Understanding the Trinity.

[Scott Downey]

My friend, Creeds were written by Men. Men whom seek power over other men... not to teach! Creeds were used to justify the murder of fellow Christians whom did not agreed. How many members of the body of Christ were burned at the stake for not believing in the Trinity? Any group and any Doctrine who supports the murder of a fellow human... is of Satan.

In Heaven of the LORD GOD, GOD tells the holy angels to worship Christ,
So why dont you?

Hebrews 1
And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

 

[Pierac]

Even the Holy ANGELS of the LORD GOD worship Christ
Hebrews 1:5-7
New King James Version
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

7 And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

Again...
If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

This is the usual pattern of prayer and worship in the NewTestament. They prayed to the one God through the name or authority of Jesus Christ. They evidently were not aware that the Holy Spirit was God (a third person), for wherein all the pages of the Bible to the Saints pray to the Holy Spirit? And where in all the pages of Scripture do the worshipers of God sing to the Holy Spirit as is the general custom within Christendom today?
What about those passages where the Lord Jesus is worship? Or where the Lord Jesus is pray to?

Surely this is proof positive that Jesus is God because only God is to be worshiped? (The words of Jesus are often used to substantiate this belief: "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve him only" (Matt. 4:10), as though Jesus meant: "I am the Lord your God, worship only me."

But this meaning is totally incongruous and has no parallel in the New Testament record.) Then, of course, there is God the Father's own directive to the Angels concerning Jesus the son of God: "and let all the Angels of God worship him" (Heb. 1:6). The fact that Jesus is worship by Thomas as he falls at his feet and honors him with the confession, "My Lord and my God!" Too many presents the final proof that Jesus is God (John 20:28). To all of this there is a very simple solution. Once again it comes back to a failure to understand biblical culture; a failure to read the Bible through Hebrew eyes. In the Old Testament in main Hebrew word for worship is shachah. It occurs about 170 times but the surprising thing is that only about half of this number relate to the worship of God as God. This fact is hidden in our English translations. The translators prefer to say "bow down to" or "revere" when shachah refers to homage paid to noble persons, whether Angels or men, but say "worship" when God is the object. This is a false distinction the original texts does not support. Here are just a few examples:

Lot "worshiped" the two strangers who looked like normal travelers as they entered Sodom (Gen. 19:1).

Abraham "worshipped" the Gentile leaders of the land where he lived (Gen. 23:7).

Jacob "worshipped" his older brother Esau (Gen. 33:3).

Joseph's brothers "worshipped" him (Gen. 43:26).

Ruth "worshipped" Boaz (Ruth 2:10).

David "worshipped" Jonathan (1 Sam. 20:41).

David "worshipped" King Saul (1 Sam. 24:8).

Mephibosheth fell on his face and "worshipped" David (2 Sam. 9:6).

Abigail "worshipped" David the outlaw (1 Sam 25:23, 41).

The whole congregation "worshipped" the King (1 Chron. 9:20).

These are just a few instances of the many that could be cited to show the reluctance of the translators to consistently translate shachah as "worship" when worship of important persons was obviously a common feature of Hebrew culture. In Scripture worship is offered to God and to
men. There is no special word and the Old Testament for "worship" reserved exclusively for God. But there is a reluctance to translate this one-word consistently. If you looked up your English translations of the above verses you will find that you do not use the "w" word. They prefer to say
"bowed down" or "revered" or "pay homage to" instead of "worshiped." This inconsistency of translation has created the false impression that only God can be worshiped.
So then, how do we explain this in light of the clear command that we are to worship God the Father alone as both the first commandment and Jesus himself command? Is this a contradiction after all? No way. The answer is that whenever men "worshiped" other men it was a relative worship. In most of the examples above it is clear that the ones worshiped were God's representatives. Once again we are back to the principle of Jewish agency. The Israelites had no difficulty in offering this proportional or relative worship to the ones who came in Gods Name, with God's message. It is obvious that the first commandment "You must not bow yourself down [shachah] to them nor serve them" is not a prohibition against a relative worship of those worthy of it. If this was the case then obviously all these Old Testament godly men and women sinned greatly. God even promises a coming day when He will make our enemies "to come and worship at your feet, and to know that I have loved you" (Rev. 3:9). Such worship of the Saints at God's degree is clearly a relative and proportional worship. It is perfectly legitimate to give honor to
whom honor is due. This is why many Jews felt no impropriety in "worshiping" Jesus in the Gospels because they recognized him as a prophet of God, or the Messiah sent from God. But it is preposterous to think these good people believe Jesus was Jehovah God just because they
worshiped him. When they saw and heard the mighty works of Jesus they glorified God through him (Matt. 9:8; 11:27; 28:18; Luke 7:16; 9:11; 10:22). This fits the whole will of the New Testament teaching that it is God the Father who is to receive glory through His son Jesus (Eph. 1:3, 6, 12; 1 Pet. 1:3; Heb. 13:15, etc.). Christ’s exaltation is the means to a higher end. For through him all worship is ultimately directed to God and Father.
To worship him (Jesus) as Lord Messiah is thus a divinely pleasing but subordinate or relative worship. It is instructive to read that in the coming Kingdom the Lord Jesus will orchestrate the worship of his brethren in the ultimate praise of his Father. He will "proclaim" the Name of God to his "brothers" and he will "in the mist of the congregation singing your praise" (Heb. 2:12).

