Understanding the Trinity.

[Scott Downey]

LOL See how trinitarians are forced to rely on vague verses to support your doctrine?

I believe completely Jesus is the ‘He’ who he explicitly said he was at Mark 14:61-62, ‘I am’ to the question of being not God incarnate but God’s Anointed, the Liberating King,the Son of the Blessed One. VOICE

Of course, trinitarians must rely on the ‘and also’ of duality, denying exclusivity in language usage.

It’s not that you deny Jesus is God’s Anointed. It’s that you assert against all reason he is ALSO the Blessed One who Anointed him. Your doctrine requires you to claim Jesus Anointed himself contrary to Scripture.

John 1
New King James Version
Christ, The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

The Word Becomes Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word was God. your denying Christ was God come in the flesh.

 

[Scott Downey]

Is Jesus Christ God?

1. John 10:30
   I and My Father are one.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. John 17:11
   Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. John 17:21
   that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

 

[Bob Estey]

So recently, it seems we have a lot of just terrible doctrine about the Trinity on here. And while i understand that it can be a confusing doctrine for over thinkers, i do believe its a necessary doctrine for salvation. To help those confused with it, i thought i’d help explain it.

the WCF has this to say about the Trinity;
“ In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.”

so what does this mean?? Well, heres what john calvin had to say;
“We believe and worship the one God whom Scripture proclaims to us. We also conceive Him as He is described to us there, namely of eternal, infinite, and spiritual essence, who alone has the power to subsist in Himself and from Himself, and who bestows it on all creatures. We reject the Anthropomorphites with their corporeal God and the Manicheans with their two gods. Instead, we acknowledge, in the one essence of God, the Father together with His eternal Word and Spirit. When we use this distinction of names, we do not imagine three gods, as if the Father were something other than the Word. In addition, we do not understand these as empty epithets, by the operations of which God is described in different ways. But together with the ecclesiastical writers, in the most simple unity of God, we think that these are three persons [hypostases], that is, substances[subsistentias] that nevertheless consist of one essence [essentia] but are not mingled with each other. And so although there is one God, the Father together with His Word and Spirit, the Father is nevertheless not the Word nor is the Spirit the Word Himself. And the firm testimonies of Scripture are found to support this way of thinking.

still confused?? Lets try this;
“The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.”

“There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.”

i know this is long winded, but i hope it helps.

I get yelled at a lot for believing as I do, but I still believe that God is simultaneously a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as my dad was simultaneseously a father, husband, lawyer, son, school board member, bank vice-president, etc.

 

[Scott Downey]

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Hebrews 1
8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

 

[Wrangler]

The holy spirit is not a person, but the power of God which can be directed to whomever or whatever he wishes.

Agreed. Well said.

 

[Scott Downey]

What indeed do the scriptures tell us....? Do you really need to sound so sanctimonious...?



From Bible study "Short" Case FOR The Triune GodHead!:

13) God Almighty Is The JUDGE Of All!

Well lets have a look then shall we?

1)(A) The Holy Spirit Is The God That "Ananias And Sapphira lied to!"
(Acts 5:3-4 KJB!).

Firstly you can put you beloved KJB away since I do not speak archaic English and neither does anyone I know.
The whole purpose of a translation is to have the Bible in the language you speak.....the KJB is a translation and in todays world should be shelved for the confusion it creates....it does not come directly from God and is a dinosaur for today's readers.

Secondly, the holy spirit that Ananias and Sapphira lied to, was the ability of Peter by means of God's spirit to detect the lie and expose it. If Peter did not have the holy spirit, he would never have been any the wiser.

2)(B) The Holy Spirit IS The God That Raised JESUS CHRIST From The Dead!,
(Romans 8:9-11 cp 1 Corinthians 6:14; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 1 Peter 3:18)
"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11. NASB)
All I needed was one of your cited verses to show you that the holy spirit is NOT God but is possessed by God that can give even mortals the ability to do what is normally impossible.

What about 1 Corinthians 6:14?
"Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power."
Are you reading what I am reading? God raised up the Lord.....is that the same as saying "God raised up God" from the dead?
God's "power" is the holy spirit.

