Jehovah is either God or He is not, correct?

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Robert Gwin

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Don't you just love it when he calls every other Bible altered except for his?

NWT done in 1950? Why that was ages ago. I wasn't even born yet.

Usually if one thing is made, and another thing is made after it that is like it, but not completely like it--that is the altered one.

Again Cassy, truth is truth, if a Bible is altered, it should be easy to seem being that we live in the time of the fulfillment of Daniel 12:4. Are you able to see the deliberate alteration of Ps 110:1 in many versions of the Bible maam?

The fact is either what I say is truth or it is not. You need to prove it to yourself however. I certainly am far from being perfect in my understanding as well, but some things are easily seen with just a little effort.
 

Cassandra

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Altered from what, and when?
What was the true then? Please quit calling me ma'am. Sounds like you are speaking snotz to me
 

JohnPaul

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Jehovah is God the Father and Jesus Christ his only begotten Son, two separate entities.

Why else would he refer to Jehovah as his father if he and Jehovah are one in the same.

Really easy to understand.
 

David H.

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Amen!

Would not Jesus to God perhaps be more like Joseph to Pharaoh?

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou." Gen 41:40

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." John 14:28

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8) This verse is Jehovah Speaking.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:5) This is Jesus Speaking...

Now either Jesus is usurping the authority of Jehovah here, or He is Jehovah in Human form....

Once Judas Iscarriot (Satan possessed) leaves the presence of the Apostles in John 13, in what is known as the upper room discourse (John 13-17), Jesus reveals his true nature to the Apostles who knew him as the Christ, the Son of the living God up until that time. the culmination of this comes when He says "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9) Showing He is the "I AM" of the Old Testament and that this belief is the very essence of the Gospel to be preached upon his fulfillment of the New Covenant by His blood which would commence after his death and resurrection.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Of course we deny Jesus rose bodily. We do not teach he reneged on the sacrifice. We fully recognize that we were redeemed by the sacrifice of Jesus' flesh and blood. Luke 22:19,20. We are further aware that Jesus returned to heaven, where flesh and blood cannot go. We are also aware that the Bible states Jesus was raised a spirit (1 Peter 3:18) . . .For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

A fact I found interesting as well, were you aware that Jesus wasn't given full control of holy spirit until after he returned to heaven? Acts 2:33 I really found that interesting when I first seen it.


See you choose a mans opinion over the word of God. I listed for you on another thread that it is the blood needed for the forgiveness of sins. Even the word resurrection (ana stasis) standing again, requires Jesus physical resurrection! Once again you deny Gods Word to adhere to a man made organizations slick philosophy!

If Jesus was stood up again(resurrected-anastasis) what was laid down? Did Jesus die and invisible spirit creature? Did Jesus die as Michale? of did Jesus die as messiah? what was laid down? Was Jesus spirit laid down in the tomb?
 
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Ronald Nolette

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On this point we agree Ronald, but likely have a different understanding of the word Divine. We believe all spirit beings are Divine in nature sir, but not equally, which I gather you don't really think either since you stated the Father is above all, then comes Jesus, which we are in complete agreement of. There is an organized class structure in heaven 1 Cor 11:3; Job 1:6

So you are like mormnons in that all spirit being are god like.

Once again you deny the plain teaching of Scripture to accept a man made sects opinion!

Angels do not have the same essence as God, they are angelic not divine.

Jesus is not angelic but divine! Whatever nature god the Father has, God the son has.

Titles given to jesus by God the Father inspiring them.

Elohim
Jehovah of Hosts- Isaiah 44
Jevohah our righteousness- Jer. 23:6. Jer. 33:16
Mighty god Is.
Father of eternity.
First and last: Isaiah and rev.
God John, Timothy.

Yet the watchtrower cannot exalt him and redefines the terms.
 

