quietthinker
Well-Known Member
eisegesis is reading into the text what you want it to say.
exegesis is discovering what the intent of the text is.
Who Goes to Heaven.....and What Will They Do There?
- Thread starter Aunty Jane
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
exegesis is discovering what the intent of the text is.
Reality is what we material creatures perceive through our God-given senses. Our reality is not the reality of those who inhabit the spirit realm.
We are not spirit beings but human beings with a spiritual side to our nature, which is what separates us from the animal kingdom. We are designed to worship our Creator.
You missed the point....”Our Father who art in heaven” gives God a location.
Your responses have hardly answered the OP....and hardly a scripture in sight....
Matthew 24:35 that you did mention, is part of Jesus’ prophesy on the end of the present world system under the devil’s control.
When Peter said that....”there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.” That doesn’t mean that the literal heaven and earth will be replaced....the scriptures assure us that God does not need to do that to eradicate wickedness. He used a flood before, but the earth was still in tact.
There is no need for the literal heavens to be replaced either.....why would God need to do that? It is just as he created it.
These are symbolic “heavens and earth”, meaning a new ruling arrangement that will operate from heaven as it originally did before Adam’s sin....and a new earthly society where no wicked ones will be found and all will be worshippers of the true God. Revelation 21:2-4 tells us what will be no more....
“ I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
This is speaking about God’s Kingdom ruling over the earth...with no more suffering, sorrow or pain....no death to cause grieving.....”the former things have passed away”. These things will be gone, but the literal earth and the heavens will stand forever.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Reality for a sinner is sin and the torment that accompanies that. Reality for a righteous person is righteousness and the peace that accompanies that.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
the cornerstone was laid in the first century.
Power to become sons of God was also given in the first century.
Maybe you could produce some Old Testament scripture where a particular man was referred to as a Son of God?
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Maybe this will help you?
Romans 8:14 KJV
[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:14 KJV
[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Well, it saddens me to hear that you think God would reject a person based on intellectual capacity or disability. But for those without such disabilities, there is no excuse for ignorance.
Jesus was actually telling the Pharisees off because they were searching the scriptures for ammo to reject him as Messiah. They wanted to be saved by Law, but according to Jesus they didn't have a hope of ever doing so. "Gehenna" is not for the righteous.(Matthew 23:33)
I guess you must have missed the numerous quotes from the Hebrew scriptures that Jesus and his apostles made? The NT is full of them.
In the devil's temptations, each one Jesus answered with "it is written".....scripture is the only way we have to know God and his Christ. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) It is the same text for all....not something someone *thought* was the truth because they read it and interpreted it a certain way....the world is full of those people.....whom do you believe?
Again, not a terribly accurate analogy....
Hebrews 4:12-13....
"For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account."
So you tell me how important scripture isn't....
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Interesting how you hear things I'm not saying AJ. Perhaps its to do with your inability to hear the cryptic? Has it also to do with not being able to decipher sarcasm?
Perhaps if I were to say I went to pick blackberries and saw they were red then knew they were green you would conclude I didn't know what I was saying or what has that got to do with the price of fish?
......and finally, you may think I'm having a go you personally? No Ma'am, far from it!
I just read what you write...as to what is supposed to be deciphered.....I am not a mind reader.....especially not of a mind that operates like yours.....
Spot on there....you mind works in riddles that I simply do not get.....I have read where others have this difficulty with you as well....so I'm guessing its not just me.....?
Like a lot of us Aussies, QT, I'm pretty thick skinned....but I'm not thick.
Not sure what you are responding to here...? It does not seem to fit the quote at all. I was commenting on the fact that angels existed before material creation and therefore did not have to spend time on earth qualifying for heaven....as some seem to think we humans do.
Can you clarify what you meant....? Or did you misunderstand?
OK....so what is this verse saying in context? Its always good to put these verses where they belong in the surrounding scripture.
Romans 8:12-17....
"So, then, brothers, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh; 13 for if you live according to the flesh, you are sure to die; but if you put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, you will live. 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."
So again, this is the elect speaking to their own.....only the elect will go to heaven and be glorified in a new body....only the elect are "saints" (holy ones)....only the elect are "adopted as sons".....they are "joint heirs with Christ" so they will experience a heavenly resurrection to reign with Christ in his Kingdom. Jesus calls them his 'brothers', whereas God calls them 'sons'. (Matthew 25:40, 45)
But as it is obvious to anyone reading, Paul also made it clear that not all who "call on the name of the Lord" are of the "heavenly calling". (Hebrews 3:1)
1 Corinthians 1:2....
"to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours".
These anointed ones serve alongside those who acknowledge Jesus as their Lord too, but do not have the heavenly calling.
So Romans 8 is talking about those who will have a more intimate relationship with God and Jesus in heaven than those who are their subjects on earth. Jesus died for all of us equally, because we are all Adam's children.