2 Corinthians 4:14...?
"knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will also raise us with Jesus, and will present us with you
Who raised Jesus up from the dead? God did.....by means of his spirit.

The holy spirit is not a person, but the power of God which can be directed to whomever or whatever he wishes.


What????

How about plain English?

[/QUOTE]
How do we know the Holy Spirit is a person? By what Christ says about Him.
How Do We Know the Holy Spirit Is a Person?

John 16
The Work of the Holy Spirit
5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

 

[Pierac]

No, I am afraid we met our fork in the road, I'll just tip my hat to you and be on my way. May God bless you on your journey.

I understand...
Peace and blessings to you!

Paul

 

[Behold]

The only clear, undisputed scripture which speaks of the only true God is Jesus' prayer at John 17:3. And that is that the Father is the only true God.

But on the other hand...

Thomas......upon seeing for the first time....... Jesus RISEN from the Grave.....said.....>"my Lord and my God".
And Jesus, did not correct Him.

And if you read John 1:10, you read that Jesus made the WORLD... the EARTH.....the PLANET.

If you then read Colossians 1:16, you read that JESUS created it ALL.

So, when you come to realize those verses, and others like....>"God manifested in the Flesh"....... then you become aware of Genesis 1:26, when it says..>"Let us make man in OUR Image".....and that is not talking about the angels or the rest of the Host of Heaven.

So, is GOD, the "our image", expressed as ... 3 Distinct ?

Yes.


Listen... is an EGG, the shell, yoke, and the clear fluid? = Yes

Is a "apple pie", the crust, the apples, and the filling? = Yes

Is the Sun......Light, Heat, and UV RAYS? = Yes.


In all these cases, they are ONE, but they are 3. 3 as ONE.....or ONE as 3.

 

[Pearl]

But on the other hand...

Thomas......upon seeing for the first time....... Jesus RISEN from the Grave.....said.....>"my Lord and my God".
And Jesus, did not correct Him.

And if you read John 1:10, you read that Jesus made the WORLD... the EARTH.....the PLANET.

If you then read Colossians 1:16, you read that JESUS created it ALL.

So, when you come to realize those verses, and others like....>"God manifested in the Flesh"....... then you become aware of Genesis 1:26, when it says..>"Let us make man in OUR Image".....and that is not talking about the angels or the rest of the Host of Heaven.

So, is GOD, the "our image", expressed as ... 3 Distinct ?

Yes.

A JW I once spoke to said that they believe that when Thomas said that he was really saying the equivalent of OMG. But we know Jesus is our God.

 

[Pierac]

Should we vote then in order to determine who has God's Truth? If we excluded from the voting all of those who are definitely unbelievers, then make our final decisions in accord with the majority, would we not all be Catholics anew or again?

Is that not absolutely opposed to what Jesus was doing when so many were leaving him? Was he not ready to walk on alone among men if the twelve also decided to walk away?

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67

Would it not be better to walk all alone and be on God's side than to go with the crowd away from Jesus?

Paul told us... 1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
This verse not only applied to Paul but to us as well. It let's us know we are only allowed a part of God's truth... But what if you seeked out the parts others may know what you do not... If your open... to let go the traditions of men... can you learn the parts from others too? The truth!

1Co 13:10-12 but when the perfect (completion)comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

It would appear... We see the Part that has been given to us by God!
Paul

 

[Pierac]

But on the other hand...

Thomas......upon seeing for the first time....... Jesus RISEN from the Grave.....said.....>"my Lord and my God".
And Jesus, did not correct Him.

And if you read John 1:10, you read that Jesus made the WORLD... the EARTH.....the PLANET.

If you then read Colossians 1:16, you read that JESUS created it ALL.

So, when you come to realize those verses, and others like....>"God manifested in the Flesh"....... then you become aware of Genesis 1:26, when it says..>"Let us make man in OUR Image".....and that is not talking about the angels or the rest of the Host of Heaven.

So, is GOD, the "our image", expressed as ... 3 Distinct ?

Yes.