Wrangler

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I didn't say that. We are all suffering servants and many are anointed. All the prophets were.
I sad only God could become sin - as in take all the sins of humanity upon himself and wash them away. It takes omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience to accomplish that.

You did say that and are denying the agency of God and his long track record of delegating his work to his servants, such as the man Jesus.

The Bible explicitly says the man Jesus and never says the God Jesus. This means nothing to you.
 

Wrangler

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So you are like mormnons in that all spirit being are god like.

And that offends you? In the dichotomy of ultimate reality, there is heaven and Earth. God is in heaven, right? Where are other Spirit beings? Also in heaven.

Man is not in heaven but Earth.

In this way spirit being are god like without being God.

Angels do not have the same essence as God, they are angelic not divine.

Indeed, angels are divine as all heavenly being (Elohim) are. However, neither they nor Jesus are deity. From Definition of DIVINE

Essential Meaning of divine
1 : relating to or coming from God or a god

Only God is a deity. Jesus is not a deity but is said to be 'of God.' (That is, the son of God). If one is 'of God' one cannot be God. This is how you know Jesus is divine but not the deity, who he is of.

Jesus is not angelic but divine!

Agreed.

Whatever nature god the Father has, God the son has.

This is demonstrably untrue. It is sad when people advance their doctrine in the face of demonstrable facts.
  1. No one has seen God but people have seen Jesus.
  2. Jesus is of God but God is not 'of Jesus.' Sons come from their Father's. Father's don't come from their sons.
  3. God is eternal. Jesus died.
  4. Jesus asked God for the cup to be taken from him. God did not ask Jesus for his cup to be taken from him.
  5. God sent Jesus. Jesus did not send Jesus.
  6. God told Jesus what to say. Jesus did not tell God what to say.
  7. God gave his only begotten son. Jesus did not give God.
One other point you must know. God is equated to the Father alone in Scripture. Scripture explicitly states 'God the Father.' There is not one single instance in Scripture of Jesus being referred to that suits your doctrine, 'God the Son.' This disqualifies your claim Whatever nature god the Father has, God the son has.
 

Wrangler

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Are you a Christian Scientist?

No.

You quoted a Christian Scientist in one of your posts which is why I ask.

I did? Who was that? To be honest, I don't know what a Christian Scientist is but it sounds good.

All the Christians I know would never do such a thing.

You hang with an intolerant lot eh?

On the radio today going to the gym a church ad said one does not have to make themselves perfect to go to their church. It seems like you go the other kind of church, where the non-scientists hang.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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I did? Who was that? To be honest, I don't know what a Christian Scientist is but it sounds good.
In the thread, ‘Question: What convinces you that the Bible is from God’, post # 65 you wrote:

"Well, the evidence I am talking about is not prophetic signs but things like The Signature in the Cell and human DNA being 4D of information. A famous atheist recently came out in changing his mind about the existence of God because of this undeniable evidence that points to an Intelligent Designer.

It really is an exciting time to be a Christian scientist."

Did you just mean a scientist who is a Christian?
Can't find the Christian Scientist quoted, maybe someone else did. If you say, you are not one, than that's okay with me.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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No sir, that was not the name Jehovah gave to Moses as being His name, you cut Him off. He gave Moses His name 1 verse later, and told Moses that would be His name forever. Am I in error Ron, or is that what the Bible really teaches? I Am was one of His qualities He was going to demonstrate to Pharaoh sir, not His name.
I didn't cut off scripture, I am well aware that He said He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That identifies Him but doesn't name Him. He gave Moses an introduction to the Great "I AM" that would later be filled in: I am the way, I am the bread, I am the Good Shepherd, I am the resurrection and the life, I am the Door, I am the Vine, etc. The whole book of John is about Jesus deity. You are in denial if you cannot see that. No one can claim the things that Jesus did and not be God. "I am the Life". The creator of Life. I am the Way. We would except that a prophet would point to God and not himself. He would not take credit for anything - NOR WOULD AN ANGEL TAKE CREDIT. GOD ALWAYS RECEIVES THE CREDIT. If Jesus was not God, we would not be obeying Him at all. He would have instructed us to obey His Father. He would have instructed us to put our faith in our FATHER (and we do and pray to Him) but Jesus commands us to obey, believe in Him for eternal life, put our faith in Him. He is our FOCUS. WE ARE FIXED ON JESUS. IF HE WASN'T GOD THERE WOULD BE QUITE A DIFFERENT STORY TOLD. And here we have Jesus with all these claims. I am the truth. He is the fullness of Grace and Glory. He can't be the fullness of Grace unless you are God. You can't become trillions of sin and then wash them away and resurrect yourself unless you are God. Col. 1:16, 17 says He created ALL THINGS. He wasn't created. The baby Jesus was physically born but the Spirit of the Son of God incarnated into Jesus in the womb of Mary. Immanuel means God with us.
 

