Jerusalem: A Fig Tree That Will Bud Again

[Randy Kluth]

I think I kind of did this above but I can nail this one, so here goes. :cool:

Yea, I got that. The rise of Satan is in both Rev 12 and Dan 12. I don't, however, see an explicit identification with the same scenario. I do see, however, that the same satanic battle rages from the time of Antiochus to the time of the 4th Kingdom. Satan raises his head once more in the endtimes, when Rome is reconstituted, as I see it.

There is no explicit link, however, connecting the initial rise of Michael in the time after Antiochus to the endtimes time period being referred to in Rev 12. The theme, however, is being explicitly maintained, which is the rise of Satan to extinguish God's People, the Jews. That began in the time of Antiochus and continued in the time of the Roman Kingdom.

Only today, God's People includes way more than just the Jewish People. God has selected for Himself people from every nation, including from the Jewish nation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You, I assume meant Pre Trib Theology but stated post trib, so I am gong to run with that assumption.

Well yea, it was obviously an error. I corrected it now--thank you.

I can find it, and show it, and I can show themes how it can only happen that way via the 7 Feasts, and I can show passages that show it can have no other timing except pre trib. I can also tell you Jesus was sent only unto the Lost Sheep of Israel, and he wouldn't even let his 70 go unto the Gentiles and he himself would not heal the Samaritan woman's child, called her a dog, but eventually healed her child because of her GREAT FAITH. So, faith moves God. But Jesus' ministry was only unto Israel, so why are you looking for preaching by Jesus about the Gentile Church to come He gave that mission to Paul, and Paul speaks of it, I can go into detail, but it will take a post all unto itself to bring much needed clarity in full. I just proved beyond a doubt that Rev. 12, Daniel 12 and Matt. 24:15-31 are all End Time Events !!

Sorry, as I said, to prove something in the Scriptures you have to have explicit theology. Why don't you get that?

You can't just say, "Well, it the only logical way you can look at it." You have to find a passage that teaches ABC by finding A and B and C. If you want to teach that Jesus was the Way, Truth, and the Life you have to find passages that say that, which of course they do. If you want to teach that Jesus was the creator of the universe you have to find a verse that says that, which of course we do.

But you aren't finding a single verse or passage that teaches Pretrib--none whatsoever. It's all logic with you! It's all reading your assumptions into texts that don't teach what you claim it does.

You're teaching Dispensationalism, a division between Jews and Gentiles when Paul teaches that the wall of division has come down. All nations have their own boundaries, but with respect to ages of grace, there is now only one age of grace for both Jews and Gentiles.

When Israel is saved from destruction at Christ's coming so will the other nations of the world be saved from destruction. And the knowledge of the Lord will cover the whole earth as the waters cover the sea.

2 Thess. 2 specifically says the Departure (RAPTURE not Departure from the faith) will happen before the Man of Sin shows up and before God's Wrath falls. But, I digress, I will tackle this at a later time, it takes up hours.

As I said, interpretation is a science, and you lack the language skills necessary to translate here. All of the experts in the field that I read translate it differently--it's not a departure of the Church, but rather an Antichristian *apostasy!* It is a departure from the faith!

So, he's not actually saying a word we see today as a mysterious thing, he's saying I am telling you something God has not given to anyone else yet, except unto me (Paul) else it would not have been a secret.

Paul was not saying his revelation was different from the rest of the apostles--only that as apostle to the Gentiles before the others, he was kind of 1st to be able to elucidate on it.

It had long been predicted, as far back as the promises God made to Abraham. And Peter had been told to call Gentiles clean if they accepted Jesus. But Paul was given revelation and the ability to communicate it in a cogent way for the Church. That's why much of the NT belongs to him.

But it doesn't *remain a mystery!!!!* It is a revelation of the Church which already exists. Your so-called Rapture is a claim to still be a mystery! And what I'm saying is that the mystery that remains to be fulfilled is not a secret gnosis, but rather, a surprising revelation that is at odds with the way the world is presently.

So, if anyone is looking for an outright confirmation from anyone but Paul, then Jesus would have had to of expressly taught about a Gentile Church Rapture, heck Jesus didn't even teach about a Gentile Church to anyone, Paul had to bring the Disciples around unto that, via the Holy Spirits affirmation of course. That is why its a secret.

You have this totally wrong. Jesus' Revelation as given to John was after the Cross, and thus no longer just to the Jews. Before the Cross Jesus ministry was exclusively to the Jews. This has *absolutely nothing to do with the Rapture!*

Here's the thing brother we are living in the very END TIMES when God promised He would reveal all things unto His peoples.

So now the Rapture is revealed, and no longer a secret? I thought it's reserved only for the "enlightened" until the Secret Rapture happens, and the blind fall into the abyss of the Tribulation? ;)

But now you're telling me that you're "enlightened" because you declare you "know* there's a Pretrib Rapture coming, and that the Church is a mystery that most everybody but you "guesses about," and only you choose to believe and declare? Nonsense. How deceived can one be?

 

[Truth7t7]

Yea, I know. For the reasons I gave you I and many others have determined that the use of symbols for years is legitimate, and is biblical, as I showed you. Furthermore, as I said, the use of sabbaths, which initially consisted of "days," represents units of work leading to rest. With respect to redemption, or liberation from slavery, the Week was a week of years.

Exo 21.2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.

A greater period of redemption of property required 49 weeks of years, the year of jubilee.

Lev 25.8 Count off seven sabbath years—seven times seven years—so that the seven sabbath years amount to a period of forty-nine years.

But 70 x 7 years is more like the promise of restoration following an almost endless series of failiures, much as Jesus said to forgive 70 x 7.

Lev 26.21 If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve... 23 “If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24 I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over... 27 “‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over... 33 I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.

The idea is that for every 7 times that pass with affliction God is willing to forgive and give rest. He does this 7 times, and then 7 times, and then 7 times, until full punishment comes and the covenant of protection is utterly broken, and the people are cast out into exile so that the land itself can have rest from the sins of the people.

But Jesus came, even then, to bring redemption to a people who had sinned like this--70 x 7. And so Daniel doesn't just give a number of days so that we can predict and anticipate a prophetic fulfillment. Much more, these are weeks of grace so that Israel can hope against hope that they will be restored from their captivity and exile.

And so, I don't think it's days at all. Like the slave released, it's a sabbath of years, to bring deliverance from the bondage of sin. Israel rebuilt their temple after their Captivity, but they were still in bondage to their own personal sin. And Messiah was coming to bring lasting forgiveness for those willing to receive it.

I disagree with your "Theories" that aren't found in scripture

Daniel's seventy weeks are future, and consist of four hundred and ninety days

We Disagree

 

[Oseas]

Dan. 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks(69 weeks): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: (Messiah is CUT OFF after 69 weeks/Sacrificed....there is one week left and Jesus is dead !! These are truths brother.)

TRUE.
Daniel 9:.26-27-CJB-Jewish Bible-WHAT PREVAILS IS THE WORD OF GOD. The Word is GOD.

26 - Then, AFTER(yeah AFTER)after the sixty-two weeks, MASHIACH will be cut off and have nothing.The people of A PRINCE (YEAH A PRINCE) yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over. (This has nothing to do with the destruction of Israel in the year 70AD, as follows:

27 He (he WHOM? the PRINCE; who is he?) he will make a strong COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week [of years].
Do you see? This SATANIC PRINCE will rule the last week, the week 70th, by entire. And he will make a strong COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week[of years]. (This prince is not a contemporary of JESUS, absolutely)
What kind of strong COVENANT the satanic PRINCE will make with leaders? Who are these leaders? By the way, the week 70th Daniel 9:v.27 will be divided in two periods of 3,5 years by the evil Prince.
In this POINT, that is, AFTER the END of the week 62, the prophecy is still to the beginning of the week 70th, and A PRINCE will start to work in his strong COVENANT with leaders;

Therefore, in this point the FIRST half of the week 70th isn't started yet, it is I would say in stand by until this current time, and the STRONG COVENANT of the satanic PRINCE with the LEADERS will take place or will be applied for ONE WEEK I believe in this current decade, there is a period of time AND EVENTS called as FIRST half of the last week -week 70th- that will be ruled by the EVIL PRINCE.
... he -the EVIL PRINCE- shall confirm the COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK he-THE EVIL PRINCE- shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Scripture does not say JESUS was crucified IN 29 AD, many people are saying that, not Scripture. What Scripture says is that AFTER, yeah, AFTER the week 62 plus 7 the Messiah is"cut off".