There, in that glorious Kingdom, Jesus Christ will continue to be a joyful worshiper of God his Father. Thus, the one God and Father he is alone worshiped absolutely. All other divinely appointed worship is homage to persons who are not God himself. Jesus is among those worthy
of such worship for he is worshiped as the one Messiah, God's supreme son and agent.

Jesus knew the prophecy: "Worship the Lord with reverence, and… do homage to the Son" (Ps.2: 11-12). Jesus knew God his Father had decreed "Let all the Angels of God worship him" (Psalms 97:7). Jesus knew that the angelic messengers of Jehovah had in the past received
relative worship from God-pleasing men and women. Jesus knew that of the one true God could be addressed as though they were God. And Jesus knew he was the Son and ultimately agent of God, so how much greater his destiny! As the "only begotten Son" whom the father had "sealed" and commissioned he knew that whoever honored him honored the Father also. This was his Father's decree (Psalms 2:11-12; 97:7).

 

[Scott Downey]

Again...
If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

This is the usual pattern of prayer and worship in the NewTestament. They prayed to the one God through the name or authority of Jesus Christ. They evidently were not aware that the Holy Spirit was God (a third person), for wherein all the pages of the Bible to the Saints pray to the Holy Spirit? And where in all the pages of Scripture do the worshipers of God sing to the Holy Spirit as is the general custom within Christendom today?
What about those passages where the Lord Jesus is worship? Or where the Lord Jesus is pray to?

Surely this is proof positive that Jesus is God because only God is to be worshiped? (The words of Jesus are often used to substantiate this belief: "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve him only" (Matt. 4:10), as though Jesus meant: "I am the Lord your God, worship only me."

But this meaning is totally incongruous and has no parallel in the New Testament record.) Then, of course, there is God the Father's own directive to the Angels concerning Jesus the son of God: "and let all the Angels of God worship him" (Heb. 1:6). The fact that Jesus is worship by Thomas as he falls at his feet and honors him with the confession, "My Lord and my God!" Too many presents the final proof that Jesus is God (John 20:28). To all of this there is a very simple solution. Once again it comes back to a failure to understand biblical culture; a failure to read the Bible through Hebrew eyes. In the Old Testament in main Hebrew word for worship is shachah. It occurs about 170 times but the surprising thing is that only about half of this number relate to the worship of God as God. This fact is hidden in our English translations. The translators prefer to say "bow down to" or "revere" when shachah refers to homage paid to noble persons, whether Angels or men, but say "worship" when God is the object. This is a false distinction the original texts does not support. Here are just a few examples:

Lot "worshiped" the two strangers who looked like normal travelers as they entered Sodom (Gen. 19:1).

Abraham "worshipped" the Gentile leaders of the land where he lived (Gen. 23:7).

Jacob "worshipped" his older brother Esau (Gen. 33:3).

Joseph's brothers "worshipped" him (Gen. 43:26).

Ruth "worshipped" Boaz (Ruth 2:10).

David "worshipped" Jonathan (1 Sam. 20:41).

David "worshipped" King Saul (1 Sam. 24:8).

Mephibosheth fell on his face and "worshipped" David (2 Sam. 9:6).

Abigail "worshipped" David the outlaw (1 Sam 25:23, 41).

The whole congregation "worshipped" the King (1 Chron. 9:20).

