Paralambanetai

[Nancy]

Well, near as I can understand, the very first Septuagint was the first ever translation of the Hebrew Pentateuch into Greek done by a group of 70 or 72 Jewish men for the personal library of an Egyptian ruler. Modern Septuagints are culled from many early and reliable Hebrew to Greek manuscripts, but a letter was found that spoke of the first one.

Anyway, a septuagint I found (Bretons? Brentons?) says: Behold, I am against thee, and I will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and I will destroy out of thee the transgressor and unrighteous. 4Because I will destroy out of thee the unrighteous and the transgressor, therefore so shall my sword come forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:

It’s really the only thing that makes everything God has done in the past make sense. And even in other places IN Ezekiel.

I do like that He does not kill the "righteous" along with the unrighteous here.
Makes ya wonder what to think of things you believed all along
And this is just one instance, imagine the others? SMH.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Ronald, how does the presence of the definite article refute my argument in any way? Of course the apostasy will be a specific event, it is described in Matthew 24:15-22 as such, and likewise in Daniel 7. Claiming that the definite article proves the translation has to be "departure" is so obscure I can't even make out how it's relevant to the present discussion.

Apostasy is not a specific event normally. It’s a buildup. At least in the OT. Seems to me. And what Ice had to say about it made some sense, like…which apostasy and who could judge if it was THE apostasy to beat all apostasies? Burning bibles in the Middle Ages? the roaring twenties? The era of free love? I actually sort of grasped that Greek doesn’t need or require a definite article unless it is an actual event. Like the difference between something general or a slow buildup versus THE thing. Like saying…there have been many super bowls but this was THE Super Bowl to beat all super bowls. Or…many shots have been fired by many many guns but there was was THE shot heard round the world that began WW1.

So by using the “the” article, by taking it from a verb form to a noun form, makes it more the title of a coming event.

 

[Truth7t7]

Apostasy is not a specific event normally. It’s a buildup. At least in the OT. Seems to me. And what Ice had to say about it made some sense, like…which apostasy and who could judge if it was THE apostasy to beat all apostasies? Burning bibles in the Middle Ages? the roaring twenties? The era of free love? I actually sort of grasped that Greek doesn’t need or require a definite article unless it is an actual event. Like the difference between something general or a slow buildup versus THE thing. Like saying…there have been many super bowls but this was THE Super Bowl to beat all super bowls. Or…many shots have been fired by many many guns but there was was THE shot heard round the world that began WW1.

So by using the “the” article, by taking it from a verb form to a noun form, makes it more the title of a coming event.

Apostasy?

Killing 73 million unborn annually in the world (Abortion)?

Same sexes given in marriage around the world, with many once held orthodox denominations performing the ceremonies?

Adultery and Fornication within what calls itself the Church, with no statistical difference than the world?

Homosexuality being accepted as normal, finding it's way into public school curriculum and once held orthodox denominations?

It's my opinion, the actions and events seen today, surpass the evils of Sodom and Gomorrah seen below

Luke 18:8KJV
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

2 Peter 2:6KJV
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Killing 73 million unborn annually in the world (Abortion)?

Same sexes given in marriage around the world, with many once held orthodox denominations performing the ceremonies?

Adultery and Fornication within what calls itself the Church, with no statistical difference than the world?

Homosexuality being accepted as normal, finding it's way into once held orthodox denominations?

2 Peter 2:6KJV
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

But none of those were an event as in a noun. They were buildups. The case Ice, and Ronald, make, is that to use the article in Greek, with a noun, refers to a very specific event, not a buildup.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Apostasy is not a specific event normally. It’s a buildup. At least in the OT. Seems to me. And what Ice had to say about it made some sense, like…which apostasy and who could judge if it was THE apostasy to beat all apostasies? Burning bibles in the Middle Ages? the roaring twenties? The era of free love? I actually sort of grasped that Greek doesn’t need or require a definite article unless it is an actual event. Like the difference between something general or a slow buildup versus THE thing. Like saying…there have been many super bowls but this was THE Super Bowl to beat all super bowls. Or…many shots have been fired by many many guns but there was was THE shot heard round the world that began WW1.

So by using the “the” article, by taking it from a verb form to a noun form, makes it more the title of a coming event.