Listen... is an EGG, the shell, yoke, and the clear fluid? = Yes

Is a "apple pie", the crust, the apples, and the filling? = Yes

Is the Sun......Light, Heat, and UV RAYS? = Yes.


In all these cases, they are ONE, but they are 3. 3 as ONE.....or ONE as 3.

Repost...
There you go, an Apostle refers to Jesus as God. When you look at some verses in the Old and New Testament you have to remember to look at them with a Hebrew or Greek mind of that period, and not a 20th century mind. Some language can mean something to us that it did not mean back then. For example, if an Englishman says, "I am mad about my flat" he means that he is exited about his apartment. To an American, that same phrase means that he is angry about his flat tire. The word "God" for example, means to us in the 20th century "The Almighty God." To a Jew it did not necessarily mean "Almighty God." In Psalms 82: 1 & 6 God refers to earthly rulers as gods. This is the same passage that Jesus quotes to the Jews when they accuse him of saying that he is God. Paraphrasing Jesus, he says to them; "If it is okay to call men gods, why is it blasphemous for me to say that I am the Son of God"(John 10: 33 - 38). Notice how when Jesus is accused of being God, he quickly corrects them that he is not God, but the Son of God. In 2 Corinthians 4: 4 Satan is also called the "god of this age." Does that mean that he is God Almighty? Of course not!

John even tells us just 3 verses later why he wrote about Thomas story… In John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. If Thomas was really calling Jesus GOD almighty then John just contradicted why he wrote his writings.

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church points out what an early Christian father, Origen (185-254 AD) says about the word "God." "The Son is theos (God), but only the Father is autotheos" (absolute God, God in himself).

This is the reason there is an Almighty God or a Most High God, in order to differentiate the only true God from the others. Another fact to consider when approaching this verse is to understand whom John believes God and Jesus to be.

John wrote his gospel to testify that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. Let us take a look again at what John believes in order to not take one verse and unjustly imply a certain belief on John.

John 17:3

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Revelation 1:6

"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father"

John 20:17

"But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’"

Remember that John’s whole purpose for writing his Gospel is to prove that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, not God.

"But these are written that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God" (John 20: 31).

We must keep John's reason for writing his gospel fresh in our minds as we try to understand this verse. In his gospel, John distinguishes completely between the only true God and Jesus Christ To imply that John believed in a three in one God would be to do a terrible injustice to John.

So what does Thomas mean? To us in the modern world it might at first seem odd, but when you put yourself in Thomas’s place as a Jew in Jesus’ day, it will make all the sense in the world.

The Catholic New American Bible defines this usage of the word god:

"The king, in courtly language is called god, representing God to the people."

Aspects of Monotheism states: "god" is an allegorical equivalent for "king."

This is the definition of the Messiah. The Messiah is the king of Israel who represents God to the people (John 1:49). Thomas was just stating that fact. When he saw Jesus resurrected, it proved to him that He was indeed the Messiah. Thomas’ statement is the equivalent of saying, My Lord and my king. This is not just my opinion; it is easily verified in the Old Testament. Remember, God = king = Messiah.

This kind of language was common in those days. Let’s look at a similar verse.

1 Samuel 24:9 states:

"David also stepped out of the cave, calling to Saul, "My lord and my king."

My lord and my God = My lord and my king.

This verse mean the same thing. Thomas is addressing the king of Israel in exactly the same way that David did. You just have to speak like a first century Jew.

Luke 2:11 states:

"A savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord."

Acts 2:36 states:

"God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Lord and Messiah = Lord and king = Lord and God.

There is for me one great proof that Thomas did not mean Jesus is Almighty God when he called Jesus God. When Thomas called Jesus "My lord and my God " all the Apostles were in the room. If this statement is true, then it is logical to assume that from now on, all the Apostles know that Jesus is really God. So from that point onward Jesus should be addressed as God. But as you can see in all the writings of the New Testament, none of the Apostles ever refer to Jesus as Almighty God or YHWH . Not once in the entire New Testament do they ever pray to Jesus. They make clear distinctions between the two. They in fact write about the God of Jesus Christ (John 20:17). Remember, "No one has ever seen God" (1 John 4: 12). Same author.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So why is it sad that we non-trinitarians don't believe what you believe....? If we are saved anyway because we are "believers"....what are you saying?

