Scriptural proof that Jesus was NOT "fully God"

[martinlawrencescott]

I think it would help to define what we mean by "being fully". In my opinion, our character defines who we are, which is something God didn't lose when he became a man. His direction, desires, and identity remained the same. Because he denied the right to the power and priveleges of being God can't make Jesus any less God in the flesh, since by his nature he had the authority to demand anything he wanted at any time.

Matthew 26:53
Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

If Jesus at any one point discontinued being fully God, he wouldn't be God ever.

Isaiah 43:
[sup]10[/sup] “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

Then we need to discuss what it means for God to be fully himself. What does it mean for any of us to be who we are? What is at our core, what about us can be changed/challenged that wouldn't affect our true identity?

 

[veteran]

I think it would help to define what we mean by "being fully". In my opinion, our character defines who we are, which is something God didn't lose when he became a man. His direction, desires, and identity remained the same. Because he denied the right to the power and priveleges of being God can't make Jesus any less God in the flesh, since by his nature he had the authority to demand anything he wanted at any time.

Matthew 26:53
Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

If Jesus at any one point discontinued being fully God, he wouldn't be God ever.

Isaiah 43:
[sup]10[/sup] “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

Then we need to discuss what it means for God to be fully himself. What does it mean for any of us to be who we are? What is at our core, what about us can be changed/challenged that wouldn't affect our true identity?

Christ defined the difference here...

John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(KJV)

The problem with those who fail to understand how Christ Jesus was fully God and fully man when He came in the flesh is from their failure to separate the two different operations of the flesh vs. spirit. We have both flesh and spirit. But Christ had flesh and... Spirit.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I believe in relying solely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning of Scripture.
I believe the church did not rely much on the Holy Spirit until about 100 years ago.This is when the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement began.

.

This is a curious belief. Have you read much of the Bible?

 

[John Zain]

I believe the church did not rely much on the Holy Spirit until about 100 years ago.
This is a curious belief. Have you read much of the Bible?

Yes, I've read where Paul warns about the doctrines of men creeping into the church.
What do you think all of the warnings about false doctrines are all about?
This obviously happened BIG TIME for, shall we say, 1600/1700 years.
Sure the Holy Spirit entered all people who became born again.
But, what was the condition of the churches, especially the church leaders.
Who has been leading the churches ... the leaders or the Holy Spirit?
And ditto for today ... in all denominations.
Would you care to discuss the doctrines of the Roman Catholic and
Eastern Orthodox churches over those many hundreds of years?
What do you think about all of the praying to Mary and the saints, etc.?

----------------------------------- for everyone --------------------------------------
I'm disappointed in the lack of opinions on the 3 verses I gave in post 1,
and on my subsequent more correct ideas in posts 40 and 56.
Okay, Jesus was "fully God" ... that has always been agreed upon by almost everyone.
But, why did the Holy Spirit have to be present for the miracles to be done?
.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

But, why did the Holy Spirit have to be present for the miracles to be done?[/color]

I think it has to do with the Jesus being fully man part. Using his deity to his advantage and manifesting his power by his own authority isn't what he came to do. He came to paint for us the picture of who man was meant to be, being fully obedient to God and the power and direction we can now be submitted to by the same Spirit that anointed him.

I think it has to do with the Jesus being fully man part. Using his deity to his advantage and manifesting his power by his own authority isn't what he came to do. He came to paint for us the picture of who man was meant to be, being fully obedient to God and the power and direction that we can now be submitted to, by the same Spirit that anointed him.

 

[aspen]

Yes, I've read where Paul warns about the doctrines of men creeping into the church.
What do you think all of the warnings about false doctrines are all about?
This obviously happened BIG TIME for, shall we say, 1600/1700 years.
Sure the Holy Spirit entered all people who became born again.
But, what was the condition of the churches, especially the church leaders.
Who has been leading the churches ... the leaders or the Holy Spirit?
And ditto for today ... in all denominations.
Would you care to discuss the doctrines of the Roman Catholic and
Eastern Orthodox churches over those many hundreds of years?
What do you think about all of the praying to Mary and the saints, etc.?

----------------------------------- for everyone --------------------------------------
I'm disappointed in the lack of opinions on the 3 verses I gave in post 1,
and on my subsequent more correct ideas in posts 40 and 56.
Okay, Jesus was "fully God" ... that has always been agreed upon by almost everyone.
But, why did the Holy Spirit have to be present for the miracles to be done?
.

Boy, the Church that Jesus started and promised that not even Hell could destroy it, sure turned out to be weak and pathetic in your mind......what a paper tiger.

