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Hidden In Him

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A question concerning “falling away” it seems to be connected to “a stony heart” …(just an opinion) but there is no mention of where God said “I will removed the stony heart and give you a heart of flesh and a new spirit” ; it doesn’t say the new heart God gives does not endure (there is a root?) but instead the stony places where there is no root.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Matthew 13:20-21 seems to go even further with by and by when persecution and tribulation arises he is offended. “But he that received the seed into stony places the same is he that hears the word, and anon with joy receives it; [21] Yet hath he no root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, by and by he is offended.”

when tribulation and persecutions “arise”
Matthew 10:21-22 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. [22] And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

I’ve heard concerning the parable the stony places, a stony heart only speaks of the Jews? If that is so then why is it taught the falling away is on the horizon and among the gentiles?

The above are some of the reasons why "falling away" can be a bit of a misleading translation. There are many that quote the verse as in reference to what is happening in the church right now, and how many are falling away from the true faith. The problem is that Paul was teaching the Thessalonians that the apostasy he was referring to was something they should be looking for, and specifically in connection with the arrival of the Antichrist. Only those who think the arrival of the Antichrist (and I am not among them) is imminent could therefore apply this verse to today. If it's a reference to the Jews then this puts the event father into the future, though the Muslims are certainly a threat that looms at all times. But among other things there would have to be a unified Islamic Caliphate on earth (and very powerful; an empire), and a treaty established between that empire and the nation of Israel, and also a literal temple rebuilt in Jerusalem for the Jews.

About those that interpret the stony ground as only speaking of the Jews, that's... almost racist, LoL. The first people to bear 30, 60 and 100 fold for the Lord Jesus Christ were all Jews, and continued to be for the better part of a decade until the gospel was finally preached unto the Gentiles.
 

Hidden In Him

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brother shall deliver up the brother to death

do we see this happening even here on the board …brother against brother?

I'm sure there may be a few here who literally would like to deliver a few others on this forum unto their death, LoL. :)

But if we are interpreting things strictly, the reference was to actually delivering people unto their deaths, not figuratively so in our hearts.
 

marks

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Not sure I understand your question, Mark.
If the gentile church was a mystery until it was revealed through Paul, then was Jesus prophesying about that hidden gentile church, or should He words be understood as referring to something else? Something that wasn't an "unrevealed musterion"?

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

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If the gentile church was a mystery until it was revealed through Paul, then was Jesus prophesying about that hidden gentile church, or should His words be understood as referring to something else? Something that wasn't an "unrevealed musterion"?

Much love!

Well He would have known that the rapture would include the entire church. The later understanding that this would include the Gentiles after that fact was simply an additional revelation concerning the matter, but it didn't change the meaning of the verse/ passage.
 

VictoryinJesus

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I'm sure there may be a few here who literally would like to deliver a few others on this forum unto their death, LoL. :)

But if we are interpreting things strictly, the reference was to actually delivering people unto their deaths, not figuratively so in our hearts.

delivering some unto prison…also is a literal prison only? Leading away captives…unto death and prison?

for example
2 Peter 2:18-19 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. [19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Some could apply it spiritually, but interpreted in its context, the verses were referring to literal imprisonment, yes.

Like literal beheaded which promotes that is what Christ has called us to? But what if what Christ calls us to is a different beheading?
 

Hidden In Him

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Like literal beheaded which promotes that is what Christ has called us to? But what if what Christ calls us to is a different beheading?

Victory, I am not completely averse to people spiritualizing the Biblical texts, so long as they can do so accurately. But I am a staunch advocate for interpreting the scriptures very strictly in light of their context, first and foremost. The reason is because few seem to understand what the scriptures are saying at their most basic level, hence why I tend to deflect from discussion of spiritualizing their meanings.
 

Ronald D Milam

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Hi Ronald, and welcome!
You have lot's of good information. Thanks for sharing.

"The great falling away" is so controversial! Have you wondered about those, today who are trying to teach we all serve the same God? This includes every religion except those who are true, Christ loving, scripture believing Christians.
This is a subject near and dear to the heart of a once awesome bible teacher. He has passed away but taught us on this in early 1990's.
I have recently come across a newer video showing this to be happening like, right now. What do you think of this as "the great falling away"...from the truth..?

The video is about 6 minutes long, they say that" ALL religions MUST come under God in unity...":

Well, of course Satan is united, you can also tell what Christians are deceived by joining them in these statements etc. Now, if they all wanted to come together to try and deal with hunger etc. well, that would be a worthy endeavor, but still I would never let my name or Church be associated with with any call that in any kind of way espoused that all religions are worthy and of God. That would be a non starter.

