31;
Rom. 2:6; Heb. 9:27; cf. Eze. 18:24; Rev. 22:12). They also plainly teach that the dead
are not conscious (see on Ps. 146:4; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Matt. 10:28; John 11:11; 1 Thess. 4:13;
cf. on Gen. 2:7; Eccl. 12:7). Accordingly, to make these “spirits” out to be disembodied,
conscious beings able to hear and accept the gospel, contradicts numerous plain teachings
of Scripture. It should be noted that Peter does not say that Christ preached to
disembodied spirits.
To argue that the people of Noah’s day did not have a fair chance to be saved is to
ignore the fact that Noah was “a preacher of righteousness” to his generation (2 Peter
2:5), and that they deliberately rejected the message God sent to them through Noah (1
Peter 3:20, see comment there). “The longsuffering of God” would not have “waited in
the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing” (v. 20) unless those for whom God
waited so patiently were being given an opportunity to believe and to obey.
Prison. Gr. phulakē, “watch,” “guard,” and thus a place where men are watched and
guarded, a “prison.” Whether Peter here speaks literally or figuratively must be
determined by the context. If taken literally, this “prison” would be a place where
departed souls such as the “spirits” of v. 19 are said, by some, to be kept under guard
until their fate has been decided. If taken figuratively, “prison” would refer to the
spiritual state of the “disobedient” “spirits.” For the use of “prison” in the latter sense see
Isa. 4:27; cf. Isa. 61:1; Luke 4:18. How securely the antediluvians were held in the prison
house of sin is evident from Gen. 6:5–13 and from the fact that only eight persons
escaped from it (1 Peter 3:20). None but Christ can set men free from the evil habits and
desires with which Satan shackles them.
 

BarneyFife

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wellll poppet....at this point I don't know (and strange as it might sound, I did have a handle on it at one stage) what to do with the verse in 1 Peter 3:19-20. It does not however give me a basis for the fantastical interpretations put forward. When I am clear on this we will talk again.
:)

20. Sometime. Or, “formerly.”
Disobedient. Gr. apeitheō, “to disbelieve,” “to disobey,” implying deliberate disbelief
and intentional disobedience. The sinners of Noah’s day had enough light to make an
intelligent decision and warranted no second chance. In fact, they were so utterly
“disobedient” that God could no longer tolerate them (see Gen. 6:5–13). Nevertheless,
“the longsuffering of God waited” for them to repent. If God “waited” for them, He will
surely wait as patiently for us.
When. That is, when the “spirits”—the antediluvians—were disobedient and when
“the longsuffering of God waited” for them, “while the ark was a preparing.”
Waited. Gr. apekdechomai, “to wait for patiently.” God longs tenderly for the
repentance of sinners. He is “not willing that any should perish” (2 Peter 3:9).
Days of Noah. See Gen. 6:5–13.
While. See above under “when.”
A preparing. Or, “being built and equipped.”
Eight. See Gen. 7:7.
Souls. Gr. psuchai, “[living] persons” (see on Matt. 10:28).
Were saved. Literally, “brought safely through,” a phrase also used to describe
recovery from illness (see Matt. 14:36) and a successful journey (Acts 23:24). These
eight heeded the message sent by Christ and proclaimed by Noah, God’s “preacher of
righteousness” to that generation (2 Peter 2:5).
By water. Or, “through water.” The very same waters of the Flood, which buried the
“disobedient” sinners of Noah’s day, bore up those within the ark of safety, and thus
preserved their lives. The saving of these eight persons “by water” is the climax of this
rather long parenthesis about the antediluvians, and Peter’s reason for inserting it. The
lesson he draws from their experience is stated in v. 21—as they were “saved by water”
so “baptism doth also now save us.” However, the eight antediluvians and Christians are
alike saved by virtue of Christ’s resurrection from the dead (see on vs. 19, 21), for
otherwise there would be no hope for either group (see 1 Cor. 15:13–23).
 

Brakelite

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Ive even thanked God for for them since He used them to bring invaluable good to me! They meant it for my bad but He meant it for my great good!
You almost can’t believe you just thanked God for them like…did that just come out of my mouth and heart???
Then I would suggest you have forgiven them already. Doesn't take away the pain. You may still be hurting, but that's okay. You want the best for them, they are forgiven.
 
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quietthinker

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Ive even thanked God for for them since He used them to bring invaluable good to me! They meant it for my bad but He meant it for my great good!
You almost can’t believe you just thanked God for them like…did that just come out of my mouth and heart???
you gotta be careful here sbg; you might have a secret admirer carrying on like that!
 

Lambano

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So I died already but nonetheless I still must wriggle on my cross until the day I die? I can’t actually die while I’m here on earth? Why pick up my cross to follow when it’s impossible?