These are just a few instances of the many that could be cited to show the reluctance of the translators to consistently translate shachah as "worship" when worship of important persons was obviously a common feature of Hebrew culture. In Scripture worship is offered to God and to
men. There is no special word and the Old Testament for "worship" reserved exclusively for God. But there is a reluctance to translate this one-word consistently. If you looked up your English translations of the above verses you will find that you do not use the "w" word. They prefer to say
"bowed down" or "revered" or "pay homage to" instead of "worshiped." This inconsistency of translation has created the false impression that only God can be worshiped.
So then, how do we explain this in light of the clear command that we are to worship God the Father alone as both the first commandment and Jesus himself command? Is this a contradiction after all? No way. The answer is that whenever men "worshiped" other men it was a relative worship. In most of the examples above it is clear that the ones worshiped were God's representatives. Once again we are back to the principle of Jewish agency. The Israelites had no difficulty in offering this proportional or relative worship to the ones who came in Gods Name, with God's message. It is obvious that the first commandment "You must not bow yourself down [shachah] to them nor serve them" is not a prohibition against a relative worship of those worthy of it. If this was the case then obviously all these Old Testament godly men and women sinned greatly. God even promises a coming day when He will make our enemies "to come and worship at your feet, and to know that I have loved you" (Rev. 3:9). Such worship of the Saints at God's degree is clearly a relative and proportional worship. It is perfectly legitimate to give honor to
whom honor is due. This is why many Jews felt no impropriety in "worshiping" Jesus in the Gospels because they recognized him as a prophet of God, or the Messiah sent from God. But it is preposterous to think these good people believe Jesus was Jehovah God just because they
worshiped him. When they saw and heard the mighty works of Jesus they glorified God through him (Matt. 9:8; 11:27; 28:18; Luke 7:16; 9:11; 10:22). This fits the whole will of the New Testament teaching that it is God the Father who is to receive glory through His son Jesus (Eph. 1:3, 6, 12; 1 Pet. 1:3; Heb. 13:15, etc.). Christ’s exaltation is the means to a higher end. For through him all worship is ultimately directed to God and Father.
To worship him (Jesus) as Lord Messiah is thus a divinely pleasing but subordinate or relative worship. It is instructive to read that in the coming Kingdom the Lord Jesus will orchestrate the worship of his brethren in the ultimate praise of his Father. He will "proclaim" the Name of God to his "brothers" and he will "in the mist of the congregation singing your praise" (Heb. 2:12).

There, in that glorious Kingdom, Jesus Christ will continue to be a joyful worshiper of God his Father. Thus, the one God and Father he is alone worshiped absolutely. All other divinely appointed worship is homage to persons who are not God himself. Jesus is among those worthy
of such worship for he is worshiped as the one Messiah, God's supreme son and agent.

Jesus knew the prophecy: "Worship the Lord with reverence, and… do homage to the Son" (Ps.2: 11-12). Jesus knew God his Father had decreed "Let all the Angels of God worship him" (Psalms 97:7). Jesus knew that the angelic messengers of Jehovah had in the past received
relative worship from God-pleasing men and women. Jesus knew that of the one true God could be addressed as though they were God. And Jesus knew he was the Son and ultimately agent of God, so how much greater his destiny! As the "only begotten Son" whom the father had "sealed" and commissioned he knew that whoever honored him honored the Father also. This was his Father's decree (Psalms 2:11-12; 97:7).

You have developed your own interpretation of the scripture. Hebrews 1 is so clear, it should convict you in your soul as you refuse to worship Christ.
You can try and escape into your own theology, but there are these glaring contrary examples I have been showing you. A whole lot of words written is kind of like Jesus warning about those long prayers of the heathens and hypocrites.

 

[Pierac]

You have developed your own interpretation of the scripture. Hebrews 1 is so clear, it should convict you in your soul as you refuse to worship Christ.
You can try and escape into your own theology, but there are these glaring contrary examples I have been showing you. A whole lot of words written is kind of like Jesus warning about those long prayers of the heathens and hypocrites.

You do know I did not write John 4:23-24 "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" Jesus said this... So take it up with Him!

As to Hebrews 1...let's review...

Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God
the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

So what’s this through (dia) about in all these verses???

Through or Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin.
Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek,‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ,through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us

Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He (God) has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

 

[amadeus]

Paul told us... 1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
This verse not only applied to Paul but to us as well. It let's us know we are only allowed a part of God's truth... But what if you seeked out the parts others may know what you do not... If your open... to let go the traditions of men... can you learn the parts from others too? The truth!

