John Calvin and Calvinism.
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If someone today says they are a Protestant they are a member of a group that redefined the doctrine of orthodox theologians of the Catholic tradition. It's your blue and red perspective from the Protestant pov.
Only if Calvinism is correct and God determines everything we choose.
Reality: God gives us freedoms to go against Him. (Freewill)
Remember Paul taught, confession saves,
Romans 10:9-10
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto,salvation.
1John 4:15
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him and he in God.
Fact: God gives us freewill to rebel against Gods love.
John 12:42-43
Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue;
For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
God gives us freewill to go against Him.
Remember what Stephen said,
Acts 7:51
You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your Fathers did, so do you.
Yes, we can resist God. Not because He is not all powerfull. But because He allows it.
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Well, He determines whom He will have mercy and compassion on, for sure. He does not "determine our choices." Our choices are always our own, but if our hearts ~ which God either changes into flesh or leaves as stone ~ remains stone... which, yes, may happen, in accord with God's will... then we will never choose Him. As Jesus told His disciples (and us, by extension), "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..." And this is exactly what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2, that "...God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Well, yes, but only if He gives us up to ourselves and our own passions. This is Romans 1. For His elect, He sets them free from their bondage to sin and death.
Grace and peace to you.
Then God is a respecter of persons.
He loves some and desires to burn others in hell.
For what reason?
Because according to Calvinism, FOR HIS GLORY!
If that is not an evil god then explain how your god, is love towards those whom he predestined to burn them in hell before they even existed?
I am not interested in having any discussion with You.
Because you made it quite clear you do not care about what I have to say. Leave me alone!
That's quite okay with me. I, however, will post as I please, and will address whomever I please (as will you, I'm sure). I think what you're really "not interested in," Titus, is being proved wrong. And I can understand that, but, well, iron sharpens iron, my friend.
Not what I said at all. The only thing I ever said that I didn't care about (the only thing concerning you, specifically) is whether or not what I said ~ which was quite innocuous ~ bothered you.
Is that... a... command?
See what I did there...? Yeah, I'm being a bit facetious. Come on, man, ease up (not a command, but an exhortation).Grace and peace to you, Titus.
Those who ARE IN CHRIST are securely united for time and eternity.
What about those that are not in Christ?
Are you reformed? If you are I understand your position.
However, I must say that even the reformed are not UNCONDITIONALLY secure.
and for a more terrible reasons than we who are not reformed believe we can abandon our faith.
What a great point Titus...
I've never considered this.
In the reformed theology, IF indeed Calvinism is taught properly, God Himself will cause some to think they are saved when in reality they are not and this salvation will be taken away from them by the very God that first caused them to believe they were saved.
I really have a problem with reformed theology -
I'm on my way to respond to Pinseeker, but I came upon this and just want to say that
1. We are born depraved....does this mean we cannot seek God?
Were persons born depraved n the O.T.?
I have many verses in the O.T. that speak about how we should seek God and also find Him.
2. Everyone is saved by God's grace.
Without God's grace no one would be saved.
I think we all agree on this but maybe some Christians don't understand grace very well...
this is your opportunity to explain it to them...
NOT to make the incorrect theological assumption that we must be saved before we could be saved.
Or, as many say: We cannot put the cart before the horse.
I don't have much time to spend on here PS and it seems like you're answers are no answer at all.That's not possible, because Calvin was Calvin.
Well, it's not. Hyper-Calvinism is a distortion of historical Calvinism.
Nope. Hyper-Calvinism is a distortion of true, historical Calvinism... what John Calvin believed and wrote.
Not really, no. A little more formal, maybe.
Yeah, that's a bit of a problem...
"Except for his theology"... LOL! I can guess what you "don't like"...
Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yes, many people have a hard time embracing the reformed faith for several different reasons. It can be very offensive, so to speak, to hear that people are not autonomous "free agents," or the doctrine of limited atonement, or other things. Whatever it was, it's really kind of irrelevant because... he changed his mind.
Sproul's former thinking was not that it was illogical.
Well, if we are totally depraved ~ if the effects of Adam's fall was as extensive as the Bible says it is ~ then God's election must be unconditional of anything we might do, because, due to the state we are in, any requirement God has ~ much less what it really is, that we must be perfect (holy) because He is perfect (holy) ~ we will not do, and in fact do the opposite, if left in our natural state. That's exactly what Paul is telling us in Romans 1 through 7. If total depravity is accepted, though, everything else ~ with the possible exception of limited atonement ~ inevitably follows. If God changes the heart, makes the person alive by His Spirit, frees him from slavery to unrighteousness, he cannot help but choose God, not because God "forces him to choose" but because he knows his sin and sees (is no longer blind to) his need for salvation and that his only refuge is in Christ and His righteousness. The first step is to understand just what the Bible teaches us about the natural condition of man and his absolute inability to get himself out of this predicament, and in fact his consuming inclination not to get himself out of it.