JESUS was not crucified neither in the week 69, because the week 69 ended in 34 B.C., so JESUS was crucified AFTER the END of week 69, but also was not crucified in the midst of the week 70th as many say, what is a devilish lie, this week 70th is/will be RULED by the EVIL PRINCE by the entire. The evil Prince was not a contemporary of JESUS, absolutely. THIS evil Prince will manifest in this CURRENT decade, between 2020 to 2030 and the period of 7 years is within this current decade.

ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION

JESUS said: Matthew 24:v.15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by DANIEL the prophet, stand in the holy place, ( whoso readeth, let him understand )

Speaking of the Abomination of Desolation, JESUS referred to the book of Daniel, not to the book of the dead Judas Macabeus ... some peoples have been possessed by the spirit of he dead Judas Macabbeus and have spread devilish and deceiver theories linked to Antiochus Epifanes here and elsewhere.

In my understanding, what prevails to interpret the book of Daniel is the own book of Daniel and biblical books of his contemporary time, not apocriphal book and devilish literatures which deceiver spirits use surreptitiously to sow his spurious and satanic tares in this Christian site and elsewhere.

THE INTERPRETATION OF THE WEEK 70TH - DANIEL 9:v.27 - THE LAST WEEK -

ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION - THE PROPHECY STEP BY STEP

Judah is conquered by Babylon - Jerusalem and First Temple destroyed; most Jews are exiled to Babylon.
587 - 559 B.C. - The conquer of Judah's kingdom by Babylon lasted from 587 - 559 B.C.,

559 B.C. - Babylon is conquered by Cyrus - Cyrus's reigns lasted from 559-538 B.C.
The rebuilding of the Temple of Jerusalem is AUTHORIZED by Cyrus in his 1st year- 559 B.C - Ezra 5:v.13 and 6:v.3.

522 B.C. - Darius reigned from year 522-486 B.C.

Captivity of Israel lasted 70 years ---> 587 B.C.- 70 = 517 B.C.
Temple reconstruction ended in around 516 B.C. - Ezra 6:v.15-CJB ou Jewish Torah - This house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, in the SIXTH year of the reign of Daryavesh (Darius) the king. Darius reigned from year 522-486 B.C.

First year of Darius 522 B.C.---> his sixth year - 516 B.C. Temple reconstruction ended in around 516 B.C.
The rebuilding of the Temple finished after 21 years IN THE YEAR 516 B.C, part was built in the time of Cyrus, and part in the time of Darius.

Again: Captivity of Israel = 70 years, so 587 B.C. - 70 = 517 B.C.
End of the rebuilding of the Temple was in around 516 B.C. according to Scripture quoted above.- Ezra 6:v.15

7 weeks = 49 years-.---> 517 B.C. - 49 = 468 B.C.

62 weeks = 434 years..---> 468 B.C - 434 B.C = 34 B.C. Until this point 483 years or 69 weeks - 62 plus 7 weeks - of prophecy have fulfilled itself, i.e. from year 517 B.C. until year 34 B.C.. THIS IS REAL. THIS IS TRUER.

NOTE: Jesus was born around -4 B.C, so there was a gap of 30 years, from 34 B.C. until JESUS's birth in - 4B.C. The last week of years-7 years- that is the week 70th Daniel 9:v.27 stayed in suspense, I would say in stand by, until this present time and manifestation of the Abomination of Desolation that will occur in the midst of the week and until the consumation, until the END of this Devil's world.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Hermeneutics is a Science! If you treat Biblical Interpretation like a Ouija Board, instead of like a Science, I'm not surprised we disagree on many of these subjects. And I'm not surprised you refuse to listen to any information that contradicts your theories, no matter how "scientific" this information is!

Science is simply a journey from the unknown to the known, hence all form of "Science" is not really science in God's eyes, in other words Einstein's last understanding of Relativity was correct and scientific, all his previous understandings were only Theories, which were not true science. Whether you have 100s of theories or interpretations, that is not a science, true science is always factual, not guessing games. I don't follow men who are not of God to get information about God, I don't even get that thought process tbh. And yes, the Holy Spirit is all we need, the Holy Spirit is God so why would we need more than that brother? And yes, God can use men, just like He showed me through studying history about Jason, and used doctors to heal me from prostrate cancer, but God gave me the common horse sense to understand in each situation what I needed to do, I don't buy that we need these great esteemed men to be able to think, I probably know more about the book of Revelation than anyone you ever met, but I will not try to get all puffed up with a degree in Revelation, and hawk a book for cash........LOL, that's just not me brother.

Who did Jesus chose for his Disciples? Esteemed Pharisees whom had much book knowledge, or simple unlearned men? We know the answer to that don't we? Let me be frank here, NO MAN who seeks God with his mind will ever truly find God, He says when we seek Him with all of our hearts, then will we find God. The intellectual types will never truly know God.

Do you really think you can learn the biblical languages just by osmosis, by "feeling" the Holy Spirit? Language learning is a science. And those who wish to dig deep into the Scriptures often find it useful to learn Hebrew and Greek, as well as Aramaic. If you don't know what is really being said, the Holy Spirit isn't going to do the homework for you!

I don't "feel" anything, the Holy Spirit, who is God, lives in my heart. He should live in all Christians hearts, but sadly 5 of the 10 virgins will not make the Rapture/Wedding in Heaven which lasts for 7 years (the Jewish Groom and Bride stayed in the Marriage Chambers for 7 days, then came the Marriage Feast/Armageddon is that Marriage Feast, read Rev. 19). I have Greek and Hebrew manuscripts I can cross check, I don't have to do deep dives, I just need at times to correct wrong headed translations, like the supposed Apostasy seen in 2 Thess. 2 which is actually not a departure from the Faith (which is never spoken of in the passage) but a Departure of the Church from a standing on this earth (which was spoken of in verse 1 via the Gathering unto Jesus....the pre trib rapture). We have computers, we have information at our fingertips no one had 100 years ago, thus we can accomplish much more without these so called degrees. I doubt the Disciples or many of the Prophets ever had degrees, but they all had the Holy Spirit, which is much more important. Do you not talk to the holy spirit every day brother? "He is more real to me than you are" a famous 70s preacher woman told Benny Hinn, who then went on to have a visitation with the Holy Spirt for one whole year. Jesus is a personhood, God is the Father and the Holy Spirit is the helper Jesus gave us, the Groom has to give a gift to the bride, the Holy Spirt was that gift.

If you don't want to learn the biblical languages, the recourse is to lexicons and concordances, among other Bible aids. If you reject this too, I wonder how you can love any science at all?

You need to learn to listen not to *liberal* scholars, but to good conservative, believing scholars, who are time-tested. You certainly don't have to agree with everything they say, but their background information is, in my view, very useful.

And God, I believe, called these scholars too! They've dedicated their lives to helping other Christians properly understand God's written word. You would just throw that away?

What makes you think your claim to a "calling" is any more credible than their claim to a "calling?" What makes your studies more "enlightened" than my studies?

I have have no problem learning from others who have learned from God, just like I have no problem with Doctors healing me, and God has also healed me before when I was very weary, working 20 hours a day 6 days a week for years God one night refreshed me, I felt like I had slept for years, but those scholars have not got anywhere near the understanding of Prophecy that God has already given me, so why would I need to study them when God is giving me His understandings directly? It seems you are hung up a little bit on knowledge, and don't quite grasp the way God teaches us through the holy spirit, I got that when you described it as a "FEELING" it sems you do not understand operating in the holy spirit, so naturally you would not understand why I don't need anything else. I know what is in the world information wise, and what I understand, In don't quite get your rationale tbh, God is our greatest source of information not men, Jesus chastised the Pharisees for their "traditions of men"(you do understand that meant past down knowledge right? from other men), then Jesus told them why he chose babes for Disciples instead of learned men.

To be honest, I have no interest in getting bogged down in a debate about how I or others should serve God or how I study to find myself approved of God, I simply fail to understand why you cant grasp that we only need God not other men, of course other me wrote the bible but it was of God. But then I kind of get my answer when you called the input of the Holy Spirit a "FEELING", so I don't quite think you understand how God actually operates in men of God in general, AND if you did I don't think you wouldn't ask those questions, so it is what it is on that.

Read Luke 4 and Jesus' temptation. It says Jesus was led into the wilderness by THE SPIRIT.

THEN........later on after he was tempted and OBEYED God in all things he came out of the wilderness in the POWER of the Spirit. Even Jesus had to obey to operate in the power of the Spirit, that is why Paul says do not quench the spirit, if we hear His small still voice and do not take action, the Holy Spirit will withdraw from our lives slowly, that is why He should be as real unto you as an actual person sitting beside you. We can't just ignore the Holy Spirit and expect him to operate in us. He can't be a feeling brother, He has to be as real to you as anyone you have ever known, else you are not getting His Blessings in full.