Now, me being an end time prophecy guy, I see things others are still kind of hoodwinked about, but that's my job, I don't have to work 40-50 hours a week and thus many do not have enough time to dig in as I do.

There is never going to be a world wide religion as we we think of it, or even as the wicked think of it. God sees Humanism as a religion, its the worshiping of oneself or of the collective human race over God. The Last Beast is basically an Atheist as Daniel 11:36-37 says. Those who worship the Dragon and the Beast in Rev. 13 do not understand they are "Worshiping Satan" but that is what all men do who conform unto this world, so God sees it as them worshipping the Dragon and his ways OVER God and His ways. Now, these men will worship the Beast (the man Beast/A.C.) in that they agree with him, notice how all the world is starting to agree with each other even when the facts say different on many things? That's a Satanic mindset, Russia, Russia, Russia, COVID 19.........., you name it these people all think alike, they think Transsexual men should be able to go in little girls bathrooms, it is nonsensical of course but they are all LOCKED IN, its Satanic, its here now. I was shown a vision in 1986 where I was running from some evil guys with 2 kids, and I hid behind a bush by a house and this "BOOMING VOICE" from above said, "The Man of Sin is Here" that is all that was said. So, he's been here awhile and his time is at hand.

Getting back, these Religions you see in the video will be WIPED OUT, they will kill all men who espouse any religion except Beast worship, they will kill Muslims also, which is why I expect a lot of Muslims to eventually convert during the trib week. So, that video is EYE CANDY by Satan, but that isn't how its going to go down. After the Rapture this man will kill all peoples who refuse to Worship him as the ONLY GOD. That is what Revelation 17:16 means, the Harlot = ALL False Religions of all time, the 10 (E.U.) and the Beast kill her off or destroys all religions save Beast Worship.

I do think men get far more evil in general, look around you, look at Romans chapter 1, we can see that now.

God Bless
 
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marks

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Well He would have known that the rapture would include the entire church. The later understanding that this would include the Gentiles after that fact was simply an additional revelation concerning the matter, but it didn't change the meaning of the verse/ passage.
This is where it gets interesting.

Jesus came offering the kingdom to Israel, coming as their Messiah, to be received as such. If this was a real offer, well, let me put it this way. There were no prophecies in the OT that would not have been fully fulfilled had Israel received Jesus their Messiah.

According to the OT plan for Israel, they would be the light to which all other nations would come. All the rest of the world, the gentiles, would have joined to Israel enter relationship with God. This was what water baptism was about. But when Israel persisted in her rejection of Jesus, God sent the gospel directly to the gentiles, and gave prophecies through Paul to this gentile church that now existed apart from Israel.

Jesus' prophecies concerned Israel, and would be fully fulfilled even had Israel received Jesus at Peter's preaching on Pentacost. Or even after that. They didn't, we know that, but God had not locked them in by prophecy saying they would not receive Him. He gave them a true and honest offer, even though knowing what would happen.

Let God be true and every man a liar. When Jesus offered the fulfillment kingdom to Israel, it was real.

Much love!
 
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Hidden In Him

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This is where it gets interesting.

Jesus came offering the kingdom to Israel, coming as their Messiah, to be received as such. If this was a real offer, well, let me put it this way. There were no prophecies in the OT that would not have been fully fulfilled had Israel received Jesus their Messiah.

According to the OT plan for Israel, they would be the light to which all other nations would come. All the rest of the world, the gentiles, would have joined to Israel enter relationship with God. This was what water baptism was about. But when Israel persisted in her rejection of Jesus, God sent the gospel directly to the gentiles, and gave prophecies through Paul to this gentile church that now existed apart from Israel.

Jesus' prophecies concerned Israel, and would be fully fulfilled even had Israel received Jesus at Peter's preaching on Pentacost. Or even after that. They didn't, we know that, but God had not locked them in by prophecy saying they would not receive Him. He gave them a true and honest offer, even though knowing what would happen.

Let God be true and every man a liar. When Jesus offered the fulfillment kingdom to Israel, it was real.

Much love!