Those who are resurrected to heaven attain immortality, whereas those who live on earth in mortal flesh can attain to everlasting life. Immortality is impossible for material creatures because we need external means to stay alive.....oxygen, food and water. Spirit creatures have no need of these things.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I feel sad for you AJ for if you can't decipher cryptic or allegorical language how will you ever understand Revelation or other prophetic utterances like those in Ezekiel or Daniel? Your only other option is to make wild guess's to what's being said or rely on the interpretation of those who can spin a good yarn that underpins their theology. Both are suspect because any smart operator can weave a suitable web for the undiscerning.....most of which don't or refuse to think for themselves.Spot on there....you mind works in riddles that I simply do not get.....I have read where others have this difficulty with you as well....so I'm guessing its not just me.....?
Good grief QT......do you think that you are the only one who can decipher the cryptic things in the Bible?
I have other options that are apparently not open to you.....I have a whole global brotherhood who study the same Bible every week. We are doing a study in Ezekiel right now as a matter of fact.....so I am not left in the dark...nor am I at the mercy of my own understanding of the scriptures as the Proverb says.....
"Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, And do not rely on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways take notice of him, And he will make your paths straight.
7 Do not become wise in your own eyes." (Proverbs 3:5-7)
God does not leave his servants in the dark but the light shines on them and imparts wisdom and understanding to the whole brotherhood, via a "faithful and wise slave" whom Jesus appointed to "feed" his entire household their "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45).....so God doesn't reveal his truth to just one person who feels that they know what others don't....how many thousands claim to have this knowledge......but who is right?
Especially is this true in this "time of the end" when God said that an "abundance of knowledge" would be available to all....but only those who accepted the 'cleansing and refinement' that God said would take place at this time, would be given insight into the meaning of the scriptures. (Daniel 12:4:9-10)
'Thinking for yourself' is what got Eve into trouble......
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
what is the other option?....letting others think for you? Seems Judas succumbed to the influence of allowing others to determine his choices!
OK...lets go back to the beginning of the nation of Israel .....did God ever allow the Israelites to "think for themselves"?
After he liberated them from slavery in Egypt, what was the first thing he did? He invited them into a covenant with him. Did that involve 'thinking for themselves', or simply giving them instructions and expecting them to obey his commands?
Did you see what they did when Moses was too long in the mountain? They 'thought for themselves' and decided to worship a golden calf that they were used to seeing in Egypt, but they called this idol "Jehovah" and held a festival. Was that a good idea? How did God respond? He had them put to death.
Fast forward past a pathetic history of 'thinking for themselves' and suffering the punishments that God continued to send to them, until he finally brought his Messiah into the world...and then when Jesus came, the religious leaders made excuses to reject him and then had him executed. After giving Israel first dibs at becoming a 'Kingdom of priests and a holy nation', he was forced to take the kingdom away from them and give it to more deserving ones.....he cast them off. (Matthew 21:43; Matthew 23:37-39; Acts 15:14)
Acts 8:26-31 is the account of the Ethiopian Eunuch who was reading aloud from the book of Isaiah in his chariot. Phillip was urged to approach him, asking "do you know what you are reading?" His response was “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?” So this is how we learn...not just from reading the Bible and putting our own interpretation on it, but learning from the right teachers. God has provided them....we just have to find them.
The ancient Be·roeʹans were commended for making sure that everything they were taught was from the scriptures. (Acts 17:10-11) Christians also had to stick closely to God's word.....not making up their own minds about what it meant on an individual basis, but finding the right teachers and learning from them.
So in all the history of God's worshippers, never were they permitted to "think for themselves" on matter pertaining to worship.
There had to be a brotherhood of like-minded believers who met together to "incite to love and fine works". (Hebrews 10:24-25)
So there can be no 'lone rangers' in Christianity...if there is no brotherhood who all agree, you cannot call yourself a Christian. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
Conversely, just because there are some or even many who subscribe to your chosen beliefs, it's no guarantee that it will be the truth.
The devil was going to plant "weeds" which were to grow in the same field as the "wheat".....and this would continue from the end of the first century, right up until "the end".....when Jesus commands his angels to gather the "weeds" and destroy them, before gathering his "wheat" into his storehouse.
So how do we determine which is wheat and which is weeds? Jesus said, "by their fruits" or the kind of people they produce. These would be out in all the world fulfilling the great commission. (Matthew 28:19-20)
By our response to the Kingdom message, (the "witness" Christ's disciples were to give "in all the inhabited earth" "to all the nations". Matthew 24:14) God will see the heart's response and he will issue an invitation to that one to come into his global family of worshippers as a disciple of his Son. (John 6:44; 65)
No one comes to the Father except through the Son....and no one can come to the Son without an invitation from the Father.
Where does that leave us?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It leaves us to be responsible for what we choose......whether to make choices because we have arrived at a particular conclusion from our own convictions or whether we draw our conclusions following somebody else's lead.
If Jack say's I'm inspired by God to believe such and such, does that put you are under obligation to believe the same just because other sheeples you hang with bleet in his octave?
Eisegesis is the favourite pastime for many who claim inspiration.....of course, they also have a shoehorn business on the side.
Are you saying that Heaven -- God's Heaven -- is NOT an actual place or region just because Christ said what He did in that verse?