God bless

But from here on, I will not discuss (you can, I am just not going to get bogged down in it) anything about the way God teaches me or its legitimacy, its not a fruitful enterprise in my mind.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Do you see? This SATANIC PRINCE will rule the last week, the week 70th, by entire.

This is one possible interpretation, as I see it. Rome may have "confirmed the 70th Week covenant" by putting Jesus to death. That is, the Roman ruler adjudicated at Jesus' trial, delivering him to be executed, thus fulfilling biblical prophecy. In the midst of the 70th Week Pilate ended the sacrifices of the Law by putting the Messiah to death, thus rendering the Law nil.

Jesus, the Messiah, was said to come *after* the 69 Weeks. Thus, he came in the 70th Week to fulfill the covenant in his death. It was then, after the 70th Week was completed in the midst of that Week that the Roman Army came to desolate the city and the sanctuary, which was in 70 AD.

Dan 9.26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One [Messiah] will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come [Rome] will destroy the city and the sanctuary [70 AD]. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He [Rome] will confirm a covenant [fulfill the Law] with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering [invalidate the Law]. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation [the Roman Army], until the end that is decreed is poured out on it [the 70 AD destruction of the temple].

I consider this a very possible interpretation. Vs. 27 is a recapitulation of vs. 26.

Vs. 26: After 69 Weeks--Messiah in the 70th Week. Messiah killed. Jerusalem destroyed.
Vs. 27: Rome confirms biblical prophecy of the Messiah in the 70th Week. Temple destroyed.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I know Zechariah well enough to have this discussion. To suggest otherwise seems to be your way of expressing your frustration that someone doesn't see things the way you do?

I'm particularly familiar with Zech 12-14. It is indeed mostly a sweep through NT prophecy to the end of the age, when Israel is delivered.

But the problem is, you've gotten off track from what I was asking. I asked where the Bible shows that the Jews repent and convert to Christianity *before* the 1260 days? There isn't even a 1260 day period in the book of Zechariah! So I have no idea what your concern is about my knowledge of Zechariah?

You seem to be avoiding the overall contextual point all of this was first brought up in. That Zechariah 13:8-9 is indeed Israel repenting JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord(you said show me, I did) as seen in Zechariah 14:1-2. Thus you stated it wasn't the Jews repenting before Jesus came back at his Second Coming, so I endeavored to proved it was, that the Jews indeed repent at the 1290, which is 1290 days before Jesus returns and 30 days before the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem at the 1260 middle of the week event.

I can only go by what you say unto me brother, and you did not understand that the Jews (3-5 million) repent just before the Day of the Lord falls (God's Wrath). So I didn't get off tracked, you stated SHOW ME, where the Jews repent before Jesus returns, and that is what I did. I never stated they convert to Christianity, that is your words, they may call it something different, after all Jesus is their Messiah, they can call it anything they wish, Jesus fulfilled Judaism, they just rejected Jesus, REMEMBER, he said I am come to fulfill the Laws. That tangent didn't need to happen, lol.

And yes, we indeed do know what the 1260 is, Dan. 12:7 tells us its the Anti-Christ conquering Jerusalem/Israel or the holy peoples at the 1260 (time, times and half) and thus Zechariah 14:1 says the Day of the Lord has come, AND Jerusalem is conquered, so we know that the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem on the Day of the Lord, else how can he be a Beast over Israel for 1260 days? Thus we know that Zechariah 14:1-2 is the 1260 Event, and that Zechariah 14:3-4 is Armageddon.

I don't get frustrated brother, its not a part of my nature, God teaches us patience. I teach properly, whether others see that or not is up to the holy spirit, and them.

I never said Zech 12-14 had nothing to do with endtime events. It speaks of the Shepherd being struck in ch. 13.7--this does not have to do with the endtimes--this is Christ being struck when he was crucified on the cross. The "sword" is being used, I think, metaphorically for getting murdered.

At any rate, I think the vision largely, in chs. 12-14, does have to do with Israel's ultimate deliverance in the endtimes. But none of this is said to take place *before* a 1260 day period, which is what you claimed.

This is why we have to use the bible to understand the bible elsewhere, here a little, there a little. As I stated above, the 1260 event is where the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem in the end times, and Jerusalem will never be conquered again, except this ONE TIME by the Anti-Christ, so if you agree that Zechariah 12-14 is END TIME EVENTS, and you see Jerusalem getting conquered in Zech. 14:1 why don't you understand that is the 1260 event? The Anti-Christ is a Beast of Israel for how long? 1260 days, thus this conquering of Israel in Zech. 14:1 has to be the 1260 event, it can be no other period of time, period. The holy spirit is the only one who can give us these deep insights, no men I have ever seen can figure this stuff out, that's because the holy spirit wrote the whole bible and because God knows the beginning from the end.

There's not a thing about the 70th Week! You are adding things into the context, assuming it is the 70th Week. But nothing says this. You are being very "unscientific" about this, not interpreting things by the rules of hermeneutics.

I know its the 70th week, God's prophecy proves that, its not even a debatable point to me, so I am always going to call it the 70th week, if you wish to call it something else, feel free to do so, but it is the 70th week, I have a blog that destroys any other assertion, which I can bring forth at any time. But I will continue to call it the 70th week because that is what it is and if you chose to call it, whatsoever you will, I promise I will not try to change your thought process in the middle of a reply, but I will still answer :). The last week is indeed the 70th week of Israel's judgment, I am not going to change my stance on that ever, period. It's how I see it.

This may refer to Israel in all of NT history, or to Israel strictly in the endtimes--I don't know? I don't see a clear time-frame, although much of what is referred to is endtime.

And I've never doubted that Israel will be brought back to God at the return of Christ. The political deliverance begins before that, but the spiritual deliverance follows at Christ's Return, I believe.

This is one of those misnomers (men's traditions) I spoke of earlier, the political deliverance started in 1948, the spiritual deliverance happens BEFORE the Day of the Lord as Malachi 4:5-6 proves. I truly don't get why people do not understand we are all the same, no man can come unto God except by FAITH ALONE, be he Jew or Gentile, our righteousness, just like Abrahams was, is seen as our righteousness because of our faith alone. God didn't chose 1/3 to save, and 2/3 to let die, He chose the 1/3 who repented !! This happens just before the Day of the Lord, no one can understand end time events in full until the grasp this.

Yes, Rev 19 certainly fits the mold of Zech 14.3! I do see a possible reference here. I think you got confused about what I was asking. I of course believe much of Zech 12-14 is endtimes.

I do agree that Israel experiences limited political deliverance in the endtimes, right before the end. But I also believe that Israel's spiritual reformation takes place *at* the Return of Christ, and not *before* a 1260 day period.

You have not proven in the least that national Israel converts before the 1260 day period. In the present age, only a remnant converts to Christianity. That is in Romans 9-11.

No, no, I saw exactly what you were saying, (NOW GET THIS, its very important) but you couldn't OVERCOME what you had always assumed, that Israel would only come unto Jesus when he returned, not before, thus even though you actually saw and understood Zechariah 12-14 as END TIME EVENTS, for some reason it seems to have never occurred to you that the 1/3 of the Jews who repent, do so JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord, because (remember my 2 + 2 = 5 theory, the one I said I had for 30 plus years? ) you were trained in your mind to see it that way (that Jesus comes and saves the Jews at the very end). That is my whole point about men's traditions, it blocks our thinking !! I do not blame others, I had the exact same problem until that one night the holy spirit spoke to me and said "Ron, you guys already know it all". So, I never assumed you didn't understand Zechariah, I assumed something was blocking you from seeing that Israel repents just before the Day of the Lord in the middle of the week or God's Wrath.

The thought is still pulling at you in the reply above, that it just can't be, even though the passage's timing shows that it is that way. And Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah will be sent back BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord to turn Israel back unto God. I have lots more passages, but to do so I have to explain the book of Revelation and its chronological order in full. Dan. 9:24-27 says Israel MUST REPENT before the 70th week ends.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

This is so convoluted I can't understand it. I repeat--families from *all* 10 tribes in the Northern Kingdom came down to Judah to properly worship God in Jerusalem. The Northern Kingdom turned to idol worship, and so was abandoned by God.

Its not hard to understand at all brother, it just proves the 10 tribes were never lost. If you read the Two Sticks Prophecy in Ezekiel 37 you will understand that God tuns two kingdoms into one kingdom by having the Northern Kingdoms toted off. All 12 Tribes still had seed in Judah.