Sad for the HS, JC, JW's and me too.
Go back and look, I am not going to repeat many pages.
It is my opinion that the Holy Spirit is grieved? Tell me, how can a force be grieved? You must have feelings to grieve. Feelings are generated from thoughts and therefore the Spirit has a mind, will and emotions. By refering to Him as a force is sad for Him and you since you cannot really have a relationship with a force.
You do not worship Jesus BECAUSE you think he is Michael and we are not supposed to bow down and worship angels. That is sad for Jesus and you. You are depriving Him of worship and yourself of that joy and honor. But when He returns, you will bow your knee to Him.
Your organization deprives you of many freedoms and experiences that I have discussed already but will add this too: relationships with the Body of Christ. You would not call anynone of us (2.6 billion) brothers or sisters. Instead you bash all of Christendom, you put up a wall around your organizatiin and play nice with each other as if it was a private party. I have sat in your meetings and your elders stand up there and bash Christendom outside of your organization and their concluding message would be: "So you see, we are not like them
... we don't do those things ... stay away ... do not go to their churches, it is a sin ... they are being led ny Satan!"
The pride of them to say they are the true church and look down on the rest of us is a pat on their backs and a firm underlying message NOT to be with the OPPOSERS. We are all sinners! This is an utter lack of humility. I have heard them bash Billy Graham. So the entire Body of Christ is viewed as lost and ruled by Satan to the JW's- that is VERY SAD.
But you are also depriving yourself of rich relationships with us. You are like the orthodox Jews who will not marry a lowly gentile. So if there are no available candidates in your congregation or one's close by, you just have to wait or just settle with who is available. I know someone who took 20 years to find a husband. I have two JW nephews, one is 18 and has lived a very sheltered life, prohibited from going anywhere by himself. He can't even walk to the store without Mommy. He has never had a girlfriend. His brother, 23, had one girlfriend years ago and has not shown interest since -he just works and plays video games. It is not normal and sad that since there are no JW girls in the congregation available or even interesting, he remains with no options.
That is sad. Getting involved outside your JWorg would be considered unequally yoked - and therefore a taboo.

How are we not sure of our salvation? We are as sure as Paul was....

I have asked them and they are not sure. I am ... been sealed by the Holy Spirit. I am a new creature, born again. You don't seem to understand that concept.

Brothers and sisters, I do not regard myself as having taken hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 3:13-14)

He is saying he hasn't fully apprehended the actual prize yet. We see dimly, we do not know what we will be like (our resurrected bodies). We will be like Him. Still I haven't seen His resurrected body. And btw, the JW also do not believe in His ressurection as both body and spirit. Heck you don't believe we have an invisible soul/spirit. You think the body dies and then you go out of existence and Sheol, just a grave. What you thinkbas your spirit is also a force and maybe just the remmance of you goes back to God in His mind. That is a false doctrine.

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." (James 2:19

The demons do not believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose on the third day so that they can be saved.

What does it mean to "believe" then?

Heb. 11:1 It is a certainty of your salvation you are convinced that you are saved, NOT that maybe you will be. All that Jesus promised is fixed state of awareness, a peace comes with it. It is a sureness of all that He accomplished and promised. This is the peace that He gives us. NOW there is no comdemnation.

But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless?".....so we need both

These works are generated by the Holy Spirit, Who has prepared works for us to do. This can be identified as FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT. That is all James was saying, that we should see a changed heart in a person, a person who before was sinful and evil, now is loving and giving. Fruit does take time to grow. But God gets the credit for all that is good. We can do nothing without Him.

What is this "other side" of which you speak? There is no "other side". There is just life or death

We live in the physical world, and the spiritual as well. But we can't see heaven nor what we will be like. Or Paradise reborn on earth during the Millennial Kingdom. Either Paradise on earth or heaven above is the other side.

The resurrection which Jesus preached and performed was a restoration of life, not a continuation of it in the spirit realm for the vast majority of humankind.