1Co 13:10-12 but when the perfect (completion)comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

It would appear... We see the Part that has been given to us by God!
Paul

Amen!

 

[Aunty Jane]

How do we know the Holy Spirit is a person? By what Christ says about Him.
How Do We Know the Holy Spirit Is a Person?

John 16
The Work of the Holy Spirit
5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

I think you need some lessons in Greek grammar. The helper “Paraclete” is masculine gender in Greek so all pronouns will reflect that. The Holy Spirit is not a “he” as in a person, any more than a ship is a “she” as a person.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

John 14:25-31....(ESV) read this now in accord with Greek grammar and you will gain a whole new perspective....

25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, (paraclete) the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. 28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. 30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, 31 but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.”

English is a very convenient language in that its nouns do not have gender arbitrarily and all its articles, “a,” “an,” and “the,” are neuter....but such is not the case with Greek.

It is an odd thing indeed that the trinity has three gods, who speak to each other and can be in different places at the same time, but when God and his son are mentioned together, the third person is invariably missing....like John 17:3 for example, where Jesus identifies his Father as “the only true God” without including himself....or 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 where the apostles identified their “one God” as “the Father” and their “one Lord” as Jesus Christ....but no Holy Spirit is mentioned in either.

Understanding the word “theos” in Greek also adds to the problem of whether Jesus is “God”....or just “divine”. Those with divine authorisation in the Bible are called “gods” which simply identified mighty ones...those with power. All their gods had names.
In Greek they had no word for the one Almighty God of Israel, (whom the Jews refused to identify by name) so they simply identified him with the definite article “ho” (the).
So in John 1:1 read in Greek, you will see two “gods” mentioned but only one is “ho theos” meaning Jehovah.....the other is just “theos” which makes him ‘divine’ (from God) but not ‘deity’. (being God)

A little research without the blinkers is all that is required to see that the trinity is NOT taught in scripture.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In Heaven of the LORD GOD, GOD tells the holy angels to worship Christ,
So why dont you?

Hebrews 1
And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Lessons in Greek needed again....seriously you accuse in ignorance. Try educating yourself a little before you pass judgment on others.

The Greek word for “worship” is “pro·sky·neʹo” which can rightly be rendered as either “worship” when pertaining to God, or as “obeisance” when rendered to humans. The term pro·sky·neʹo is used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (Matthew 18:26) as well as the act Satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Matthew 4:8-9)

When the devil tempted Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for “one act of worship”, what do you think he was asking for?

When the magi visited the child Jesus, did they think he was a “god” and bowed in “worship” to him.....or were they simply honouring a new king and rendering respectful honor as was their custom?

Nowhere did Jesus ever solicit worship for himself. As a man the word could not apply as “worship” because it is only used with regard to God alone. To solicit worship and claim to be God in human form, the Jews would have been able to legally pin a charge of blasphemy on him without any more evidence, but Jesus had to die as an innocent man. He never once committed this blasphemy. (John 10:31-36)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Why are these non trinitarian Christ denying posts not struck down and banned from this subforum??

Because banning a topic that has legitimate arguments against it, is censorship. If something has to be censored it means that someone has something to hide. Open and well supported scriptural defense cannot be silenced nor should it be. People must make their own informed decisions about this very important subject.....how will they do that if the information from both sides is not presented?

 

[GEN2REV]

The Trinity is Biblical, one God, three persons.

Negative.

Not one single human in the history of the world ever read the Bible on their own and came away with an understanding of the trinity, nor learned that it was even a concept in scripture.

It is a doctrine of men that MUST be taught. And even then, it must be FORCE FED those who will struggle to understand it. That's exactly why the cop-out that it CANNOT be understood. They have given up on trying to make sense out of it; it doesn't add up to scripture or any level of reasoning. It's a total FARCE.

God just doesn't work that way. He is not the author of confusion, His concepts are straightforward, and if anything is in question, He defines it, and teaches it, thoroughly with scripture. His entire book repeats, over and over again, that He is ONE individual God, and there is NONE beside Him, on either side. He ALONE is God.

And I'm not JW or any other denomination you will try to chock it up to. I am Bible. Period. Just as Jesus was and always will be.

 

[GEN2REV]

I get yelled at a lot for believing as I do, but I still believe that God is simultaneously a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as my dad was simultaneseously a father, husband, lawyer, son, school board member, bank vice-president, etc.

Your analogy shows that you, like 99.9% of those who accept the Trinity, do not understand the official definition of it by those who define it in Christendom.