I agree.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Victory, I am not completely averse to people spiritualizing the Biblical texts, so long as they can do so accurately. But I am a staunch advocate for interpreting the scriptures very strictly in light of their context, first and foremost. The reason is because few seem to understand what the scriptures are saying at their most basic level, hence why I tend to deflect from discussion of spiritualizing their meanings.

yes I understand but it gets tiresome when the only meanings worthy of discussion is the literal ones. Time and time again that is all that is discussed until it is discussed into the ground.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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The above are some of the reasons why "falling away" can be a bit of a misleading translation. There are many that quote the verse as in reference to what is happening in the church right now, and how many are falling away from the true faith. The problem is that Paul was teaching the Thessalonians that the apostasy he was referring to was something they should be looking for, and specifically in connection with the arrival of the Antichrist. Only those who think the arrival of the Antichrist (and I am not among them) is imminent could therefore apply this verse to today. If it's a reference to the Jews then this puts the event father into the future, though the Muslims are certainly a threat that looms at all times. But among other things there would have to be a unified Islamic Caliphate on earth (and very powerful; an empire), and a treaty established between that empire and the nation of Israel, and also a literal temple rebuilt in Jerusalem for the Jews.

About those that interpret the stony ground as only speaking of the Jews, that's... almost racist, LoL. The first people to bear 30, 60 and 100 fold for the Lord Jesus Christ were all Jews, and continued to be for the better part of a decade until the gospel was finally preached unto the Gentiles.

could be wrong but the verse about the stony ground is helpful(Imo). I have to look at life, at myself, and how it applies well. How God seems to know a heart of stone will not receive anything. Have you ever tried to talk to someone who has already decided they won’t hear it? I can relate to being offended, bitter, doubtful and hating correction and to me this is what He is speaking of as a heart of stone. It seems to fit even in Job where Job said God had made his heart soft. Vulnerable to hearing what or who?
 

Hidden In Him

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yes I understand but it gets tiresome when the only meanings worthy of discussion is the literal ones. Time and time again that is all that is discussed until it is discussed into the ground.

Accurately? I would say no.
Have you ever tried to talk to someone who has already decided they won’t hear it? I can relate to being offended, bitter, doubtful and hating correction and to me this is what He is speaking of as a heart of stone.

Yes. The verse applies to Gentiles, not just to the Jews.
 

Ronald D Milam

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Greetings, Ronald, and hello again.

I agree that "falling away" is a somewhat misleading translation, but I'd have to disagree with the contention that it refers to the rapture. The word "apostasia" should be translated out literally as "apostacy," and as your other citation shows, it refers to just that: religious apostasy.
That's not factually true, apostacy has replaced departure mistakenly, words evolve and change which is why we have to do our homework. What is Paul referring unto? The Thessalonians fearing they are in God's Wrath. Paul is saying do not fear because of what? Verse 1 tells us, we beseech (we ask urgently) via the Coming of the Lord that you do not fear that the Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) is at hand: NOTICE......By the coming of the Lord.

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech(Ask you urgently) you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away(DEPARTURE..........Pointing back to THE GATHERING unto Jesus) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

BY WHAT? By the coming of the Lord (Rapture). We ask you brothers not to fear(that you are in the Day of the Lord) because of the Coming of the Lord who will Rapture us. It doesn't matter who told you what (by word) or if someone sent you a letter and signed our name (as if by a letter as if from us). Let no one fool you into thinking this way brothers, THAT DAY (God's Wrath) can not come.....until the YOU PICK which one makes more sense in the passage again.........THAT DAY can not come until

1. The Departure of the Church that talked about Gathering unto Christ (which thus means they need not fear)

2.) The Departure from the Faith (which makes absolutely no sense in the context, AND since we do not know the day nor the hour of his return Paul would have had to of been lying unto them about not fearing)

Reread 2 Thess. 2 and point out unto me where any Departure of the Faith is spoken of anywhere in the whole passage. Its only a "Apostacy" because the Church of England and the RCC were bitter enemies, as they have shown through the ages and thus you have one Church trying to smear the other church.

If a book was written in 1850 and the word gay was used, and a modern day person that's say 20 years old read it they would think a person was a homosexual if that word was used, but WORDS MORPH. The word actually means happy.

APO means away from, in this instance Paul told the Thessalonians that we Beseech you by the COMING of the Lord and our GATHERING unto him, that you DO NOT FEAR. It is obvious Satan has twisted this verse in the bible and got the others after that to follow along and eventually morphed the word into a falling away [FROM THE FAITH] instead of a Departure from this earth.

The Pre Trib Rapture is going to happen very soon. God has His plans He is not going to change those plans because we don't quite understand everything. So, everyone needs to be ready now. Look around.

It does refer to "departing" from something in a sense, but the word carries a more specific meaning of standing apart from others of a religious faith, which is the same way the word is still used today. The apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2 is a reference to when many Jews will apostatize from God on threat of death when the Antichrist assumes power in Israel, just as they did during the time of Antiochus IV.

We have a standing on this earth brother. We can't place something in the context that is not there and Faith is never spoken of in the passage, a Gathering unto Jesus is spoken of.

God Bless, ponder on it brother. We will be out of here very soon.
 
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