To simplify it somewhat, SEED = men who can have children and begat more seed. So, all 12 tribes had SEED (men who can have other children thus MORE SEED) living in Judah, so those toted off mean nothing, it doesn't stop THE SEED from each tribe continuing. I think you are smart enough that you got both points I made. Thus no seed was ever lost, OR each tribe always had people from that tribe living in Judah.

If you keep importing passages from elsewhere into a passage we're discussing we'll get nowhere. You have to interpret a passage in *its own context first!* Otherwise, everything gets convoluted, and you are basing your conclusions on many unproven assumptions about other passages. We can't discuss all of the passages you bring up at the same time!

The bible fits together, the holy spirit wrote it, that is why its so great, that in and of itself is a great testament, that many men wrote it, but it matches entirely, because the holy spirit wrote it. Nothing I say is unproven just because others don't understand it, many actual do, it is what it is brother.

Yes, some of this is related. Michael rises up in Dan 12 because that is right after the fall of Antiochus when Rome, the 4th Beast, is rising. Rome is the beast empire that destroys the city and the sanctuary and under which Jesus is cut off. Israel then enters into a new period of desolation by Rome, the Abomination of Desolation, which requires that Michael stand up to preserve Israel during the time of her tribulation/diaspora. In the endtimes, Satan rises to try to destroy Israel once more, but Christ, who was delivered from him, portends the end of Satan's violence.

So, did you just block out the part where it shows the End Time Judgments are at in Dan. 12:1-2? You see, you are trying to stick to an argument that has been overcome by the facts, (2 + 2 = 5) how can Antiochus be THE SUBJECT when we see this below in BOLD:


Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It is CLEARLY End Times brother, not a double meaning, these words are very, very precise. The time when Michael stands up is the end days judgment times we see in Rev, 12, where Israel are DELIVERED once and for all and the dead are judged. Can't just say that is "thrown in for a different time period".

What makes the tribulation the worst in Israel's history is not the number of the dead in a particular war. Rather, it is the sheer length of time of this particular punishment, which lasts *throughout the entire NT age!*

Earlier national judgments had lasted much less of a period of time, eg 70 years. This punishment will threaten the very existence of the Jewish People. And as we've seen, some have tried to extinguish them entirely, such as Hitler.

No, it is the *length of time* that makes this the worst punishment in Israel's history. We cannot compare death with death--all death is as bad as another death. This isn't about what torture is the worst torture!

Were you doing a belly roll laugh when you tried to get yourself to buy this argument brother. Pass the wading boots, its getting deep in here !! So, they were to flee because of the coming 2000 years after 70 AD ? Just admit I overcame your argument and and feel like God enlightened you, don't try to avoid the light. I bet you felt bad trying to make this argument, it was a futile but valid effort I guess. COME ON MAN !! (Biden)

I am waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting, Ohhh, the horror of it all, the HORRORS, EEEEKKEEE, SCREAMS, the door opens, what's going on in there? Errrr, Billy just put on "Time" by Pink Floyd, our girlfriends were terrorized by that song, said they had never heard anything as scary as TIME, TIME, TIME.

The Anti-Christ kills 1/4 of the World after the Rapture, so that is like two Billion people who die. The 200 Million Angelic force kills 1/3 of those who have taken the Mark of the Beast so that's another 1-2 billion people or even more, who knows, so we are speaking about 3-5 billion deaths during the last 42 months of the 70th week Judgments. Its not length of time brother that Jesus is speaking of, it is TROUBLES which the Jews will see in that 42 month period of time, which will include 3-5 billion deaths, so many that God Himself says if he didn't send Jesus back to shorten this mans rule, no flesh on earth would be saved. In other words, God has foreseen what would have happened if he allowed this man to rule for 5 or 10 years instead of 3.5 years, etc.

You are just asserting your own interpretations--not proving them!

No, I am just blessed by God and good at my calling brother. I know Prophecy and how it all fits together.

After 69 Weeks of Years Jesus' ministry began and lasted until in the midst of the 70th Week he is cut off. What is actually said is that legal offerings are terminated in the midst of the 70th Week. But I interpret that to mean Christ is cut off at that time, as well, terminating the usefulness of animal sacrifices. I'm open on this.

The "people of the prince to come" were, in my view, the Romans, who desolated the city and the sanctuary. This "prince" was therefore not the Antichrist, in my view. Our posts are too long, and I'm told they need to be reduced or not be sent.

NOOOO, it does not say he was cut off after 69 1/2 weeks, it says after 69 weeks. The Covenant has ZERO to do with Israel repenting. The Agreement is between the Anti-Christ and Israel and THE MANY in the Mediterranean Sea Region. I will post my blog here that shows Israel has not repented yet and thus the 70 weeks judgments has not ended.

It says the people of the PRINCE TO COME (later) not the People under the prince.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You seem to be avoiding the overall contextual point all of this was first brought up in. That Zechariah 13:8-9 is indeed Israel repenting JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord(you said show me, I did) as seen in Zechariah 14:1-2. Thus you stated it wasn't the Jews repenting before Jesus came back at his Second Coming, so I endeavored to proved it was, that the Jews indeed repent at the 1290, which is 1290 days before Jesus returns and 30 days before the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem at the 1260 middle of the week event.

No, you've utterly failed to show that Israel repents, as a *nation,* prior to 1260 days, or even prior to Christ's Return! Sorry!

...I never stated they convert to Christianity...

Are you changing the narrative now? What is the difference between "conversion before 1260 days" and "conversion before 1260 days?" ;)

And yes, we indeed do know what the 1260 is, Dan. 12:7 tells us its the Anti-Christ conquering Jerusalem/Israel or the holy peoples at the 1260 (time, times and half)...

This is a prime example of your importing other passages into the passage you are discussing, and thus confusing the message. You can't draw a reasonably-sure conclusion with this kind of importation! Dan 12 mentions 3.5 years, which we know from Revelation is the same as the 1260 days. But nowhere is it said that Antichrist conquers Jerusalem at this time. Zechariah 14 says "half" of the city falls, leading to the city's complete deliverance! And this happens *at the Return of Christ,* and not before!

I know its the 70th week, God's prophecy proves that, its not even a debatable point to me...

And so you can't prove your claims by explicit biblical theology and expect that it's okay to declare your biblical claims as legitimate because...you wish to do so? Good argument! ;)

This is one of those misnomers (men's traditions) I spoke of earlier, the political deliverance started in 1948, the spiritual deliverance happens BEFORE the Day of the Lord as Malachi 4:5-6 proves. I truly don't get why people do not understand we are all the same, no man can come unto God except by FAITH ALONE, be he Jew or Gentile, our righteousness, just like Abrahams was, is seen as our righteousness because of our faith alone. God didn't chose 1/3 to save, and 2/3 to let die, He chose the 1/3 who repented !! This happens just before the Day of the Lord, no one can understand end time events in full until the grasp this.

Again, I said I'm not clear on the 1/3 who are delivered part. None of it means that Israel *as a nation* is delivered or converted prior to Christ's Return. Certainly, a remnant is preserved.

The thought is still pulling at you in the reply above, that it just can't be, even though the passage's timing shows that it is that way. And Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah will be sent back BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord to turn Israel back unto God. I have lots more passages, but to do so I have to explain the book of Revelation and its chronological order in full. Dan. 9:24-27 says Israel MUST REPENT before the 70th week ends.

The passage about Elijah coming before the Day of the Lord was fulfilled in John the Baptist. And that certainly was *not* the *nation* coming to the Lord in repentance. In the end, relatively few maintained their repentant attitude.

And please, please quit using your "calling" as an excuse to assert things without biblical authority. It's fine that you bring forth biblical arguments. But when I ask for explicit biblical statements, don't say, "I'm called, and I choose to declare what I believe, regardless of whether I can bring forth explicit statements or not."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Its not hard to understand at all brother, it just proves the 10 tribes were never lost. If you read the Two Sticks Prophecy in Ezekiel 37 you will understand that God tuns two kingdoms into one kingdom by having the Northern Kingdoms toted off. All 12 Tribes still had seed in Judah.

But that's what I said before you said what you said! That's what confused me! What I said was that before the N. Kingdom went into exile, many from the 10 tribes had migrated south into Judah. So Judah became the repository of all 12 Tribes, and the temple worship began to reflect that.

Read Ezra and Nehemiah. They began to be called "the Jews" after the Babylonian Captivity because they were the remnant of the S. Kingdom that was restored. That is where the temple worship was, and that had to be restored first. But though they were called "Jews," they represented at that point in time all 12 tribes.