 

[John Zain]

I think it has to do with the Jesus being fully man part.
Using his deity to his advantage and manifesting his power by his own authority isn't what he came to do.
He came to paint for us the picture of who man was meant to be, being fully obedient to God
and the power and direction we can now be submitted to by the same Spirit that anointed him.

But, He had a lot of fun freaking the boys out by coming to them via walking on the sea.
And etc.
MLS, I think He came to preach the Gospel with signs and wonders following
(to authenticate the Truth of what He was preaching).
And this is what God's evangelists do today all over the world.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

But, He had a lot of fun freaking the boys out by coming to them via walking on the sea.
And etc.
MLS, I think He came to preach the Gospel with signs and wonders following
(to authenticate the Truth of what He was preaching).
And this is what God's evangelists do today all over the world.

Ya, I hope it wasn't all work and that He could at least enjoy the looks on the disciple's faces before they realized it was Him.

But I think I agree on this point.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Yes, I've read where Paul warns about the doctrines of men creeping into the church.
What do you think all of the warnings about false doctrines are all about?
This obviously happened BIG TIME for, shall we say, 1600/1700 years.
Sure the Holy Spirit entered all people who became born again.
But, what was the condition of the churches, especially the church leaders.
Who has been leading the churches ... the leaders or the Holy Spirit?
And ditto for today ... in all denominations.
Would you care to discuss the doctrines of the Roman Catholic and
Eastern Orthodox churches over those many hundreds of years?
What do you think about all of the praying to Mary and the saints, etc.?

----------------------------------- for everyone --------------------------------------
I'm disappointed in the lack of opinions on the 3 verses I gave in post 1,
and on my subsequent more correct ideas in posts 40 and 56.
Okay, Jesus was "fully God" ... that has always been agreed upon by almost everyone.
But, why did the Holy Spirit have to be present for the miracles to be done?
.

False doctrines have been around since the dawn of time. It was pretty cut and dry for Jews for thousands of years. Later for Christians who were new to God, and for Jews who were new to Christ, it wasn't so cut and dry. I think it was easier to mislead or misunderstand at first, I'd imagine there was lots of confusion. Today, there's still lots of confusion, but, It seems to me that we've all been lead by the Holy Spirit.

If anything, I would actually say that people have listened to the Lord less in the past couple hundred years. As soon as people realized how they can control illiterate people with fear.

 

[aspen]

False doctrines have been around since the dawn of time. It was pretty cut and dry for Jews for thousands of years. Later for Christians who were new to God, and for Jews who were new to Christ, it wasn't so cut and dry. I think it was easier to mislead or misunderstand at first, I'd imagine there was lots of confusion. Today, there's still lots of confusion, but, It seems to me that we've all been lead by the Holy Spirit.

If anything, I would actually say that people have listened to the Lord less in the past couple hundred years. As soon as people realized how they can control illiterate people with fear.

Actually the Jewish people wrote a lot of Pseudepigrapha - it is interesting stuff.

 

[Duckybill]

Thats right Ducky, Thomas recognized Jesus was fully God after his resurrection lol....

You mean He wasn't God and then He was God?

If Jesus at any one point discontinued being fully God, he wouldn't be God ever.

Exactly!

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Actually the Jewish people wrote a lot of Pseudepigrapha - it is interesting stuff.

What is that?

 

[[email protected]]

Scripture says that ...
Jesus was NOT going around being "fully God" and able to do everything himself.

Even though Jesus, the man, had God * within him,
He still was a man and needed a lot of help from the Father and the Holy Spirit.
* It's my understanding that he had the Second Person of the Triune God within Him.

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives (of Satan)
and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed (by demons)

Luke 5:17
Now it happened on a certain day, as He (Jesus) was teaching,
that there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by,
who had come out of every town of Galilee, Judea, and Jerusalem.
And the power of the Lord was present to heal them (the multitudes).

Hebrews 10:38
... how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power,
who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil,
for God was with Him.

It is also my understanding that Jesus was NOT "fully man"
because since he was "without sin", he did not have man's sin nature.​

Jesus died like a man; bloody and persecuted and shamed.
There is not one single historical document within the Biblical record or even of secular records of the time which deny it.
If it were possible for Jesus' enemies to do so, they would have. Remember that they hated Him enough to railroad Him to the cross.

Jesus forgave sins.
None but God can do that; no angel, no priest, no would be pretender to the throne of the Almighty.

Jesus rose from the dead.
In all of history for all religions on the planet, none record the execution and bodily resurrection from the grave as this single account.

To say that Jesus is not fully man discredites His death upon the cross and brings to nothing his sacrifice for the sins of man.