Really? So do you believe that when a person dies, they go to the grave, don't really exist anymore -only in God's mind; and then at the end of time, the resurrection is just a restoration of their original body? I don't think so. I don't want this body, I WANT AN ETERNAL multi-dimensional spiritual body that never gets sick or ages. This body has been cursed with death - every cell and organ. There again ... more bad theology taught by the JW prophets in Brooklyn ... or have they moved yet?

Paul.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...NASB
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

This is what will soon take place. But there are spirits/souls (that have passed away) in heaven now waiting to receive their new eternal bodies that will be like Jesus. These are multi-dimensional bodies, able to appear in physical form as Jesus did and disappear, ascend and descend. He did this after His resurrection. He wasn't with them physically for the whole 40 days, He just selectively appeared in different locations ten times. In other words, he passed right through the walls in the upper room spiritually and materialized in bodily form to His disciples. He didn't stay with them the whole time. He didn't walk to Gallilee ti meet them either, which is a three day journey -about 62 miles. He spiritually flew there and then materialized in physical form.

There is order in the resurrection, but most people have no idea that this is how it takes place. No one was to go to heaven until Christ's return. Which means that all were "sleeping" in their graves all this time.....Its right there in the scriptures. There is no "other side".

What about Moses and Elijah who appeared on the mount of tranfiguration with Jesus? Where did they come from? What about Enoch? He was taken by the Lord. Gen. 5:24. What about Stephen who when he was stoned to death asked the Lord to receive his spirit? His spirit was a born again spirit, the perfected indivisible person who Stephen was: mind, will emotions, personality without the flesh where sin wells. It is the perfected you - that never dies.
Paul said, " We are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord"(2 Cor. 5:8) And he so desired to be with the Lord but had to remain (on earth, in his body) to accomplish his task.
When we die, we go (and I mean our perfected new spiritual creature, that is our perfected selves) to be with the Lord - within moments. We don't die spiritually, just physically. That is what Jesus overcame for us, spiritual death.

 

[Behold]

A JW I once spoke to said that they believe that when Thomas said that he was really saying the equivalent of OMG. But we know Jesus is our God.

Ive no doubt they said that..
Ie no doubt that when Jesus came out of the Tomb........Satan had a "OMG" moment, that has continued now for quite a while.

 

[Behold]

Repost...
There you go, an Apostle refers to Jesus as God. When you look at some verses in the Old and New Testament you have to remember to look at them with a Hebrew or Greek mind of that period, "No one has ever seen God" (1 John 4: 12). Same author.

I think the verse is pretty clear.
Thomas kneeled and spoke, and the verse is accurate.

And, no one has seen God as the First Person, but God manifested in the Flesh, as JESUS, has been seen.
The apostles said they saw him, and put their hands on Him.
500+ saw Him after God rose from the Dead. THat is God The Son... the one who created the world in John 1:10.
OR, this is better understood as God the Father, creating thought the WORD who is later Jesus manifest in the Flesh.
At that time of Creation, He was pre-incarnate as the WORD., which is explained in Genesis as "our image"......Let us make man in OUR Image".....
Later, the WORD was made FLESH and "dwelt among us".. And that is God, as Christ Jesus who Thomas acknowledged as "God and Lord".
I do the same.
All believers should.
And of course we realize that when we pray to the Father, we are not praying to Jesus.
And when we say....."Jesus help me, we are not talking to the Father".
We understand that when Jesus said...>"not my will, but yours"..>>He was not talking to Himself......but, when He told the Pharisees, "before Abraham was, I AM"...we know that He is referring to Himself, and we know that "I AM" is God's term for Himself....>He used this in the "burning bush", when talking to Moses.