Yes, I agree, and that's what I am talking about: THE apostasy that takes place during THE tribulation. One could say there have been many tribulations for the Jews down throughout history, but the one that takes place in the end-times will be the worst that ever was, so bad that unless those days are shortened no flesh will remain alive. The same thing can be said for THE apostasy that I'm referring to, because they will occur together as very specific events.

This is why I was telling Ronald Milam that the presence of the definite article doesn't refute my argument, it strengthens it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sorry, I think his argument, taken all together, has more weight.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Sorry, I think his argument, taken all together, has more weight.

And how so?

 

[Truth7t7]

But none of those were an event as in a noun. They were buildups. The case Ice, and Ronald, make, is that to use the article in Greek, with a noun, refers to a very specific event, not a buildup.

It's my opinion that Apostasy is a sign that goes with the man of sin being revealed in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Yes we agree that it's a development seen over time, and it's my opinion it's at the pinnacle that will soon see the (Man Of Sin) being revealed in Jerusalem

My grandfather was born in 1911, and he described how it was promiscuous for a woman to show an ankle, and had to be fully clothed at the beach, this same grandfather saw thong bikinis on the beach area sidewalks, and couldn't believe his eyes in Californias 80's

Society and the Church has been desensitized by the world, bill boards driving down the freeway, would be rated X in 1930

The avenues for temptation in the 21st century, has no comparison to that of 100 years ago, my opinion

 

[marks]

I have already proved the case factually brother. You are the one using the morphed word not me, think about it. Why do you think I pointed out that the first 1500 years of the church that the word DEPARTED was used there, not Falling Away? To make a Falling Away from the Faith work you must show me where faith is part of the chapter. It can't be done, because its about a Departing of the Church from a standing on this earth as being the Church of Jesus Christ.

For me, the simplicity of the context, the flow of thought, it seems clear. He's talking about their consternation over their being gathered to the Lord, now with someone telling them the day of the Lord has arrived. That day won't come but the departure come first.

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

And this is what we don’t set a date on because no man knows when it will happen. But there surely will be men on earth in the tribulation who can come pretty darn close to being able to set a date for when Christ comes.

There are only two dates that "no one knows", and one has already occurred. By definition, we can know what the date is, just not when.

As for what the passage refers to: It refers to God dividing the light from the darkness in the soul--the separating of flesh and spirit. Only one is taken.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It's my opinion that Apostasy is a sign that goes with the man of sin being revealed in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Yes we agree that it's a development seen over time, and it's my opinion it's at the pinnacle that will soon see the (Man Of Sin) being revealed in Jerusalem

I would partially agree with this, Truth, but more as relates potentially to the Gentiles. The apostasy Paul was talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is among the Jews specifically, and it will be a mass event taking place all at once. This is because the Antichrist will break the covenant he made with Israel in the middle of the seven years treaty, meaning they will not be expecting it, and when the entire nation is suddenly faced with "Denounce your God and your religion or you will die," the apostasy will be in massive numbers all at once, that is amongst those who do not flee for their lives or are killed.

It runs a parallel with what happened during the reign of Antiochus IV. This is from 1 Maccabees:

Antiochus Epiphanes and Renegade Jews
10 From them came forth a sinful root, Antiochus Epiphanes, son of King Antiochus; he had been a hostage in Rome. He began to reign in the one hundred thirty-seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks. 11 In those days certain renegades came out from Israel and misled many, saying, "Let us go and make a covenant with the Gentiles around us, for since we separated from them many disasters have come upon us." 12 This proposal pleased them, 13and some of the people eagerly went to the king, who authorized them to observe the ordinances of the Gentiles. 14 So they built a gymnasium in Jerusalem, according to Gentile custom, 15 and removed the marks of circumcision, and abandoned the holy covenant. They joined with the Gentiles and sold themselves to do evil...