I don't even know what this means. Hyper-Calvinism is a distortion of Calvinism, not an addition to it. What it is, in a nutshell, is an exaggeration of God's sovereignty to the exclusion of man's ability to choose or man's responsibility to respond positively. And this is really what Arminians object to, branding it as Calvinism when what they're really reacting negatively to is the hyper-Calvinistic view of things without really even knowing it... without really realizing that hyper-Calvinism is actually a thing.
Well, no, but you're welcome to your opinion.
In no way is this true. I get that that is sometimes the perception, but in no way is this true. God's absolute sovereignty over His creation affirms His love, and vice-versa.
Good. But in emphasizing God's love, you can't de-emphasize His sovereignty and justice, which you may not mean to do, but that's often the result.
How can we not be responsible for our actions?
No.
He did not deny that in any shape, form, or fashion. It applies to all who hear, but is only effectual for some. This is very close in concept to general vs. special revelation (see above), the latter of which is only given to His elect.
Well, how is it not???
He absolutely did not. The offer is made to everyone and is thus free and universal. But God only has mercy and compassion on, and changes the hearts of, by His Holy Spirit, some, His elect. This is according to His will, but it does not make his offer "not free" or "not universal."
Sure! Because they're misunderstanding what Calvin actually taught in the same way that hyper-Calvinists do, but then, having applyied a hyper-Calvinistic understanding of what Calvin actually taught ~ without even knowing it ~ react negatively instead of positively to this "understanding," which is really a misunderstanding.
Well, you tell me.
(1of 2)
So I guess we could stop here if you so wish.
Just a few comments:
1. You say this in the above:
Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yes, many people have a hard time embracing the reformed faith for several different reasons. It can be very offensive, so to speak, to hear that people are not autonomous "free agents,"
If you don't believe persons are autonomous free agents, how could you possibly say in your next post that we probably agree on free will? Calvinists believe that they want what they desire most at the time, or some such idea.
Calvin stated that everything a man does is predetermined. This means that God makes you desire what He wants you to desire.
So it feels like you chose freely, but really it was not a free choice but a pre-programed choice.
Free will means that you choose with no outside coercion and that you could have made a different choice (if you so wished to).
Simple as that. Some go on for pages trying to "understand" what I mean by free will - this is so dishonest...some do this.
2. I DID state that saying that God IS love does NOT deemphasize His sovereignty or His justice.
God created what He IS. He is all these things - one does not take away from the other.
3. On my comment about responsibility for actions your answer is: "how could we not be responsible".
Are you serious?
If it's GOD that predetermines everything you do and say, AND then makes you responsible...
Is that justice?? No, it isn't.
God cannot condemn us for what HE made us do.
Ooops. I made a mistake. God condemns us for no reason at all according to Calvin.
4. God's offer is NOT free and universal IF HE chooses who will be saved unconditionally.
@PinSeeker
You stated the following:
Well, if we are totally depraved ~ if the effects of Adam's fall was as extensive as the Bible says it is ~ then God's election must be unconditional of anything we might do, because, due to the state we are in, any requirement God has ~ much less what it really is, that we must be perfect (holy) because He is perfect (holy) ~ we will not do, and in fact do the opposite, if left in our natural state. That's exactly what Paul is telling us in Romans 1 through 7. If total depravity is accepted, though, everything else ~ with the possible exception of limited atonement ~ inevitably follows. If God changes the heart, makes the person alive by His Spirit, frees him from slavery to unrighteousness, he cannot help but choose God, not because God "forces him to choose" but because he knows his sin and sees (is no longer blind to) his need for salvation and that his only refuge is in Christ and His righteousness. The first step is to understand just what the Bible teaches us about the natural condition of man and his absolute inability to get himself out of this predicament, and in fact his consuming inclination not to get himself out of it.
Where does the N.T. state that being born with this depravity means we cannot choose to leave it behind?
Romans states we PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we wish to follow...
Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Do you think Jesus really meant that we are to be perfect?
Did He not know that mankind was fallen and could not be perfect?
Where does the N.T. state we are born blind?
If it's God that changes the heart,,,where is our free will?
If it's God that changes the heart, how could we be responsible when we sin?
Maybe if we discussed actual verses it would be better.
I posted a couple of verses from the Institutes that do not agree at all with what you say above.
As far as Calvin understood and taught, EVERYTHING is predestinated by God.
And how we could possibly reconcile that with our responsibility is called a mystery by those I hear speaking like
Piper, Macarthur, etc.
