quietthinker
Well-Known Member
eisegesis is reading into the text what you want it to say.Is eisegesis mixing fantasy with reality to form a theory?
exegesis is discovering what the intent of the text is.
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eisegesis is reading into the text what you want it to say.Is eisegesis mixing fantasy with reality to form a theory?
Reality is what we material creatures perceive through our God-given senses. Our reality is not the reality of those who inhabit the spirit realm.How did Jesus come down if heaven isn't a place? In the spiritual world, we can move up, down, and sideways, can't we? And which is real, the spiritual world or physical world? Jesus did say that heaven and earth will pass away, but his words will not pass away (Matthew 24:35), suggesting to me that the spiritual world, and not the physical world, is reality.
You missed the point....”Our Father who art in heaven” gives God a location.We pray to "our Father" because he is our Creator, Life-Giver, and Savior.
Reality for a sinner is sin and the torment that accompanies that. Reality for a righteous person is righteousness and the peace that accompanies that.Reality is what we material creatures perceive through our God-given senses. Our reality is not the reality of those who inhabit the spirit realm.
We are not spirit beings but human beings with a spiritual side to our nature, which is what separates us from the animal kingdom. We are designed to worship our Creator.
You missed the point....”Our Father who art in heaven” gives God a location.
Your responses have hardly answered the OP....and hardly a scripture in sight....
Matthew 24:35 that you did mention, is part of Jesus’ prophesy on the end of the present world system under the devil’s control.
When Peter said that....”there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.” That doesn’t mean that the literal heaven and earth will be replaced....the scriptures assure us that God does not need to do that to eradicate wickedness. He used a flood before, but the earth was still in tact.
There is no need for the literal heavens to be replaced either.....why would God need to do that? It is just as he created it.
These are symbolic “heavens and earth”, meaning a new ruling arrangement that will operate from heaven as it originally did before Adam’s sin....and a new earthly society where no wicked ones will be found and all will be worshippers of the true God. Revelation 21:2-4 tells us what will be no more....
“ I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
This is speaking about God’s Kingdom ruling over the earth...with no more suffering, sorrow or pain....no death to cause grieving.....”the former things have passed away”. These things will be gone, but the literal earth and the heavens will stand forever.
4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?”
They existed before us, so they did not need to spend time here on earth to qualify for heaven.
Well, it saddens me to hear that you think God would reject a person based on intellectual capacity or disability. But for those without such disabilities, there is no excuse for ignorance.It appears to me many are on a bible trip here rattling off texts like it's a badge of honour. Pity the poor folk who are blind and are intellectually disabled...they would never make the grade!
Jesus was actually telling the Pharisees off because they were searching the scriptures for ammo to reject him as Messiah. They wanted to be saved by Law, but according to Jesus they didn't have a hope of ever doing so. "Gehenna" is not for the righteous.(Matthew 23:33)'You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.' John 5:39
I guess you must have missed the numerous quotes from the Hebrew scriptures that Jesus and his apostles made? The NT is full of them.Emotional involvement is not optional when it comes to knowing Jesus! ....and if we are to learn from him where on earth did he ever make his point by trucking out loads of texts?.....that was the exclusive domain of the 'religious'
Again, not a terribly accurate analogy....I suppose we could parallel it by quoting verses of Shakespeare to your spouse in the hope you would persuade them of your love.......sterile as an alcohol dipped scalpel.
Interesting how you hear things I'm not saying AJ. Perhaps its to do with your inability to hear the cryptic? Has it also to do with not being able to decipher sarcasm?Well, it saddens me to hear that you think God would reject a person based on intellectual capacity or disability. But for those without such disabilities, there is no excuse for ignorance.
Jesus was actually telling the Pharisees off because they were searching the scriptures for ammo to reject him as Messiah. They wanted to be saved by Law, but according to Jesus they didn't have a hope of ever doing so. "Gehenna" is not for the righteous.(Matthew 23:33)
I guess you must have missed the numerous quotes from the Hebrew scriptures that Jesus and his apostles made? The NT is full of them.
