Paralambanetai

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stunnedbygrace

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Thank goodness I’m free from the IRS torture!

So, I poked around. Found some good papers. I agree these men make more sense, Ronald. All the root words help too.
 

Timtofly

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And this is what we don’t set a date on because no man knows when it will happen. But there surely will be men on earth in the tribulation who can come pretty darn close to being able to set a date for when Christ comes.
Which tribulation?

The one since the Cross or the one after the Second Coming? Matthew 24:4-9

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

This has been ongoing tribulation/trouble for the church since the Cross. No one has been successful in pointing out the end, a return, nor a Second Coming during this time.

What many seem to outright dismiss is the tribulation after the Second Coming when Christ is literally on the earth with the angels gathering the final harvest. Matthew 13 declares at the end Christ and the angels will be on the earth during a harvest of souls.
 

stunnedbygrace

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It’s all so much for my brain. I no longer remember if it was paralambano or harpazo that had a seizing connotation. Think it was harpazo.
This is paralambano.


  1. to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
    1. an associate, a companion
    2. metaph.
      1. to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
      2. not to reject, not to withhold obedience.

So…it answers a lot, like…taken where?? Taken to someone, joined to someone, acknowledged and accepted as being true in what you profess.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Which tribulation?

The one since the Cross or the one after the Second Coming? Matthew 24:4-9

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

This has been ongoing tribulation/trouble for the church since the Cross. No one has been successful in pointing out the end, a return, nor a Second Coming during this time.

What many seem to outright dismiss is the tribulation after the Second Coming when Christ is literally on the earth with the angels gathering the final harvest. Matthew 13 declares at the end Christ and the angels will be on the earth during a harvest of souls.

Im sorry, I didn’t follow you. I’m guessing…you are objecting to…a gathering together pre tribulation? Or…objecting to the belief in a 7 year tribulation?
 

Hidden In Him

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So…it answers a lot, like…taken where?? Taken to someone, joined to someone, acknowledged and accepted as being true in what you profess.

"Taken" as in raptured up to meet Jesus in the air, in keeping with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18. This is clearly what is being discussed in context.

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
 
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marks

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Oh…so…being seized as done by someone else…presumably the same one who came along beside?
Paralambano, in a middle voice, is to cause someone or something to be "received alongside one's self". HIH has given some good answers here.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Although… Paul said to the Galatians, remember, I told you, the man had to appear first…
Yes, but first before what? Not the "gathering to the Lord", but "the day of Christ", or, "day of the Lord", depending on your manuscript.

Much love!
 

stunnedbygrace

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"Taken" as in raptured up to meet Jesus in the air, in keeping with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18. This is clearly what is being discussed in context.

Yes. Although I prefer to say: the gathering together before the time of testing coming on the whole world. Lol. People throw such fits over the word rapture.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Yes. Although I prefer to say: our gathering together before the time of testing coming on the whole world. Lol. People throw such fits over the word rapture.

Sometimes battles can't be avoided. :)

I'm waiting for someone to give that wild interpretation where everything gets turned on its head and inverted, and says that the ones "taken" are the wicked, and that they are then thrown into the Lake of Fire for destruction. But that only works if you subscribe to a "raptured up with Jesus into the air, and then immediately raptured right back down to the earth to start the kingdom of God in the millennium" interpretation, LoL.

I don't go in for that one. Turns us into spiritual yo-yos, and I think the Lord plans things out a little better than that.
 
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marks

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"Taken" as in raptured up to meet Jesus in the air, in keeping with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18. This is clearly what is being discussed in context.

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Did Jesus prophesy the rapture of the church which Paul revealed as a mystery up until then?

Much love!
 

Timtofly

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Im sorry, I didn’t follow you. I’m guessing…you are objecting to…a gathering together pre tribulation? Or…objecting to the belief in a 7 year tribulation?
I am objecting to the fact that one can determine the point of the Second Coming.

No one knows the day or the hour.

Some teach that a leader will step forward, and when that happens, the Second Coming will follow.

The church is looking for the coming of the wrong individual. We should be looking for Christ the Prince. We should not be waiting for a so called antichrist, to point to the actual Second Coming.
 

Hidden In Him

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I am objecting to the fact that one can determine the point of the Second Coming.

No one knows the day or the hour.

Some teach that a leader will step forward, and when that happens, the Second Coming will follow.

The church is looking for the coming of the wrong individual. We should be looking for Christ the Prince. We should not be waiting for a so called antichrist, to point to the actual Second Coming.

Out of curiosity then, in simple terms how do you interpret 2 Thessalonians 2?

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the Day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
 

stunnedbygrace

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I am objecting to the fact that one can determine the point of the Second Coming.

No one knows the day or the hour.

Some teach that a leader will step forward, and when that happens, the Second Coming will follow.

The church is looking for the coming of the wrong individual. We should be looking for Christ the Prince. We should not be waiting for a so called antichrist, to point to the actual Second Coming.

Um…yeah, I think that’s what I said. No one knows when He will come to gather us. Now if you’re talking about when He will appear so every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him, once the tribulation begins and begins to play out, you could know when that would be pretty accurately.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Nice to meet you sister, I will make it easy on you I have a sorta blog I did on this a few years ago, but its basically just touching on Dr. Tommy Ice's teaching on this. (American Theologian)

Is the Falling Away a False Teaching?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can “Fall Away”, either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a “Falling Away” from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at what they thought were the "false teachings of Catholicism".

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away from the faith. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 some odd years.

Greetings, Ronald, and hello again.

I agree that "falling away" is a somewhat misleading translation, but I'd have to disagree with the contention that it refers to the rapture. The word "apostasia" should be translated out literally as "apostacy," and as your other citation shows, it refers to just that: religious apostasy.

“teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to apostatize from Moses.” (Acts 21:21).

It does refer to "departing" from something in a sense, but the word carries a more specific meaning of standing apart from others of a religious faith, which is the same way the word is still used today. The apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2 is a reference to when many Jews will apostatize from God on threat of death when the Antichrist assumes power in Israel, just as they did during the time of Antiochus IV.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Greetings, Ronald, and hello again.

I agree that "falling away" is a somewhat misleading translation, but I'd have to disagree with the contention that it refers to the rapture. The word "apostasia" should be translated out literally as "apostacy," and as your other citation shows, it refers to just that: religious apostasy.

“teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to apostatize from Moses.” (Acts 21:21).

It does refer to "departing" from something in a sense, but the word carries a more specific meaning of standing apart from others of a religious faith, which is the same way the word is still used today. The apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2 is a reference to when many Jews will apostatize from God on threat of death when the Antichrist assumes power in Israel, just as they did during the time of Antiochus IV.


A question concerning “falling away” it seems to be connected to “a stony heart” …(just an opinion) but there is no mention of where God said “I will removed the stony heart and give you a heart of flesh and a new spirit” ; it doesn’t say the new heart God gives does not endure (there is a root?) but instead the stony places where there is no root.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Matthew 13:20-21 seems to go even further with by and by when persecution and tribulation arises he is offended. “But he that received the seed into stony places the same is he that hears the word, and anon with joy receives it; [21] Yet hath he no root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, by and by he is offended.”

when tribulation and persecutions “arise”
Matthew 10:21-22 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. [22] And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

I’ve heard concerning the parable the stony places, a stony heart only speaks of the Jews? If that is so then why is it taught the falling away is on the horizon and among the gentiles?
 

VictoryinJesus

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And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death

brother shall deliver up the brother to death

do we see this happening even here on the board …brother against brother?
1 Corinthians 6:6 seems to say Even worse brother against brother going to law, head to head …”and that before the unbelievers”!