You are describing aspects, or roles, of one single individual in the description of your father. Your own statement supports the Biblical position that God is ONE.

The official definition of the trinity states that god is THREE INDIVIDUAL persons.

That's exactly why it is not scriptural. Nowhere does the Bible support that and there are countless verses that state, and describe, otherwise.

 

[Bob Estey]

Your analogy shows that you, like 99.9% of those who accept the Trinity, do not understand the official definition of it by those who define it in Christendom.

You are describing aspects of one single individual in the description of your father.

The official definition of the trinity states that god is THREE INDIVIDUAL persons.

That's exactly why it is not scriptural. Nowhere does the Bible support that and there are countless verses that state, and describe, the opposite.

We might disagree - that doesn't mean I don't understand.

 

[GEN2REV]

We might disagree - that doesn't mean I don't understand.

DO you understand?

Was your father three individual people?

 

[Bob Estey]

DO you understand?

Was your father three individual people?

Yes, I believe I understand. God is the Holy Spirit who communicates with us. Jesus is God in flesh. You might not agree, but what I believe isn't far-fetched.

 

[Scott Downey]

DO you understand?

Was your father three individual people?

Again The Trinity, Those who deny the Trinity, deny Christ as God's divine Son through whom God made all things.

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


Again the Trinity
Romans 1
New King James Version
Greeting
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,

3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,

4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Christ is also called the Rock, and Rock is God the Lord
1 Samuel 2:2 “No one is holy like the Lord, For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.


15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not [g]prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth [h]will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Romans 9:33 As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to
shame.”

1 Corinthians 10 New King James Version Old Testament Examples

10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

1 Peter 2:7-9
New King James Version
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who [a]are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

 

[Scott Downey]

Appearances of Christ in the OT

Joshua 5
The Commander of the Army of the Lord
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”

14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”

And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”

15 Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.

Exodus 3 New King James Version Moses at the Burning Bush, The Angel of the LORD is Christ.
No man in the flesh has seen the face of God, but here Moses sees Christ as God.
and note the command is to take off your sandals for the place where you stand is HOLY GROUND.

3 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”

4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

And he said, “Here I am.”

5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”

6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

 

[Scott Downey]

God with us in the form of Jesus Christ who is in the form of God. they are all of one, yet they are distinct persons.
Philippians 2:5-7
New King James Version

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

 

[Scott Downey]

And the Jews even recognized when Christ made Himself equal with God, it made them very angry to hear that, raving mad so they wanted to kill Christ for what he had said made Him equal with God. The Son gives Life to whom He wills, that makes Christ divine and God.

John 5
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,

23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

 

[GEN2REV]

Yes, I believe I understand. God is the Holy Spirit who communicates with us. Jesus is God in flesh. You might not agree, but what I believe isn't far-fetched.

With patience and respect, ... you are still not making them 3 separate individuals. You are accurately describing them as ONE individual in multiple roles.

If God is the Spirit, and Jesus is THAT Spirit in the flesh, then they are ONE individual person.

Your current understanding does not fit this official declaration of the trinity.

This image, as well as the official written description (also stated in the 1st post of this thread), reveal the trinity to be 3-distinct (separate) persons.

Your own God-given common sense is wrestling with this, Bob. Listen to it.

It makes no sense and it 100% contradicts the full weight of scripture.

 

[GEN2REV]

Again The Trinity, Those who deny the Trinity, deny Christ as God's divine Son through whom God made all things.

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Nope. On the contrary, those who deny the trinity CONFIRM Christ as the ONE True God.

Denying the false doctrine trinity does not deny that God is a spirit (John 4:24) and His Son, Jesus, is the physical embodiment of that Spirit.

There is zero denial of Christ, or the Father, in the exposing of the trinity as a woefully errant doctrine.

That it is.

 

[Scott Downey]

Nope. On the contrary, those who deny the trinity CONFIRM Christ as the ONE True God.

Denying the false doctrine trinity does not deny that God is a spirit (John 4:24) and His Son, Jesus, is the physical embodiment of that Spirit.

There is zero denial of Christ, or the Father, in the exposing of the trinity as a woefully errant doctrine.

That it is.

So you acknowledge Christ as the one true God then.
Which logically then you deny God as the Father separate from the Son.

God and Christ are both coequal and equally mentioned in scripture.

Then there is this in 1 Corinthians 15, speaking of Christ and the Father being distinctly separate.
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.

28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.