@stunnedbygrace, I should have answered that picking up our crosses while we're here on this earth is part of growing up into our identities as Daughters and Sons of God. For us to keep growing, Father has given His children a continuous challenge. This is an art we pursue, not a goal we expect to accomplish.

But the spell was broken, and I missed the opportunity. And you sounded so happy... :)
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Ive even thanked God for for them since He used them to bring invaluable good to me! They meant it for my bad but He meant it for my great good!
You almost can’t believe you just thanked God for them like…did that just come out of my mouth and heart???

reminds me of “if God be for us who can be against us.”
 
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stunnedbygrace

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what greater distancing from God can there be when wickedness along with those who love it are consumed. Surely that must qualify as outer darkness!

Im sorry, I just don’t get that sense from the three outer darkness verses. I can’t be convinced unless it’s with verses that explain it. I really don’t think they are about annihilation in the lake. It’s kind of funny…I had some agree with me on God being more merciful in the end for unbelievers than the doctrines of men say, in annihilation rather than eternal torture, but when it comes to believers maybe living in outer darkness because they held an unforgiveness on something really awful someone did to them, they’re not as merciful.
 

stunnedbygrace

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@stunnedbygrace, I should have answered that picking up our crosses while we're here on this earth is part of growing up into our identities as Daughters and Sons of God. For us to keep growing, Father has given His children a continuous challenge. This is an art we pursue, not a goal we expect to accomplish.

But the spell was broken, and I missed the opportunity. And you sounded so happy... :)

Yes, the spell was broken for a brief time. It was wonderful. Now we’re back to little hope in His encouragements and not believing we can be utterly free of our cross or our flesh on this earth. It’s all for a future time. We’ve decided. No power now.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Then I would suggest you have forgiven them already. Doesn't take away the pain. You may still be hurting, but that's okay. You want the best for them, they are forgiven.

Actually…how it worked for me, in my particular case, was just before He calmed my passions and put them under me He finally had me to see I was just like everyone else in my inability to change my heart. So I began to have to pity us all for our poverty rather than hurt and anger at what anyone had done to me. So it was after seeing myself in that stark relational light to everyone else, whether a believer or an unbeliever, that my passions were calmed in a split second. So the hurt was gone along with the anger, and I could finally understand: forgive them, don’t hold this against them. And I finally also understood what you loose on earth.
 

Lambano

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Yes, the spell was broken for a brief time. It was wonderful. Now we’re back to little hope in His encouragements and not believing we can be utterly free of our cross or our flesh on this earth. It’s all for a future time. We’ve decided. No power now.
You are so impatient! We have the Spirit as a down payment. We do grow; we do get better; we do have a deferred hope. I can live with that.

3 And not only this, but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:3-5)
 
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Brakelite

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The "handwriting of ordinances",
I can't see any relationship between "handwriting of ordinances" , presumably by human hand on earth, and the books/records in heaven that when opened shall reveal names of the saved and lost, and the deeds of them confirming their condemnation. Those books were not nailed to the cross, not even figuratively.
Hebrews 9:11 KJV
11) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Christ actually replaces the first tabernacle with the tabernacle of His flesh.
Christ is High Priest ministering in Himself? That sounds just too awkward. I see Christ in the Tabernacle, not being the Tabernacle itself.
"Let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them."
God dwelt in the Most Holy Place, and only once a year, after intense preparation, could the high priest enter. With a rope tired to his ankle to drag him outi if he died. Christ, through His perfect redemption, being the offering priest and the sacrifice, tearing down the veil made the way open for us into the presence of the Father. Christ now meditates in the heavenly sanctuary, to which the earthly was a copy.
KJV Hebrews 8:1-2
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man....
KJV Hebrews 8:4-5
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The heavenly sanctuary and the rituals and events pertaining to it, were the pattern for the earthly. We may look to the earthly to understand the heavenly. When we study the earthly Tabernacle, we discover Christ in it... The bread of life... The light... And mediator.
 

stunnedbygrace

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You are so impatient! We have the Spirit as a down payment. We do grow; we do get better; we do have a deferred hope. I can live with that.

3 And not only this, but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:3-5)

Hah! You are too patient! You are so patient that you have accepted a lack of power as your lot in this life!
 
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Lambano

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Yes, the spell was broken for a brief time. It was wonderful. Now we’re back to little hope in His encouragements and not believing we can be utterly free of our cross or our flesh on this earth. It’s all for a future time. We’ve decided. No power now.
Hah! You are too patient! You are so patient that you have accepted a lack of power as your lot in this life!
John Wesley postulated that it was possible for a child of God to achieve "Entire Sanctification" in this life, though he would not claim he himself had achieved it.

Do you believe that this is possible, and that a lack of faith keeps believers from even trying?