I'll have to get back with you....

 

[Randy Kluth]

So, did you just block out the part where it shows the End Time Judgments are at in Dan. 12:1-2? You see, you are trying to stick to an argument that has been overcome by the facts, (2 + 2 = 5) how can Antiochus be THE SUBJECT when we see this below in BOLD:
Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12.1 occurs immediately following reference to Antiochus--there is no chapter/verse divisions in the original writing. So what is being stated is that immediately after Antiochus dies, Michael has to arise to protect Israel. And what was the danger after Antiochus died? It was the rise of Rome.

The reason the account jumps ahead to the last days, when the 3.5 years of Antichrist takes place, is because the time of trouble being talked about extends from Antiochus to the 2nd Coming! This is the Great Punishment of the Jewish People Jesus talks about in his Olivet Discourse. It was when Rome arose after Antiochus that the temple worship was eventually crushed, leading to an age-long "Tribulation" of the Jewish People.

Were you doing a belly roll laugh when you tried to get yourself to buy this argument brother. Pass the wading boots, its getting deep in here !!

What is this all about?

So, they were to flee because of the coming 2000 years after 70 AD ?

What are you talking about? "Flee from what?" Where are you getting this "fleeing" from? Are you importing foreign passages again?

Just admit I overcame your argument and and feel like God enlightened you, don't try to avoid the light. I bet you felt bad trying to make this argument, it was a futile but valid effort I guess. COME ON MAN !! (Biden)

Good grief!

I am waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting, Ohhh, the horror of it all, the HORRORS, EEEEKKEEE, SCREAMS, the door opens, what's going on in there? Errrr, Billy just put on "Time" by Pink Floyd, our girlfriends were terrorized by that song, said they had never heard anything as scary as TIME, TIME, TIME.

Good grief!

Its not length of time brother that Jesus is speaking of, it is TROUBLES which the Jews will see in that 42 month period of time...

As I've said in many other places, Jesus describes this Jewish Punishment as lasting *throughout the entire NT period.*

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

No, I am just blessed by God and good at my calling brother. I know Prophecy and how it all fits together.

You certainly haven't impressed me today. Why don't you cut out all of the insulting rhetoric, and take my considerations seriously? That's what more respectful people do.

NOOOO, it does not say he was cut off after 69 1/2 weeks, it says after 69 weeks.

Half way through the 70th Week is still *after the 69th Week!*

The Covenant has ZERO to do with Israel repenting. The Agreement is between the Anti-Christ and Israel and THE MANY in the Mediterranean Sea Region. I will post my blog here that shows Israel has not repented yet and thus the 70 weeks judgments has not ended.

It says the people of the PRINCE TO COME (later) not the People under the prince.

I think it is very possible that the people of the prince to come are the Romans, and that the prince, ie the Roman leader, confirms the covenant of the Law by having Christ killed. These are open questions to me. It does seem that if I'm to be consistent, and view the "prince" as the Roman leader, then he is the one who is confirming God's covenant by having Christ killed, and ultimately the temple worship desolated.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Yea, I got that. The rise of Satan is in both Rev 12 and Dan 12. I don't, however, see an explicit identification with the same scenario. I do see, however, that the same satanic battle rages from the time of Antiochus to the time of the 4th Kingdom. Satan raises his head once more in the endtimes, when Rome is reconstituted, as I see it.

There is no explicit link, however, connecting the initial rise of Michael in the time after Antiochus to the endtimes time period being referred to in Rev 12.

The Church is Raptured Pre Trib, this is why not knowing this leads people onto wrong paths overall. There will be gentiles saved after the Rapture (Martyrs/5th Seal....seen as raised and judged in Rev. 20:4) and there will be Jews who accept their Messiah and whom God protects in the Petra/Bozrah area for 1260 days. But as I stated earlier, and yesterday, the Dan. 12:1-2 verses EXPLICITLY STATES that this is the end time when men are raised from the dead and judged. Its not 70 AD, no one got raised from the dead and judged in 70 AD brother. You are trying to hold on to a disproven argument.

Sorry, as I said, to prove something in the Scriptures you have to have explicit theology. Why don't you get that?

No, I proved it, Dan. 12:1-2 says at that time the DEAD will be raise and Judged, its END TIMES, not 70 AD, now whether you agree or not doesn't change the facts I proved brother. TBH, I don't need other men, if you do, more power to you, but if you think Theology proves God than you and I are are in different boats.

You can't just say, "Well, it the only logical way you can look at it." You have to find a passage that teaches ABC by finding A and B and C. If you want to teach that Jesus was the Way, Truth, and the Life you have to find passages that say that, which of course they do. If you want to teach that Jesus was the creator of the universe you have to find a verse that says that, which of course we do.

TIMIING.........TIMING........TIMING.

God's prophesies are proved in many cases via the understanding of the timings of each event. For instance if I give you 200 jumbled events to come in the future, but I give you no specific timeline of when each event will occur, the more event TIMINGS you solve, the easier the other events will be to solve. Its like a 200 piece puzzle, its gets easer and easier as you go. Prophecy is a riddle, in order to solve a lot of it we we have to mater the TIMING FIRST. Until one understands the 1260 is the False Prophet, not the Anti-Christ they will always be blinded into thinking the Anti-Christ stops the Sacrifice and places the AoD and thus Satan will have them confused with a roadblock. But once you understand that the 1290 happens 30 days before the 1260, and thus it can not be the Anti-Christ, BOOM, you are then freed from that roadblock. Once we understand the Seals are not Judgments, and we know the Judgments start in the middle of the week (1260) then we can understand that the 144,000 are code (3-5 million Jews who repent) for all of the Jews fleeing Judea just before the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments fall. So, these TIMING issues are most important.

But you aren't finding a single verse or passage that teaches Pretrib--none whatsoever. It's all logic with you! It's all reading your assumptions into texts that don't teach what you claim it does.

I will proved t to you, but you will probably not accept it.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You're teaching Dispensationalism, a division between Jews and Gentiles when Paul teaches that the wall of division has come down. All nations have their own boundaries, but with respect to ages of grace, there is now only one age of grace for both Jews and Gentiles.

When Israel is saved from destruction at Christ's coming so will the other nations of the world be saved from destruction. And the knowledge of the Lord will cover the whole earth as the waters cover the sea.

Well you can call it as you please, I don't do tags. Yes I understand what it means because of people saying it, but to me, when I see people using tags I know they are overthinking things. Futurism, Dispenwhateverism etc. doesn't impress me, I know that all of these prophesies that are yet to be fulfilled will indeed at some point in time be fulfilled, whatever "ISM" people chose to call it, more power to them, that's not my bag.

I teach just the opposite of what you suggest on the Jews and Gentiles, and I can explain Galatians 3 perfectly, it doesn't mean the Jews and Gentiles are ALL ONE, it meant just the opposite, Paul was trying to tell the Galatians to stop trying to be Jews (serving the Laws) in order to make it unto Heaven. Thus he says "Who has bewitched you, that coming from the Faith, you are no serving the flesh" (the laws). Then he goes through verse after verse proving unto them that they were justified by faith alone and not the law, he says the law only came 430 years after THE PROMISE. In vs. 2 he asks, did you receive the Spirit by works or by Faith? He says Abraham's belief made him Righteous, and therefore those that are of faith are the children of Abraham and that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, for if the inheritance be of the law it is no more a promise. Why were we ever given the law then Paul asks? He then says it was given because of sin, until the SEED (Jesus) of the PROMISE should come. Therefore the law was a schoolmaster to bring us unto Jesus !!

THEN PAUL SAYS THIS........Which many people misconstrue.

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

So, the whole point Paul makes in this chapter gets reversed by many people who say we are now "all one" in Christ Jesus, that is not what Paul is saying here at all, he is chastising the Galatian's for trying to serve the law like the Jews did in order to make it to heaven because no doubt, some Christians with a Jewish heritage or some teachers of bad faith had told them, you have got to keep these laws, and these laws, etc. etc. and Paul then scolds them and says who has fooled/bewitched you to believe in this stuff? You started out in faith and are now serving the law which no man can ever keep !! By which no man can be justified !! They were trying to work their way to Heaven just like the Jews were doing when Jesus came !!

So, when Paul says there is neither Greek nor Jew, he's telling the Galatians, hey guys you don't have to be Jews to make it to Heaven, quit trying to keep the law, he's not saying we are ALL ONE !! And what proves this 1000 percent is the underlined portion above, there are also no Male nor Female in Christ Jesus, well, are there still males and females ? Yes, of course there are, and there are also still Jews and Gentiles, but we all must come unto Christ Jesus in the exact same way, by FAITH ALONE !! The Jews cant just be rescued by God, they must repent and live by faith just like we do.