You stated the following:
Well, if we are totally depraved ~ if the effects of Adam's fall was as extensive as the Bible says it is ~ then God's election must be unconditional of anything we might do, because, due to the state we are in, any requirement God has ~ much less what it really is, that we must be perfect (holy) because He is perfect (holy) ~ we will not do, and in fact do the opposite, if left in our natural state. That's exactly what Paul is telling us in Romans 1 through 7. If total depravity is accepted, though, everything else ~ with the possible exception of limited atonement ~ inevitably follows. If God changes the heart, makes the person alive by His Spirit, frees him from slavery to unrighteousness, he cannot help but choose God, not because God "forces him to choose" but because he knows his sin and sees (is no longer blind to) his need for salvation and that his only refuge is in Christ and His righteousness. The first step is to understand just what the Bible teaches us about the natural condition of man and his absolute inability to get himself out of this predicament, and in fact his consuming inclination not to get himself out of it.
Where does the N.T. state that being born with this depravity means we cannot choose to leave it behind?
Romans states we PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we wish to follow...
Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Do you think Jesus really meant that we are to be perfect?
Did He not know that mankind was fallen and could not be perfect?
Where does the N.T. state we are born blind?
If it's God that changes the heart,,,where is our free will?
If it's God that changes the heart, how could we be responsible when we sin?
Maybe if we discussed actual verses it would be better.
I posted a couple of verses from the Institutes that do not agree at all with what you say above.
As far as Calvin understood and taught, EVERYTHING is predestinated by God.
And how we could possibly reconcile that with our responsibility is called a mystery by those I hear speaking like
Piper, Macarthur, etc.
'Free will Gospel" negates what happened to all of us save Jesus as a direct result of the fall!
The effects of the Fall of Adam, as there remains no more full free will, as sinners we were enslaved to those desires!
Are you of the reformed faith too?
If so, I have to say that I just don't see where in the OT our free will was taken away...
You have any verses that state this?
Calvin apologists take different approaches to defending their theological hero with regards to the Servetus execution. One such approach is to say that Calvin was not culpable for the killing of Servetus, since he did not personally have the power or authority to put him to death. Unfortunately, for the Calvin apologist who takes this approach, Melanchthon and Calvin (who makes use of Melanchthon’s pronouncement in his own defense) would disagree. Calvin writes,
Let Baudouin abuse me as long as he will, provided that, by the judgment of Melanchthon, posterity owes me a debt of gratitude for having purged the Church of so pernicious a monster. (emphasis mine)
Therefore, Calvin was proud to take personal credit for “purg[ing] the church of so pernicious a monster [as Servetus].”
Let Baudouin abuse me as long as he will, provided that, by the judgment of Melanchthon, posterity owes me a debt of gratitude for having purged the Church of so pernicious a monster. (emphasis mine)
Therefore, Calvin was proud to take personal credit for “purg[ing] the church of so pernicious a monster [as Servetus].”
The Old and New Testament both teach that this is the natural human state and cannot be escaped at any point in our lives. We have a sinful nature from birth. Since this is our nature ~ we are naturally of satan ~ if we are not given a new nature ~ born again of by water and the Spirit and thus of God ~ we will not fail to choose wrongly regarding God and His salvation.
That's exactly right, but our wishes are in accordance with our nature.
Yes, and the only way we can be perfect in God's eyes ~ credited righteousness, as Abraham was ~ is to be in Christ. Only then is there then therefore no condemnation for sin, even the smallest of sins.
Of course He knew. And in everything He said, He was exhorting His hearers (and by extension, us) to Himself. Which takes us back to the immediately preceding answer above.
Well why does it matter to you whether it's the Old or the New Testament that says this? It shouldn't, as the Bible is all one story. In our natural state, we are dead in sin. In this way, we are blind. But you asked about the New Testament so, consider that, in our natural state, we "(do) not see fit to acknowledge God," as Paul says in Romans 1:28. In this way we are blind.
Our wills are always our own. But there is a sense in which our wills are always in bondage. It is God that that changes the heart, but we should think of this not as God "destroying our free will," but rather freeing us from bondage to sin, or slavery to sin and unrighteousness.
Adam was the federal head of the human race. From birth, we are in Adam, as his progeny. We inherited the same sinful ~ dead in sin ~ state that he fell into in Genesis 3.
Yeah, discussing God's Word is always a good idea.
Now, by "verses from the Institutes," I guess you mean excerpts. There are no "verses" in the Institutes...
I don't mean to be corrective here, but, well, you know. Just sayin.' At any rate, because one is predestined to do things does not mean he or she does not make a choice to do any or all of those very things.Well, we can certainly say 'mystery,' but we should understand it in terms of wonder and even magnificence. That God's absolute sovereignty and man's free will coexist is a mystery in this sense, and probably cannot be completely grasped in our finite minds. David says in Psalm 139, "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it." And so we can say the same thing, that such knowledge is too wonderful for us; it is high; we cannot attain it. But we can accept it, as David does.
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