The Occupation of Jerusalem
29 Two years later the king sent to the cities of Judah a chief collector of tribute, and he came to Jerusalem with a large force. 30 Deceitfully he spoke peaceable words to them, and they believed him; but he suddenly fell upon the city, dealt it a severe blow, and destroyed many people of Israel... 41 Then the king wrote to his whole kingdom that all should be one people, 42 and that all should give up their particular customs. 43 All the Gentiles accepted the command of the king. Many even from Israel gladly adopted his religion; they sacrificed to idols and profaned the sabbath. 44 And the king sent letters by messengers to Jerusalem and the towns of Judah; he directed them to follow customs strange to the land, 45 to forbid burnt offerings and sacrifices and drink offerings in the sanctuary, to profane sabbaths and festivals, 46 to defile the sanctuary and the priests, 47 to build altars and sacred precincts and shrines for idols, to sacrifice swine and other unclean animals, 48 and to leave their sons uncircumcised. They were to make themselves abominable by everything unclean and profane, 49 so that they would forget the law and change all the ordinances. 50 He added, "And whoever does not obey the command of the king shall die." 51 In such words he wrote to his whole kingdom. He appointed inspectors over all the people and commanded the towns of Judah to offer sacrifice, town by town. 52 Many of the people, everyone who forsook the law, joined them, and they did evil in the land; 53 they drove Israel into hiding in every place of refuge they had. 54 Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege on the altar of burnt offering. They also built altars in the surrounding towns of Judah, 55 and offered incense at the doors of the houses and in the streets. 56 The books of the law that they found they tore to pieces and burned with fire. 57 Anyone found possessing the book of the covenant, or anyone who adhered to the law, was condemned to death by decree of the king. 58 They kept using violence against Israel, against those who were found month after month in the towns. 59 On the twenty-fifth day of the month they offered sacrifice on the altar that was on top of the altar of burnt offering. 60 According to the decree, they put to death the women who had their children circumcised, 61 and their families and those who circumcised them; and they hung the infants from their mothers' necks.

So just like it will in the end-times, the betrayal of the king came suddenly and took Israel by surprise. And in the course of apostatizing, many in Israel started betraying their brethren to their deaths, just as Jesus promised they will again in Matthew 24:10.

 

[Truth7t7]

He's talking about their consternation over their being gathered to the Lord, now with someone telling them the day of the Lord has arrived. That day won't come but the departure come first.

Much love!

Yes, and that "Departure" is from a faith once held, and not a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven

 

[Truth7t7]

I would partially agree with this, Truth, but more as relates potentially to the Gentiles. The apostasy Paul was talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is among the Jews specifically, and it will be a mass event taking place all at once. This is because the Antichrist will break the covenant he made with Israel in the middle of the seven years treaty, meaning they will not be expecting it, and when the entire nation is suddenly faced with "Denounce your God and your religion or you will die," the apostasy will be in massive numbers all at once, that is amongst those who do not flee for their lives or are killed.

It runs a parallel with what happened during the reign of Antiochus IV. This is from 1 Maccabees:

Antiochus Epiphanes and Renegade Jews
10 From them came forth a sinful root, Antiochus Epiphanes, son of King Antiochus; he had been a hostage in Rome. He began to reign in the one hundred thirty-seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks. 11 In those days certain renegades came out from Israel and misled many, saying, "Let us go and make a covenant with the Gentiles around us, for since we separated from them many disasters have come upon us." 12 This proposal pleased them, 13and some of the people eagerly went to the king, who authorized them to observe the ordinances of the Gentiles. 14 So they built a gymnasium in Jerusalem, according to Gentile custom, 15 and removed the marks of circumcision, and abandoned the holy covenant. They joined with the Gentiles and sold themselves to do evil...