When Jesus proclaimed that the Kingdom of Heaven was at a hand He meant several things: (a) the King from Heaven was physically present on earth and that in itself meant that the Kingdom of Heaven was "at hand", (b) believing on Him as the true King and Messiah would cause people to enter into the Kingdom of God, and (c) repentance was necessary in order to enter and see the Kingdom of God. Faith in Christ leads to the New Birth, and without that no one can see or enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (also called the Kingdom of God). Getting back to the title of this thread, all those who are born again will enter into Heaven -- either when they die or when they are raptured.
That leaves every individual with FREEWILL.
Our DESIRES are established by our FREEWILL.
Some do not believe, and by their FREEWILL DESIRES are content.
Some do not believe, and by their FREEWILL DESIRES are NOT content.
There is a WARNING in Scripture about the VERY WEALTHY, whose DESIRES are met, with Wealth, Tangible possessions, Tangible comfort.
(Yet we see, even those with Wealth beyond measure, have personal heartaches, diseases, conflicts, downfalls, etc.)
The Son of God, arriving on Earth 2,000 years ago WAS THEN, and IS NOW,
A GIFT FOR Every single Individual person....NO individual is EXCLUDED....
The GIFT IS Every single Individual persons GIFT TO TAKE, POSSESS, HAVE FOREVER.
And going back to the FREEWILL DESIRE of every Individual Person...
Some reach out and TAKE THEIR GIFT.
Some DO NOT reach out and TAKE THEIR GIFT.
If you recall; God created Adam outside of the Garden, put Adam in the Garden and Set the Same Gift in the Garden For Adam to Freely by his own Desire to Reach out and TAKE the Gift....or NOT.
Adam Freely chose....NOT to reach out and TAKE the Gift.
The GIFT, is eternal LIFE WITH GOD.
Gen 2:
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
[8] And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
[15] And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat...
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it
Freely eat of ALL...warning to not eat of ONE.
Adam ate NOT of ALL given him.
Adam ate of ONE warned NOT to eat.
Adam’s flesh Covered, by God. (God Forgave them)
Adam BEING ESCORTED out of the Garden...AND STILL Adam could have...
Gen 3:
[21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Gen 3:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:
[24] So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Every individual has the SAME Offering. Accept Gods Forgiveness, Accept Gods Covering, Accept Gods Gift.......or NOT.
Point is......
Every individual has already been CALLED.
Every individual has to Freely Desire, Freely Choose to HEAR Gods Calling, ACT on Gods Calling....
Reach out and TAKE Gods GIFT FOR THEM or NOT.
Glory to God,
Taken
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I think heaven is what our lives turn into when we repent of our sin. "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 4:17)
There is no need to conjure up an imaginary Heaven, but if this makes you happy, then fine.
Yes, per Revelation 3:12, the place Jesus went to prepare for us, the 1500 mile long New Jerusalem, comes down to earth, where all those redeemed will dwell, with God and Jesus, forever.
There will be no 144,000 living in heaven, they will be in the new Jerusalem with the rest of the redeemed, with God, per Revelation 21.
No one will be in heaven, one day, as the following will prove:
When we die, we leave our home, the body, and depart to be with Jesus:
2Co 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,
2Co 5:3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
2Co 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
2Co 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
And the Lord Jesus is in heaven at the Father’s right hand:
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
John the revelator saw souls of the dead in heaven, God gives them robes:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(Note that the souls of the dead aren’t taking a dirt nap in the grave).
When Jesus returns to earth for the resurrection of the dead in Christ, He brings the souls with Him, to be reunited with their resurrected bodies;
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring WITH him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The city New Jerusalem will descend from heaven where all the redeemed, Jew and gentile.
Will dwell forever with God and Jesus:
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Jesus dwells there, on His throne, and as He promised, we will be there with Him, in that city:
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you,(the New Jerusalem city) I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
There you have it - no one will be in heaven but the angels - heaven comes down to earth, and we dwell there with God and Jesus, on the new earth, in the New Jerusalem.
Those elite 144,000 that the watchtower thinks will be in heaven for eternity, won’t be there, either.
:
:
When we die, we leave our home, the body, and depart to be with Jesus:
2Co 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,
2Co 5:3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
2Co 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
2Co 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
And the Lord Jesus is in heaven at the Father’s right hand:
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
John the revelator saw souls of the dead in heaven, God gives them robes:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(Note that the souls of the dead aren’t taking a dirt nap in the grave).
When Jesus returns to earth for the resurrection of the dead in Christ, He brings the souls with Him, to be reunited with their resurrected bodies;
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring WITH him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The city New Jerusalem will descend from heaven where all the redeemed, Jew and gentile.
Will dwell forever with God and Jesus:
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Jesus dwells there, on His throne, and as He promised, we will be there with Him, in that city:
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you,(the New Jerusalem city) I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
There you have it - no one will be in heaven but the angels - heaven comes down to earth, and we dwell there with God and Jesus, on the new earth, in the New Jerusalem.
Those elite 144,000 that the watchtower thinks will be in heaven for eternity, won’t be there, either.
:
:
Last edited:
Similar threads