So, do I think the Jews and Gentiles are "DIFFERENT" as you say above, no not as pertaining unto faith, but the Jews have to set up a kingdom on this earth with Jesus for 1000 years, so God sees them as having a different path (calling) than the Gentile Church, BUT.....................we are all the same because of the way we come unto Christ Jesus by faith alone. (but not the same in our callings per se)

Jews of old like Abraham (Jew is now a generic term for Israelite via my use) were accounted as Righteous because of their Faith. During the Church Age all Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus and accept him as their Savior/Messiah will be saved, and they will all be Raptured at the Pre Trib Rapture. (NO DIFFERENCE)

After the Pre Trib Rapture, all of those who come to Christ Jesus will still be saved, by FAITH ALONE, both Jew and Gentile, the only difference is the 5 Brides (Gentile Church) who missed the Rapture will all be Martyred more than likely and die, they are the Martyrs seen under the Altar at the 5th Seal, and those also seen in Revelation 20:4 who refused the Mark of the Beast and are then raised and judged after the Second Coming. The Jews are protected however for 1260 days because God promised Abraham an eternal seed on this earth. So, both before and after the Rapture, all men must come unto Christ Jesus the exact same way, by faith alone, so there is zero difference at any time in the way I look at the Jews and Gentiles, you conflate God's different calling's of the Church and Israel, I understand it. You and I can and do have different callings also etc. etc. but we both come to Christ Jesus by faith alone, nothing more, nothing less, but we are still two different people, just as Israel and The Gentles are two different entities.

The Church is in Heaven and returns with Jesus, we do not need to be saved when Jesus returns.

But it doesn't *remain a mystery!!!!* It is a revelation of the Church which already exists. Your so-called Rapture is a claim to still be a mystery! And what I'm saying is that the mystery that remains to be fulfilled is not a secret gnosis, but rather, a surprising revelation that is at odds with the way the world is presently.

As I stated, Paul said I tell you a SECRET.......the Rapture of the church was not a theme in the Jewish O.T.

You conflate two different issues, the taking of the Gospel unto the Gentiles and the Rapture of the Church are different subjects, trying to prove Peter was given the OK before Paul (I doubt that anyway) means nothing juxtaposed against the facts that Paul was given the Rapture Secret, which will be mostly about the Gentiles, but of course not only about the Gentiles.

You have this totally wrong. Jesus' Revelation as given to John was after the Cross, and thus no longer just to the Jews. Before the Cross Jesus ministry was exclusively to the Jews. This has *absolutely nothing to do with the Rapture!*

The Church is in Heaven during much of the Revelation, no one is speaking about the facts of the gentiles being a part of God's plans in 90 AD anyway, John had Churches in Asia-minor that he ministered unto, the point was Paul was given he mission of taking the Gospel unto the Gentiles, of course others saw this was of God and did the same, I don't think 90ish AD qualifies as beating Paul to the punch in 40ish AD.

So now the Rapture is revealed, and no longer a secret? I thought it's reserved only for the "enlightened" until the Secret Rapture happens, and the blind fall into the abyss of the Tribulation? ;)

But now you're telling me that you're "enlightened" because you declare you "know* there's a Pretrib Rapture coming, and that the Church is a mystery that most everybody but you "guesses about," and only you choose to believe and declare? Nonsense. How deceived can one be?

I know I am enlightened by the holy Spirit else I would still be serving the devil and this evil world.

No one guesses anything, we know.....and a few people seemingly don't know. When I was growing up you rarely saw anyone who didn't understand the Rapture was Pre Trib. It is what it is. I can destroy every understanding that is not Pre Trib, and do so on a routine basis. Of course most people are too sold out to their own ideas to see God's truths in these end times. Take for instance you trying to deny that Dan. 12 does not show that the Troubles are end times, not 70 AD, the Dead are Raised and Judged in Dan. 12:1-2, even you know that is end times by now brother. So, if you want to call me deceived go right ahead, but here you are arguing what you know is a defeated point, all because you can't admit you were wrong on the issue. And you know this is true. You lost that point but can't admit it because it throws everything out of kilter for you.

 

[Oseas]

This is one possible interpretation, as I see it. Rome may have "confirmed the 70th Week covenant" by putting Jesus to death. That is, the Roman ruler adjudicated at Jesus' trial, delivering him to be executed, thus fulfilling biblical prophecy. In the midst of the 70th Week Pilate ended the sacrifices of the Law by putting the Messiah to death, thus rendering the Law nil.

Jesus, the Messiah, was said to come *after* the 69 Weeks. Thus, he came in the 70th Week to fulfill the covenant in his death. It was then, after the 70th Week was completed in the midst of that Week that the Roman Army came to desolate the city and the sanctuary, which was in 70 AD.

Dan 9.26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One [Messiah] will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come [Rome] will destroy the city and the sanctuary [70 AD]. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He [Rome] will confirm a covenant [fulfill the Law] with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering [invalidate the Law]. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation [the Roman Army], until the end that is decreed is poured out on it [the 70 AD destruction of the temple].

I consider this a very possible interpretation. Vs. 27 is a recapitulation of vs. 26.

Vs. 26: After 69 Weeks--Messiah in the 70th Week. Messiah killed. Jerusalem destroyed.
Vs. 27: Rome confirms biblical prophecy of the Messiah in the 70th Week. Temple destroyed.

Your interpretation is good for nothing, it is a FALSE and satanic interpretation, it is like the vinegar of that one that ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave JESUS to drink.

Daniel 9:.26-27-CJB- WHAT PREVAILS IS THE WORD OF GOD. The Word is GOD.

V.26 - Then, AFTER (yeah AFTER) after the sixty-two weeks, MASHIACH will be cut off and have nothing.The people of A PRINCE (YEAH A PRINCE) yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over. (This has nothing to do with the destruction of Israel in the year 70AD, AS FOLLOWS WITH SOME QUESTIONS:

V.27 He (he WHOM? the PRINCE; who is he?) he will make a STRONG COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week [of years]. (THE WEEK 70th)
Do you see? This SATANIC PRINCE will RULE the last week, the week 70th, BY ENTIRE. And he will make a strong COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week[of years]. (This prince was/is not a contemporary of JESUS, absolutely)

What kind of strong COVENANT the satanic PRINCE will make with leaders? Who are these leaders? By the way, the week 70th Daniel 9:v.27 will be divided in two periods of 3,5 years by the evil Prince. What will happen in the FIRST half of the week 70th? Revelation 11:v.2 and Revelation 13:v.5 under the RULE of the evil PRINCE.
In this POINT, that is, AFTER the END of the week 62, the prophecy is still to the beginning of the week 70th, and A PRINCE will start to work in his strong COVENANT with leaders;

Therefore, in this point the FIRST half of the week 70th isn't started yet, it is I would say in stand by until this current time, and the STRONG COVENANT of the satanic PRINCE with the LEADERS will take place or will be applied for ONE WEEK I believe in this current decade, there is a period of time AND EVENTS called as FIRST AND SECOND HALFS of the last week - the week 70th Daniel 9:v.27- that WILL be RULED by the EVIL PRINCE.

... he -the EVIL PRINCE- shall confirm the COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK he-THE EVIL PRINCE-shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Scripture does not say JESUS was crucified IN 29 AD, many people are saying that, not Scripture. What Scripture says is that AFTER, yeah, AFTER the week 62 plus 7 the Messiah is"cut off" - crucified .

JESUS was not crucified neither in the week 69, because the week 69 ended in 34 B.C., so JESUS was not crucified in the week 69th but AFTER the END of week 69, but also was not crucified in the midst of the week 70th, who says this is lying, it's a devilish lie, this week 70th is/will be RULED by the EVIL PRINCE by the entire. The evil Prince was not a contemporary of JESUS, absolutely. THE evil Prince will manifest himself in this CURRENT decade, that is between 2020 to 2030, and the period of 7 years is within this current decade.

Be careful OR get ready, for the CHASTISEMENTS against the world of Devil is already running, and the PUNISHMENTS already started, and will NEVER END, it is for ever and ever. There is no place in the Kingdom of GOD to whosoever loveth and maketh the lie.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

As I said, interpretation is a science, and you lack the language skills necessary to translate here. All of the experts in the field that I read translate it differently--it's not a departure of the Church, but rather an Antichristian *apostasy!* It is a departure from the faith!