 

[Scott Downey]

Repost...
There you go, an Apostle refers to Jesus as God. When you look at some verses in the Old and New Testament you have to remember to look at them with a Hebrew or Greek mind of that period, and not a 20th century mind. Some language can mean something to us that it did not mean back then. For example, if an Englishman says, "I am mad about my flat" he means that he is exited about his apartment. To an American, that same phrase means that he is angry about his flat tire. The word "God" for example, means to us in the 20th century "The Almighty God." To a Jew it did not necessarily mean "Almighty God." In Psalms 82: 1 & 6 God refers to earthly rulers as gods. This is the same passage that Jesus quotes to the Jews when they accuse him of saying that he is God. Paraphrasing Jesus, he says to them; "If it is okay to call men gods, why is it blasphemous for me to say that I am the Son of God"(John 10: 33 - 38). Notice how when Jesus is accused of being God, he quickly corrects them that he is not God, but the Son of God. In 2 Corinthians 4: 4 Satan is also called the "god of this age." Does that mean that he is God Almighty? Of course not!

John even tells us just 3 verses later why he wrote about Thomas story… In John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. If Thomas was really calling Jesus GOD almighty then John just contradicted why he wrote his writings.

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church points out what an early Christian father, Origen (185-254 AD) says about the word "God." "The Son is theos (God), but only the Father is autotheos" (absolute God, God in himself).

This is the reason there is an Almighty God or a Most High God, in order to differentiate the only true God from the others. Another fact to consider when approaching this verse is to understand whom John believes God and Jesus to be.

John wrote his gospel to testify that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. Let us take a look again at what John believes in order to not take one verse and unjustly imply a certain belief on John.

John 17:3

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Revelation 1:6

"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father"

John 20:17

"But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’"

Remember that John’s whole purpose for writing his Gospel is to prove that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, not God.

"But these are written that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God" (John 20: 31).

We must keep John's reason for writing his gospel fresh in our minds as we try to understand this verse. In his gospel, John distinguishes completely between the only true God and Jesus Christ To imply that John believed in a three in one God would be to do a terrible injustice to John.

So what does Thomas mean? To us in the modern world it might at first seem odd, but when you put yourself in Thomas’s place as a Jew in Jesus’ day, it will make all the sense in the world.

The Catholic New American Bible defines this usage of the word god:

"The king, in courtly language is called god, representing God to the people."

Aspects of Monotheism states: "god" is an allegorical equivalent for "king."

This is the definition of the Messiah. The Messiah is the king of Israel who represents God to the people (John 1:49). Thomas was just stating that fact. When he saw Jesus resurrected, it proved to him that He was indeed the Messiah. Thomas’ statement is the equivalent of saying, My Lord and my king. This is not just my opinion; it is easily verified in the Old Testament. Remember, God = king = Messiah.

This kind of language was common in those days. Let’s look at a similar verse.

1 Samuel 24:9 states:

"David also stepped out of the cave, calling to Saul, "My lord and my king."

My lord and my God = My lord and my king.

This verse mean the same thing. Thomas is addressing the king of Israel in exactly the same way that David did. You just have to speak like a first century Jew.

Luke 2:11 states:

"A savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord."

Acts 2:36 states:

"God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Lord and Messiah = Lord and king = Lord and God.

There is for me one great proof that Thomas did not mean Jesus is Almighty God when he called Jesus God. When Thomas called Jesus "My lord and my God " all the Apostles were in the room. If this statement is true, then it is logical to assume that from now on, all the Apostles know that Jesus is really God. So from that point onward Jesus should be addressed as God. But as you can see in all the writings of the New Testament, none of the Apostles ever refer to Jesus as Almighty God or YHWH . Not once in the entire New Testament do they ever pray to Jesus. They make clear distinctions between the two. They in fact write about the God of Jesus Christ (John 20:17). Remember, "No one has ever seen God" (1 John 4: 12). Same author.

I don't know if you worship Jesus Christ, do you?
Or do you consider Christ an idol.

 

[Pierac]

Well lets have a look then shall we?

1)(A) The Holy Spirit Is The God That "Ananias And Sapphira lied to!"
(Acts 5:3-4 KJB!).

Firstly you can put you beloved KJB away since I do not speak archaic English and neither does anyone I know.
The whole purpose of a translation is to have the Bible in the language you speak.....the KJB is a translation and in todays world should be shelved for the confusion it creates....it does not come directly from God and is a dinosaur for today's readers.

Secondly, the holy spirit that Ananias and Sapphira lied to, was the ability of Peter by means of God's spirit to detect the lie and expose it. If Peter did not have the holy spirit, he would never have been any the wiser.