In the devil's temptations, each one Jesus answered with "it is written".....scripture is the only way we have to know God and his Christ. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) It is the same text for all....not something someone *thought* was the truth because they read it and interpreted it a certain way....the world is full of those people.....whom do you believe?
Again, not a terribly accurate analogy....
Hebrews 4:12-13....
"For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account."
So you tell me how important scripture isn't....
I just read what you write...as to what is supposed to be deciphered.....I am not a mind reader.....especially not of a mind that operates like yours.....Interesting how you hear things I'm not saying AJ. Perhaps its to do with your inability to hear the cryptic? Has it also to do with not being able to decipher sarcasm?
Spot on there....you mind works in riddles that I simply do not get.....I have read where others have this difficulty with you as well....so I'm guessing its not just me.....?Perhaps if I were to say I went to pick blackberries and saw they were red then knew they were green you would conclude I didn't know what I was saying or what has that got to do with the price of fish?
Like a lot of us Aussies, QT, I'm pretty thick skinned....but I'm not thick.......and finally, you may think I'm having a go you personally? No Ma'am, far from it!
Not sure what you are responding to here...? It does not seem to fit the quote at all. I was commenting on the fact that angels existed before material creation and therefore did not have to spend time on earth qualifying for heaven....as some seem to think we humans do.the cornerstone was laid in the first century.
Power to become sons of God was also given in the first century.
Maybe you could produce some Old Testament scripture where a particular man was referred to as a Son of God?
OK....so what is this verse saying in context? Its always good to put these verses where they belong in the surrounding scripture.Maybe this will help you?
Romans 8:14 KJV
[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
I feel sad for you AJ for if you can't decipher cryptic or allegorical language how will you ever understand Revelation or other prophetic utterances like those in Ezekiel or Daniel? Your only other option is to make wild guess's to what's being said or rely on the interpretation of those who can spin a good yarn that underpins their theology. Both are suspect because any smart operator can weave a suitable web for the undiscerning.....most of which don't or refuse to think for themselves.Spot on there....you mind works in riddles that I simply do not get.....I have read where others have this difficulty with you as well....so I'm guessing its not just me.....?
I feel sad for you AJ for if you can't decipher cryptic or allegorical language how will you ever understand Revelation or other prophetic utterances like those in Ezekiel or Daniel? Your only other option is to make wild guess's to what's being said or rely on the interpretation of those who can spin a good yarn that underpins their theology. Both are suspect because any smart operator can weave a suitable web for the undiscerning.....most of which don't or refuse to think for themselves.
what is the other option?....letting others think for you? Seems Judas succumbed to the influence of allowing others to determine his choices!'Thinking for yourself' is what got Eve into trouble......
OK...lets go back to the beginning of the nation of Israel .....did God ever allow the Israelites to "think for themselves"?what is the other option?....letting others think for you? Seems Judas succumbed to the influence of allowing others to determine his choices!
It leaves us to be responsible for what we choose......whether to make choices because we have arrived at a particular conclusion from our own convictions or whether we draw our conclusions following somebody else's lead.OK...lets go back to the beginning of the nation of Israel .....did God ever allow the Israelites to "think for themselves"?
After he liberated them from slavery in Egypt, what was the first thing he did? He invited them into a covenant with him. Did that involve 'thinking for themselves', or simply giving them instructions and expecting them to obey his commands?
Did you see what they did when Moses was too long in the mountain? They 'thought for themselves' and decided to worship a golden calf that they were used to seeing in Egypt, but they called this idol "Jehovah" and held a festival. Was that a good idea? How did God respond? He had them put to death.