Is the Falling Away is a False Teaching?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end(now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can “Fall Away”, either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is a great understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3. (this understanding comes mostly from Dr. (Pastor) Tommy Ice's teachings)

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a “Falling Away” from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1500 some odd years at the time the 1611 KJV was written.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Is the Falling Away is a False Teaching?
I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end(now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can “Fall Away”, either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is a great understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3. (this understanding comes mostly from Dr. (Pastor) Tommy Ice's teachings)

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a “Falling Away” from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

I don't know--I'd have to ask my brother about this, who is somewhat knowledgeable about the Greek. Frankly, however the word may be used, noun or verb, what is essential is to determine how the word is being used *in context.* There is nobody I know of who would describe this as a "departure" from the earth by the Holy Spirit or by the Church except Pretribbers. Yes, for the entire history of the Church, I don't think any scholar would've interpreted it this way, Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.

And the reason is simple. The basic theological point Paul wishes to make is that the Christians nearby are premature in their expectation of Christ's return for the Church. They actually believe that in some sense Christ and his Kingdom have already come, and the activity of the Kingdom is already on the earth, much as any Christian cult may claim the Kingdom of God is already active through them on the earth.

If then Paul argues that the revelation, and demise, of Antichrist must *precede* the coming of Christ for the Church, then it is hardly justified in the context to assume that there will be a Departure of the Church *before* the revelation and demise of Antichrist! This is just common sense. And for most of Christian history, there was no Pretrib theology or movement.

To insert Holy Spirit into the talk about the Restrainer is foreign to the text. To insert the Rapture of the Church into the "departure" Paul speaks of is foreign to the text. Paul is not speaking of a departure from the earth at all, but rather, the Antichristian movement that must *precede* the coming of Christ for the Church.

This Antichristian movement will be a departure from the faith, and not a departure from the earth. A departure from the earth makes no sense, and there is no precedent for it in the most important eschatology in the OT, which is in Dan 7. That's where the Son of Man comes down from heaven to establish the Kingdom of God on earth. Since this happens, in the story, *after* the reign of Antichrist for 3.5 years, this is clearly Postrib theology.

....So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

Not at all. In context, the rise of Antichrist has to do, logically, with the departure from the faith accompanying that. And the Christian West has been departing from the faith gradually for several hundred years now. These are nominal Christians who are abandoning the faith. They are not genuine born again believers. They were raised in a Christian society, and are vulnerable to the winds of change propagated by anti-Christian men of influence.

"When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" There is a departure of the faith going on in former Christian countries. And the Antichrist will come on the wings of this movement away from true religion.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No, you've utterly failed to show that Israel repents, as a *nation,* prior to 1260 days, or even prior to Christ's Return! Sorry!

Well tbh, later in your replies you did address all of the points. Moving on, I have indeed proven Israel repents before the Day of the Lord, Zechariah 13:8-9 and 14:1 proves that 100 percent. Malachi 4:5-6 proves that 100 percent because the Prophet stated Israel will repent before the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord. The fact that Israel heeds Jesus' voice in Matt. 24:15 and flees Judea also proves they must have repented because why else would they be listening to Jesus.

I mean do you try to think these things through logically brother? Please, explain to me why the Jews would heed Jesus and flee Judea as they see the AoD ? Please !! Because there is only one reason that they would heed his voice, they have to be reading Matt. 24:15-17 or listening unto the Two-witnesses. And they will not be reading the New Testament unless they have repented, Jews do not read the New Testament !! Facts. The facts are the facts, I can walk you through THE TIMING, and you can ignore these timings, but the timing shows exactly when they repent, of course that would make your understanding erroneous, and most people don't like being wrong, its our nature.

Are you changing the narrative now? What is the difference between "conversion before 1260 days" and "conversion before 1260 days?"

I am just saying, they may call it Judaism, in other words if they had of accepted their Messiah in 33 AD or 70 AD I doubt they would have taken on a Greek (Christ) name. They may just all themselves Messianic Jews, or Jews who have repented and accepted the Fathers sacrifice, remember, the Jews are the Bride of the Father, they married Him long ago. In Revelation it says the 144,000 has the Fathers name imprinted on their foreheads. So, I knew your point, but I hate labeling people when I am unsure of what exactly they really are. I think they are the Fathers Bride and we are Jesus' Bride tbh.

This is a prime example of your importing other passages into the passage you are discussing, and thus confusing the message. You can't draw a reasonably-sure conclusion with this kind of importation! Dan 12 mentions 3.5 years, which we know from Revelation is the same as the 1260 days. But nowhere is it said that Antichrist conquers Jerusalem at this time. Zechariah 14 says "half" of the city falls, leading to the city's complete deliverance! And this happens *at the Return of Christ,* and not before!

I don't think I have ever heard a Christian worry as much as you do about cross referencing scriptures, that is what God INTENDED (pulling my hair out yikes !! ), Do you not understand that? I mean I am utterly astonished you don't get that all 66 books in the bible were actually written by the holy spirit and thus they match up and doing so is what we are supposed to do in order to prove the Holy Spirit wrote these books, not a bunch of humans per se, which of course would mean its not a holy bible.

I proved exactly what I stated brother, and you know it. If you revealed a new truth like that to me I would be jumping up and down saying, glory, the Lord has taught me great things today. I don't care about being wrong, the holy spirit tells me all they time, you are wrong Ron.

Zechariah. 14:1 says Behold the DAY OF THE LORD has arrived. Zechariah 13:8-9 says Israel (1/3) repents and God brings them through the fire and that 2/3 will perish. That's 10 million Jewish deaths. We can quibble about the battle etc. all we want brother, its the TIMING that matters in this case, and that is all that matters.

It most certainly says in Dan. 12 the holy peoples are scattered for a time, times and half, John even uses that exact terminology in Rev. 12. Its 100 percent proved that Israel repents before the DOTL, now don't feel bad, I have seen big time preachers who do not get this. If we ever get to the book of Revelation, and I write down what the order is, if you grasp it, you will probably see the timing of these things much better. Revelation really confuses almost every one as per the timing. It confused me for nigh 30 years....

And so you can't prove your claims by explicit biblical theology and expect that it's okay to declare your biblical claims as legitimate because...you wish to do so? Good argument!

My blogs are biblical, no use in wasting the effort when I have a blog that shows the 70th week is yet to come. Again, tags mean nothing to me. It just makes me understand why Jesus chose unlearned disciples over so called intelligent men. I know the bible they know how to try and figure things out in their own human minds, while I have the Holy Spirit (God) teaching me, I will take the latter every day.

Balance: God here teaching me vs. Scholars with peon brains.

You do the math !! :cool:

Again, I said I'm not clear on the 1/3 who are delivered part. None of it means that Israel *as a nation* is delivered or converted prior to Christ's Return. Certainly, a remnant is preserved.

So, you are not sure but you are telling me you are sure at the same time. As Opie Taylor once told Andy, Pa, you sure are mixin me up.

The passage about Elijah coming before the Day of the Lord was fulfilled in John the Baptist. And that certainly was *not* the *nation* coming to the Lord in repentance. In the end, relatively few maintained their repentant attitude.

No it wasn't, this is MEN not understanding the bible and thus starting bad traditions that get passed down as truths, thus thereby confusing the masses. Luke 1 clears all this up.

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John............

16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

People confuse the Jesus verses about John the Baptist, he was not saying he was Elijah the Prophet, he had some of John disciples, he grieved for John being in prison and being killed, so when he spoke of him, he said there was not a greater man who ever lived, then he said if you can receive it he was Elijah come again, but we know men can only be born once and then the judgment, we know Elijah was with Jesus at the transfiguration, he has a Glorious body already. Jesus was just telling his Disciples, some who were disciples of John, that he had done the exact same thing Elijah is going to do, (but the people didn't not repent in full), in other words, he did not fail, Jesus wanted them to know he was a great man. Thus he says, he was for Elijah to come, meaning he called the people unto repentance just as good as Elijah will, but it was not time for Israel to repent yet when John came.

The angel above tells us, John came in the spirit of Elijah. He was not Elijah, this is how we go down bad paths and gets conflated on issues.

And please, please quit using your "calling" as an excuse to assert things without biblical authority. It's fine that you bring forth biblical arguments. But when I ask for explicit biblical statements, don't say, "I'm called, and I choose to declare what I believe, regardless of whether I can bring forth explicit statements or not."

My calling is my calling and I will never give up my testimony for no one. You be you, and let me be me. And I have brought forth only arguments that prove my positions 100 percent.

Even with my horrendous wordsmithing abilities.