2)(B) The Holy Spirit IS The God That Raised JESUS CHRIST From The Dead!,
(Romans 8:9-11 cp 1 Corinthians 6:14; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 1 Peter 3:18)
"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11. NASB)
All I needed was one of your cited verses to show you that the holy spirit is NOT God but is possessed by God that can give even mortals the ability to do what is normally impossible.

What about 1 Corinthians 6:14?
"Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power."
Are you reading what I am reading? God raised up the Lord.....is that the same as saying "God raised up God" from the dead?
God's "power" is the holy spirit.

2 Corinthians 4:14...?
"knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will also raise us with Jesus, and will present us with you
Who raised Jesus up from the dead? God did.....by means of his spirit.

The holy spirit is not a person, but the power of God which can be directed to whomever or whatever he wishes.


What????

How about plain English?

How do we know the Holy Spirit is a person? By what Christ says about Him.
How Do We Know the Holy Spirit Is a Person?

John 16
The Work of the Holy Spirit
5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.[/QUOTE]

When reading in Exodus awhile back, I came upon the phrase "the finger of God." I was aware that the same phrase was used in the book of Luke regarding the method Jesus uses to cast out demons. I decided to do a phrase study using e-Sword. The following information is from my research.

Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven…
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
I had also come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of God the Father.
Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one Matthew and one in Luke.
Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Likewise, when you connect to Matthew 10:20 with Luke 12:12 you get an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of the Father. There is no separate being called the Holy Spirit. Again that's why the Holy Spirit is never worshiped, prayed to, or has a seat on a throne.

 

[Scott Downey]

Many scriptures attest to people worshipping Christ and only God can be worshipped in scripture.
Link to the word worship and you will see many verses of people worshipping Christ.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: worship
John 9:37-39
New King James Version
37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”

38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.

39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”

Even a demon possessed man worshipped Christ. Here it is the demon speaking to Christ.
Mark 5:5-7
New King James Version
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones.

6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. 7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore[a] You by God that You do not torment me.”

 

[Scott Downey]

How do we know the Holy Spirit is a person? By what Christ says about Him.
How Do We Know the Holy Spirit Is a Person?

John 16
The Work of the Holy Spirit
5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

When reading in Exodus awhile back, I came upon the phrase "the finger of God." I was aware that the same phrase was used in the book of Luke regarding the method Jesus uses to cast out demons. I decided to do a phrase study using e-Sword. The following information is from my research.

Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven…
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
I had also come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of God the Father.
Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one Matthew and one in Luke.
Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Likewise, when you connect to Matthew 10:20 with Luke 12:12 you get an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of the Father. There is no separate being called the Holy Spirit. Again that's why the Holy Spirit is never worshiped, prayed to, or has a seat on a throne.[/QUOTE]

Your simply proving the Trinity of God in those verses.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Many scriptures attest to people worshipping Christ and only God can be worshipped in scripture.
Link to the word worship and you will see many verses of people worshipping Christ.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: worship
John 9:37-39
New King James Version
37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”

38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.

39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”

Even a demon possessed man worshipped Christ. Here it is the demon speaking to Christ.
Mark 5:5-7
New King James Version
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones.

6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. 7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore[a] You by God that You do not torment me.”

wait…. You’re saying not to worship Jesus???

 

[Behold]

There is no separate being called the Holy Spirit..

The Holy Spirit is the Spirt of God or the Spirit of Christ.
On the day of Pentecost, Acts 2, the Comforter came.....this is the Holy Spirit, that is the Spirit of God.

A born again believer has become the "temple of the Holy Spirit"...

Paul said...>"do you not know that that Holy Spirit is in you".

So, this is God's Spirit, which raised Jesus from the dead and is given to everyone, when they are born again.
In fact, its the Spirit of God that causes the Spiritual Birth, or, to be born again.
When a person is born again.......The Holy Spirit, birth's (regenerates) a person's spirit......and this becomes "One with God". or one with God's spirit.
Spiritual Union. = "In Christ".
When Jesus tells you that you "must be born again".....that is what he is talking about.