Fast forward past a pathetic history of 'thinking for themselves' and suffering the punishments that God continued to send to them, until he finally brought his Messiah into the world...and then when Jesus came, the religious leaders made excuses to reject him and then had him executed. After giving Israel first dibs at becoming a 'Kingdom of priests and a holy nation', he was forced to take the kingdom away from them and give it to more deserving ones.....he cast them off. (Matthew 21:43; Matthew 23:37-39; Acts 15:14)
Acts 8:26-31 is the account of the Ethiopian Eunuch who was reading aloud from the book of Isaiah in his chariot. Phillip was urged to approach him, asking "do you know what you are reading?" His response was “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?” So this is how we learn...not just from reading the Bible and putting our own interpretation on it, but learning from the right teachers. God has provided them....we just have to find them.
The ancient Be·roeʹans were commended for making sure that everything they were taught was from the scriptures. (Acts 17:10-11) Christians also had to stick closely to God's word.....not making up their own minds about what it meant on an individual basis, but finding the right teachers and learning from them.
So in all the history of God's worshippers, never were they permitted to "think for themselves" on matter pertaining to worship.
There had to be a brotherhood of like-minded believers who met together to "incite to love and fine works". (Hebrews 10:24-25)
So there can be no 'lone rangers' in Christianity...if there is no brotherhood who all agree, you cannot call yourself a Christian. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
Conversely, just because there are some or even many who subscribe to your chosen beliefs, it's no guarantee that it will be the truth.
The devil was going to plant "weeds" which were to grow in the same field as the "wheat".....and this would continue from the end of the first century, right up until "the end".....when Jesus commands his angels to gather the "weeds" and destroy them, before gathering his "wheat" into his storehouse.
So how do we determine which is wheat and which is weeds? Jesus said, "by their fruits" or the kind of people they produce. These would be out in all the world fulfilling the great commission. (Matthew 28:19-20)
By our response to the Kingdom message, (the "witness" Christ's disciples were to give "in all the inhabited earth" "to all the nations". Matthew 24:14) God will see the heart's response and he will issue an invitation to that one to come into his global family of worshippers as a disciple of his Son. (John 6:44; 65)
No one comes to the Father except through the Son....and no one can come to the Son without an invitation from the Father.
Where does that leave us?
Are you saying that Heaven -- God's Heaven -- is NOT an actual place or region just because Christ said what He did in that verse?First, one must understand what heaven is. Most think it's some place you go to after you die, but if that is so, how do you explain Matthew 4:17: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."?
No one comes to the Father except through the Son....and no one can come to the Son without an invitation from the Father.
Where does that leave us?
I think heaven is what our lives turn into when we repent of our sin. "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 4:17)Are you saying that Heaven -- God's Heaven -- is NOT an actual place or region just because Christ said what He did in that verse?
When Jesus proclaimed that the Kingdom of Heaven was at a hand He meant several things: (a) the King from Heaven was physically present on earth and that in itself meant that the Kingdom of Heaven was "at hand", (b) believing on Him as the true King and Messiah would cause people to enter into the Kingdom of God, and (c) repentance was necessary in order to enter and see the Kingdom of God. Faith in Christ leads to the New Birth, and without that no one can see or enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (also called the Kingdom of God). Getting back to the title of this thread, all those who are born again will enter into Heaven -- either when they die or when they are raptured.
There is no need to conjure up an imaginary Heaven, but if this makes you happy, then fine.I think heaven is what our lives turn into when we repent of our sin. "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 4:17)
Yes, per Revelation 3:12, the place Jesus went to prepare for us, the 1500 mile long New Jerusalem, comes down to earth, where all those redeemed will dwell, with God and Jesus, forever.You use the term "Heaven" when Eternity is actually seen in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, this is described in Revelation chapters 21 & 22
New Jerusalem with those glorious streets of gold, river and tree of life, with fruit for food, its gonna be good!
Various other parts of scripture gives a glimpse, Ezekiel chapters 47-48 shows fish, fishermen, fishing nets, around the river of life
Isaiah 65 shows houses are built, vineyards are planted, animals are seen with the wolf and lamb feeding together, the lion eating straw like a bull
Looks like a return to the garden of eden, good thing there's fish and fishermen, I love to fish!
Jesus Is The Lord