Robert Gwin

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See you choose a mans opinion over the word of God. I listed for you on another thread that it is the blood needed for the forgiveness of sins. Even the word resurrection (ana stasis) standing again, requires Jesus physical resurrection! Once again you deny Gods Word to adhere to a man made organizations slick philosophy!

If Jesus was stood up again(resurrected-anastasis) what was laid down? Did Jesus die and invisible spirit creature? Did Jesus die as Michale? of did Jesus die as messiah? what was laid down? Was Jesus spirit laid down in the tomb?

Answered.
 

Robert Gwin

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So you are like mormnons in that all spirit being are god like.

Once again you deny the plain teaching of Scripture to accept a man made sects opinion!

Angels do not have the same essence as God, they are angelic not divine.

Jesus is not angelic but divine! Whatever nature god the Father has, God the son has.

Titles given to jesus by God the Father inspiring them.

Elohim
Jehovah of Hosts- Isaiah 44
Jevohah our righteousness- Jer. 23:6. Jer. 33:16
Mighty god Is.
Father of eternity.
First and last: Isaiah and rev.
God John, Timothy.

Yet the watchtrower cannot exalt him and redefines the terms.

All spirit beings are spirit beings sir. Jehovah is not referred to as an angel, I would gather because He is not created, but all spirit beings have His essence in that way, but of course all humans are made in His image as well, but are not spirit beings sir.

You said they were the same in essence, and that is the extent in which I can agree with you. Jesus of course is not Jehovah, nor are any of the other angels.
 

Robert Gwin

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I didn't cut off scripture, I am well aware that He said He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That identifies Him but doesn't name Him. He gave Moses an introduction to the Great "I AM" that would later be filled in: I am the way, I am the bread, I am the Good Shepherd, I am the resurrection and the life, I am the Door, I am the Vine, etc. The whole book of John is about Jesus deity. You are in denial if you cannot see that. No one can claim the things that Jesus did and not be God. "I am the Life". The creator of Life. I am the Way. We would except that a prophet would point to God and not himself. He would not take credit for anything - NOR WOULD AN ANGEL TAKE CREDIT. GOD ALWAYS RECEIVES THE CREDIT. If Jesus was not God, we would not be obeying Him at all. He would have instructed us to obey His Father. He would have instructed us to put our faith in our FATHER (and we do and pray to Him) but Jesus commands us to obey, believe in Him for eternal life, put our faith in Him. He is our FOCUS. WE ARE FIXED ON JESUS. IF HE WASN'T GOD THERE WOULD BE QUITE A DIFFERENT STORY TOLD. And here we have Jesus with all these claims. I am the truth. He is the fullness of Grace and Glory. He can't be the fullness of Grace unless you are God. You can't become trillions of sin and then wash them away and resurrect yourself unless you are God. Col. 1:16, 17 says He created ALL THINGS. He wasn't created. The baby Jesus was physically born but the Spirit of the Son of God incarnated into Jesus in the womb of Mary. Immanuel means God with us.