Your 'understanding' is flawed by unfounded preconceptions - not fact and not by scripture.

 

[aspen]

What is that?

It is a library of the Jewish Apocrypha - some of it is Gnostic. It is a collection of writings that didn't make it into the Jewish Bible. Maccabees 3 and 4; Lilith, Adam's first wife.....stuff like that

 

[Templar81]

Any excuse for Catholic bashing.

 

[veteran]

But, why did the Holy Spirit have to be present for the miracles to be done?

All one need do is read the Scriptures and think a little bit...

Matt 3:13-17
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized of Thee, and comest Thou to me?"

Why would John the Baptist declare that he himself needed to be baptized by Jesus instead?

You don't see John giving a response like, "OK Lord, I know You've got to receive The Holy Spirit first before You can have Power to fulfill Your Work, so let us go down to the river and get this over with."

Where is it written anywhere... in God's Word that Jesus HAD to be baptized to receive The Holy Spirit in order to fulfill His Works? That idea is simply an idea of men, trying to place limitations upon Jesus Christ.


15 And Jesus answering said unto him, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he suffered Him.
16 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased."
(KJV)

By John recognizing that instead he had need of being baptized by Jesus, and Jesus telling him, "Suffer it to be so now", what did that show why Jesus got baptized of water by John?

It was to set an example, for us. He didn't do it because He had need of it. That's why John refused to do it at the first. John the Baptist knew better.

 

[John Zain]

If Jesus wasn't fully God then how could his death and ressurrection atone for OUR sins?

I am also somehat confused about this.

It is my belief that the #1 PRIORITY was for a sinless human to be our substitute, i.e. die for our sins.
If this is true, why did sinless Jesus (our substitute) need to be fully God to die for our sins?

But, He did need to be fully God (with no sin nature) in order for Him to overcome all ... without sinning.

And this is why the miraculous Conception was necessary, involving the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary.

Interesting, eh? (Yes, I'm Canadian)

 

[veteran]

It is my belief that the #1 PRIORITY was for a sinless human to be our substitute, i.e. die for our sins.
If this is true, why did sinless Jesus (our substitute) need to be fully God to die for our sins?

If you have to ask that, then it suggests you don't really believe that only Jesus Christ can save us. Your idea opens up false belief that another besides Jesus Christ might also have been sinless.

But, He did need to be fully God (with no sin nature) in order for Him to overcome all ... without sinning.

And this is why the miraculous Conception was necessary, involving the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary.

If you believe Jesus did need to be "fully God" to overcome all without sinning, then why have you denied that He was fully God while in the flesh in your previous posts?

 

[John Zain]

It was to set an example, for us.

Jesus depended on Father God’s words, instructions, etc.
John 3:22 “And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies …”
Do verses such as 3:22 refer to Jesus in heaven? or Jesus on earth in prayer?
John 8:26 “… I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”
John 8:28 “… I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.”
John 8:40 “… a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God.”
John 10:18 “This command I have received from My Father.”
John 14:31 “… and as My Father gave Me commandment, so I do.”
John 15:15 “… for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.”
John 5:19 “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself …”
But 5:19 means: action by the Son apart from the Father is impossible because of their total unity.

Jesus depended on the Holy Spirit’s power to perform miracles
Matthew 12:28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God …”
Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel
to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives (of Satan)
and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed (by demons)”
Luke 5:17 “… He (Jesus) was teaching … And the power of the Lord was present to heal them.”
Acts 10:38 “… how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power,
who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”

We've already postulated that ...
Jesus did MANY things (e.g. praying, miracles, etc.) as EXAMPLES for us to follow.

Since the Bible says God was born on the earth, God was manifested in the flesh, etc.
the "examples" hypothesis seems to be the only reasonable explanation.
But, let's not pretend that this is commonly understood.
However, I'm still looking for other theories on the subject.
By the way, there are several holes in your post #96.

 

[John Zain]

If you have to ask that, then it suggests you don't really believe that only Jesus Christ can save us. Your idea opens up false belief that another besides Jesus Christ might also have been sinless.
If you believe Jesus did need to be "fully God" to overcome all without sinning,
then why have you denied that He was fully God while in the flesh in your previous posts?

God had to produce a sinless human to be our Savior-Redeemer-Substitute.
Do you understand all that went into this?
Voila, the man called "Jesus" was produced.
If God wanted to produce 5 more such miracles, then we'd have 6 sinless men.

Yes, no natural human being can be sinless, ergo Jesus must have been God.
But, we have been discussing whether He was "fully God".
Did you read my previous posts #40 and #56?