The Occupation of Jerusalem
29 Two years later the king sent to the cities of Judah a chief collector of tribute, and he came to Jerusalem with a large force. 30 Deceitfully he spoke peaceable words to them, and they believed him; but he suddenly fell upon the city, dealt it a severe blow, and destroyed many people of Israel... 41 Then the king wrote to his whole kingdom that all should be one people, 42 and that all should give up their particular customs. 43 All the Gentiles accepted the command of the king. Many even from Israel gladly adopted his religion; they sacrificed to idols and profaned the sabbath. 44 And the king sent letters by messengers to Jerusalem and the towns of Judah; he directed them to follow customs strange to the land, 45 to forbid burnt offerings and sacrifices and drink offerings in the sanctuary, to profane sabbaths and festivals, 46 to defile the sanctuary and the priests, 47 to build altars and sacred precincts and shrines for idols, to sacrifice swine and other unclean animals, 48 and to leave their sons uncircumcised. They were to make themselves abominable by everything unclean and profane, 49 so that they would forget the law and change all the ordinances. 50 He added, "And whoever does not obey the command of the king shall die." 51 In such words he wrote to his whole kingdom. He appointed inspectors over all the people and commanded the towns of Judah to offer sacrifice, town by town. 52 Many of the people, everyone who forsook the law, joined them, and they did evil in the land; 53 they drove Israel into hiding in every place of refuge they had. 54 Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege on the altar of burnt offering. They also built altars in the surrounding towns of Judah, 55 and offered incense at the doors of the houses and in the streets. 56 The books of the law that they found they tore to pieces and burned with fire. 57 Anyone found possessing the book of the covenant, or anyone who adhered to the law, was condemned to death by decree of the king. 58 They kept using violence against Israel, against those who were found month after month in the towns. 59 On the twenty-fifth day of the month they offered sacrifice on the altar that was on top of the altar of burnt offering. 60 According to the decree, they put to death the women who had their children circumcised, 61 and their families and those who circumcised them; and they hung the infants from their mothers' necks.

So just like it will in the end-times, the betrayal of the king came suddenly and took Israel by surprise. And in the course of apostatizing, many in Israel started betraying their brethren to their deaths, just as Jesus promised they will again in Matthew 24:10.

I disagree with your Preterist eschatology, in Antiochus Epiphanies being fulfillment

I also disagree with your explanation of Apostasy being isolated to Jews, and that it comes all at once suddenly

I believe the Apostasy is a gradual sign showing that the time is ripe for the (Man Of Sin) to be revealed, and I believe we are close to that time as previously explained

 

[Hidden In Him]

I disagree with your Preterist eschatology, in Antiochus Epiphanies and 70AD fulfillment

I am NOT a Preterist, Lol. How many times have I told you this?

 

[marks]

Yes, and that "Departure" is from a faith once held, and not a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven

Many have that idea. I don't see it spelled out though, and that's not the departure Paul had already told them about. The departure . . . it's a certain one.

"Don't you remember when I was with you I told you about these things?" So then . . . what is it we have a record of What Paul Told Them?

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

It's my opinion that Apostasy is a sign that goes with the man of sin being revealed in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Yes we agree that it's a development seen over time, and it's my opinion it's at the pinnacle that will soon see the (Man Of Sin) being revealed in Jerusalem

My grandfather was born in 1911, and he described how it was promiscuous for a woman to show an ankle, and had to be fully clothed at the beach, this same grandfather saw thong bikinis on the beach area sidewalks, and couldn't believe his eyes in Californias 80's

Society and the Church has been desensitized by the world, bill boards driving down the freeway, would be rated X in 1930

The avenues for temptation in the 21st century, has no comparison to that of 100 years ago, my opinion

I am not sure you heard what you just said...and yet it answers the question-- not as you purposed it, but without knowing.

What you described is men of sin being exposed over generations, over time. That is it! That is the man of sin being revealed (which must come first)!

Is only one man of sin to be revealed, or all?

"For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light." Mark 4:22​

 

[Truth7t7]

I am NOT a Preterist, Lol. How many times have I told you this?

Do you believe in a future Daniels Abomination of Desolation seen in Matthew24:15?

Do you believe in a future great tribulation Matthew 24:21?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Do you believe in a future Daniels Abomination of Desolation seen in Matthew24:15?

Do you believe in a future great tribulation Matthew 24:21?

You have already asked me these questions just a few short weeks ago, and I already answered them. The answer was Yes to both.

 

[Truth7t7]

Many have that idea. I don't see it spelled out though, and that's not the departure Paul had already told them about. The departure . . . it's a certain one.

"Don't you remember when I was with you I told you about these things?" So then . . . what is it we have a record of What Paul Told Them?

Much love!

The departure is a "Certain One"?

Please explain, the suspense is killing me!

 

[Truth7t7]

.What you described is men of sin being exposed over generations, over time. That is it! That is the man of sin being revealed (which must come first)!

Is only one man of sin to be revealed, or all?

"For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light." Mark 4:22​

We disagree, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 speaks of a singular man (Man Of Sin) "He" "Himself" Singular, and this is a future event unfulfilled, when he will be revealed in Jerusalem

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.