Then why did you not give the name Jehovah gave to Moses? Yes sir, you stopped when you heard what you wanted to hear, rather than what He said.
 

David H.

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I didn't cut off scripture, I am well aware that He said He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That identifies Him but doesn't name Him. He gave Moses an introduction to the Great "I AM" that would later be filled in: I am the way, I am the bread, I am the Good Shepherd, I am the resurrection and the life, I am the Door, I am the Vine, etc. The whole book of John is about Jesus deity. You are in denial if you cannot see that. No one can claim the things that Jesus did and not be God. "I am the Life". The creator of Life. I am the Way. We would except that a prophet would point to God and not himself. He would not take credit for anything - NOR WOULD AN ANGEL TAKE CREDIT. GOD ALWAYS RECEIVES THE CREDIT. If Jesus was not God, we would not be obeying Him at all. He would have instructed us to obey His Father. He would have instructed us to put our faith in our FATHER (and we do and pray to Him) but Jesus commands us to obey, believe in Him for eternal life, put our faith in Him. He is our FOCUS. WE ARE FIXED ON JESUS. IF HE WASN'T GOD THERE WOULD BE QUITE A DIFFERENT STORY TOLD. And here we have Jesus with all these claims. I am the truth. He is the fullness of Grace and Glory. He can't be the fullness of Grace unless you are God. You can't become trillions of sin and then wash them away and resurrect yourself unless you are God. Col. 1:16, 17 says He created ALL THINGS. He wasn't created. The baby Jesus was physically born but the Spirit of the Son of God incarnated into Jesus in the womb of Mary. Immanuel means God with us.

ONLY the Blood of God could redeem us, those who do not believe in the deity of Jesus have not been redeemed because the blood they believe in is not God's blood. If Jesus is not God, then when did God shed his blood to redeem us? I have yet to hear a JW answer this question.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Then why did you not give the name Jehovah gave to Moses? Yes sir, you stopped when you heard what you wanted to hear, rather than what He said.

I presented dozens of English translations of Ex. 3:14, where God tells Moses, "I AM WHO I AM: and He said, 'Say this ti the people if Israel, I AM has sent me to you".
In verse 6 and 13 God already identified Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ... the God of your fathers. This wasn't enough for Moses, so He asked for His name. God told Him specifically, what He wanted Moses to say. In verse 15, Adonai, LORD is used. JW's have changed this word 7000 times to Jehovah.
Jesus is the great I AM. The Supreme Being with infinite knowledge and power. "I Am" is the WORD, the exact expression and illumination of GOD, the Creator, with no begginning and no end, Who would empty Himself and become a human in the future through Christ. Moses could not contain or grasp this. When Christ came, Moses and Elijah did appear as spirutual beings as witnesses to Christ's glorified state.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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ONLY the Blood of God could redeem us, those who do not believe in the deity of Jesus have not been redeemed because the blood they believe in is not God's blood.
Jesus did not regard equally with God something that man would grasp, so He didn't push the issue. Many people who believed in Him, the Messiah and Savior still did not grasp His deity, yet believed what He said. They beleived He died for their sins and rose on the third day. And that He was God's Son. The depth of understanding of His nature wasn't a prerequisite. I am not sure it is now, though 98% of Christians believe this. We cannot judge Non-trinitarians or anyone. We cannot put them in the group whom only God knows are reprobate. God is the judge.
I would be careful not to condemn anyone. My father was a professed atheist until close to death.
My mother was a rebellious liberal person on the fringe of her own spiritual smorgasbord of beliefs. I had chipped away at those beliefs for 30 years and almost gave up hope ... until just days before her death when she confessed to believing that Jesus was always there for her and had his hand on her should. She was singing to us, "Jesus loves me ... "! So let's not condemn. We never know. Drug addicted murderers in prison come to faith in Christ. He is merciful.
 
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