But that's what I said before you said what you said! That's what confused me! What I said was that before the N. Kingdom went into exile, many from the 10 tribes had migrated south into Judah. So Judah became the repository of all 12 Tribes, and the temple worship began to reflect that.

Read Ezra and Nehemiah. They began to be called "the Jews" after the Babylonian Captivity because they were the remnant of the S. Kingdom that was restored. That is where the temple worship was, and that had to be restored first. But though they were called "Jews," they represented at that point in time all 12 tribes.

I'll have to get back with you....

Well, that's the whole point, no tribes were ever lost. Seed from each tribe has always been in Israel, but when they went into the Diaspora, they were just all called Jews (from Judah), but they were never lost.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Dan 12.1 occurs immediately following reference to Antiochus--there is no chapter/verse divisions in the original writing. So what is being stated is that immediately after Antiochus dies, Michael has to arise to protect Israel. And what was the danger after Antiochus died? It was the rise of Rome.

The reason the account jumps ahead to the last days, when the 3.5 years of Antichrist takes place, is because the time of trouble being talked about extends from Antiochus to the 2nd Coming! This is the Great Punishment of the Jewish People Jesus talks about in his Olivet Discourse. It was when Rome arose after Antiochus that the temple worship was eventually crushed, leading to an age-long "Tribulation" of the Jewish People.

Not so, Daniel 11:36-45 is about the End Time Anti-Christ. He does not conquer Rome again, he was not forbidden from conquering Edom, Ammon an Moab (The Petra/Bozrah region).

This is the END TIMES when people are being raised and Judged. Nothing in Daniel 11 is about the Romans, its all about the Greek lineage. You are just trying against all hope, to escape the Check Mate, just knock the king over man. Its over, Dan. 12:1-2, Rev. 12 and Matt 24:15-21 all match up.

Good grief!

Just a little levity to keep us sane brother.

Half way through the 70th Week is still *after the 69th Week!*

Its says after 69 weeks, which means exactly to the day, not 69 1/2 weeks.

I think it is very possible that the people of the prince to come are the Romans, and that the prince, ie the Roman leader, confirms the covenant of the Law by having Christ killed. These are open questions to me. It does seem that if I'm to be consistent, and view the "prince" as the Roman leader, then he is the one who is confirming God's covenant by having Christ killed, and ultimately the temple worship desolated.

The AGREEMENT (covenant in Hebrew simply means an agreement) is between the Anti-Christ and Israel and THE MANY nations in the Mediterranean Sea Region. Why have you fallen for the "Covenant' having to be a Godly Agreement? It can just be between humans brother, its just a word.

OK, Good night, up late for a change, not feeling well today. God Bless.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well tbh, later in your replies you did address all of the points. Moving on, I have indeed proven Israel repents before the Day of the Lord, Zechariah 13:8-9 and 14:1 proves that 100 percent.

You've proven it only to your own satisfaction. In my view, your "proofs" are suspect and not without controversy.

For example, Zech 13 speaks of a third of Israel going through the fire and ultimately repenting. But it does not say *when* the repentance takes place. It does not suggest that "going through the fire" is itself the repentance, but merely, preliminary to the repentance. It is arguable whether the actual repentance takes place *before* Christ's Coming. In context it appears to me that the repentance actually takes place *at* Christ's Coming!

Zech 13.1 On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

On what day?

Zech 12.10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

And when do people look upon him who they pierced? It is at Christ's Coming, and not before!

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

This happens on the day of Christ's Return! So your so-called "proof" amounts to proof against your position! Your "proofs" amount to drawing false conclusions from the Scripture passages you cite.

Malachi 4:5-6 proves that 100 percent because the Prophet stated Israel will repent before the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord.

Once again, your "proof" text assumes what it wishes to prove, but actually consists of drawing false conclusions from the text. As I said earlier, this text in Malachi is explained by Jesus to be a reference to the work of John the Baptist, who prepared Israel by calling them to repentance. But we know from the history that many did not ultimately respond to that call to repentance. Relatively few remained as disciples of Jesus.

This is not the same thing as "national repentance!" The many passages in the Prophets referring to a national restoration describe it in terms of a *final* deliverance, which certainly did not happen when Rome presided over Israel's sovereignty.

The fact that Israel heeds Jesus' voice in Matt. 24:15 and flees Judea also proves they must have repented because why else would they be listening to Jesus.

The relative few in Israel who became Jesus' disciples and fled Jerusalem before 70 AD did not constitute a "national revival," nor a "national restoration."

I don't think I have ever heard a Christian worry as much as you do about cross referencing scriptures...

I believe that God gave me a key to avoid a lot of my misinterpreting Scriptures, and I got this from famed cult expert Walter Martin.

I listened to him a lot when he was still alive. He said that the Holy Spirit speaks clearly when He wants something to be understood dogmatically, as doctrine.

When we try to "fit things together," we do a disservice to the Holy Spirit sometimes. We think we can improve on the way He said things.

So I'm a bit fixated on keeping things in context, and not confused by too much cross-referencing. I think cross-referencing is, of course, legitimate. But not if it confuses the passage under discussion, confusing the particular context under consideration.

I make use of the entire Bible. I have a very broad biblical context for all that I believe. I'm sorry you fail to see that.

I proved exactly what I stated brother, and you know it.

No, I don't "know it!" You need to consider how I view your so-called "proofs." I am vey specific about my complaints, but instead of recognizing them, you just continue to claim you've "proven" everything, which I've shown you is not proven in my book. In fact, as I showed you, what you cited seems to disprove your position.

People confuse the Jesus verses about John the Baptist, he was not saying he was Elijah the Prophet...

Actually he did!

Matt 11.14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

The angel above tells us, John came in the spirit of Elijah. He was not Elijah, this is how we go down bad paths and gets conflated on issues.

Yes, Jesus was saying that John the Baptist fulfilled the role of Elijah, as the forerunner of Messiah.

My calling is my calling and I will never give up my testimony for no one.

You are free to claim what you will. My complaint is that you use your "calling" to validate your beliefs, which is illegitimate in my opinion.

Many people use their position and expertise to claim certain truths that are not valid. Proofs come not from claims of personal authority but rather from the arguments themselves.

We are to "test things" to ensure they are true and conform to apostolic doctrine. Unless we prove things by biblical reference, instead of to some assumed "personal authority," our proofs will not be valid.

I don't care whether God called you to study biblical prophecy or not. If you can't prove your beliefs to be biblical, they are illegitimate.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not so, Daniel 11:36-45 is about the End Time Anti-Christ. He does not conquer Rome again, he was not forbidden from conquering Edom, Ammon an Moab (The Petra/Bozrah region).

I answered your assertions already. In my view, the latter portions of Dan 11 refer to Antiochus 4. And I showed you how every point can apply to him.

The use of recapitulation is a normal literary device used in the prophetic Scriptures. There is nothing unusual about it.

To repeat things is normally used to reinforce something, to emphasize it. And the role Antiochus plays in Israel's history is important, and is reinforced.

He comes to defeat Egypt, then fails at a complete re-conquest, and ultimately turns on Israel. He initially tries to establish his own Hellenistic ways in Israel, but ultimately turns upon them with a vengeance after meeting up with the Roman ambassador, who humiliates him.

These details are summarized in the last portion of Dan 11, and fits Antiochus to a "t." It is then that Rome rises, giving cause for Michael the Archangel to protect the survival of the Jewish People so that ultimately, they may fulfill their promised place in God's promises.

Jesus described this period, when Michael rises to protect Israel, as the Great Tribulation, just as Daniel describes it in 12.1. It began under Rome, when Jerusalem was destroyed, and it will end with the Antichristian Empire.

During this time the Jewish People are "punished" with exile among the nations (Luke 21.22), until the time comes for them to return and eventually be restored spiritually.

This is the END TIMES when people are being raised and Judged. Nothing in Daniel 11 is about the Romans, its all about the Greek lineage.

You've already admitted that the Roman ambassador stopped Antiochus. If so, then this prophecy does infer the Romans are involved. Furthermore, this prophecy follows the prophecy of the 4th Beast in Dan 7, which I believe is Rome.

Its says after 69 weeks, which means exactly to the day, not 69 1/2 weeks.

"After 69 Weeks" does not require that the event being referred to must take place "the next day!" The 70th Week follows the 69 Weeks, and the mentioned event takes place in the middle of the 70th Week. That is still *after the 69 Weeks!*

I don't care for your "levity" to "keep things sane." It's disrespectful. That being said, I appreciate your diligence in attempting to answer my concerns. You've failed to do that, but at least you're trying. Again, you've proven nothing! How's that for "levity?" ;)