Can you repent without works?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Daniel L.

Active Member
Feb 25, 2022
257
30
28
Lisboa
Faith
Christian
Country
Portugal
self amputate

His words are Spirit and Life, the eye is lust and the arm is deeds, if you lust, pluck it out, if you do unrighteousness, cut it off. But the carnal mind does not understand, this is why He speaks in parables:

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

You are a person that is under the Law in the OT

I am under the Law just like everyone else, there is only one Law, and it does not change. It is not the law of Moses, but His Word is Law.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
 

Ernest T. Bass

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
1,845
616
113
out in the woods
What if a man steals a $10,000 horse, the horse is lost, and the man has no horse-stealer's insurance or other means to restore the horse? Must his forgiveness from God be delayed indefinitely?
In all cases restitution of the stolen item may not be possible, then reasonable satisfaction must come about by doing, for free, chores and jobs for the victim of the stolen horse....another way is by spending time in jail.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Titus

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,300
1,480
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
His words are Spirit and Life, the eye is lust and the arm is deeds, if you lust, pluck it out, if you do unrighteousness, cut it off. But the carnal mind does not understand, this is why He speaks in parables:

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:



I am under the Law just like everyone else, there is only one Law, and it does not change. It is not the law of Moses, but His Word is Law.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Oh boy, thats a whopper.
 

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does God repent for you or do you use his gift to allow you to repent?
Yes.
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13

Christians have been arguing these points since the Reformation so I doubt we can resolve them on a forum for amateur theologians over the course of a few posts.

The real argument is over "will" and whether or not we possess "free will." It's a mistake to equate freedom of choice to free will, but many do.

My beliefs are built on scripture rather than worldly thinking, and scripture is clear about our fallen state, our inability to seek God out, much less choose to believe Him, unless He draws us to Himself, unless He teaches us.

This doctrine gives God the glory as our only Savior in opposition to our own works for salvation and the state of mind called self righteousness.

Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites. This was because they made much of their works to be righteous before God, but Jesus made it clear that God doesn't weigh the good deeds of people "under law" against their evil deeds.

There are no heavenly scales of justice for the Jews or the Christians, but heaven has clearly weighed the heathen in such a fashion. When we read of heaven's decrees we tend to assume that these come from God, but God appointed rulers, powers, principalities, and an entire heavenly host to rule over men until the reign of Jesus Christ, a truly righteous reign.

The reign of heaven is by law and the heathen of this world have always had law based upon their fallen nature. Even the simplest tribal peoples have forms of law, but not always righteous law.

Jesus said that whoever sins is a slave to sin. He said this to Pharisees and men who took pride in their own righteousness, but these same men wanted to murder Him, the Lord of glory.

If we have a fallen nature, and we all do until God gives us a new nature in a new birth, then all of our choices serve ourselves. But, we were not created to serve ourselves. We were created to serve God.

15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. Genesis 2:15
This was man's original "job" or purpose, to serve God by tending and keeping God's garden. The first sin wasn't just breaking God's commandment, but Adam's choice to serve himself, regardless of his reasons. Since then all men serve themselves, follow their own will, and sin in disobedience to God's will.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10
Jesus didn't die on the cross to redeem us to ourselves, but to God, to buy us back from that sinful self serving nature to serve Him.

He does this in direct opposition to our own will.
Our will wants to serve ourselves, to be pleased in ourselves, to satisfy our vanity, our pride. But, God says our correct relationship to Him is one of humility, submission to His will.
In Christ, that submission is to extend to all created in His image.

It is impossible to have a right relationship with other people without having a right relationship with God, simply because our self serving will always responds poorly to what we see as evil behavior directed at us or at what we love. It's natural for us to love those who love us. We're built that way as social creatures. But, it isn't natural to love our enemies, to do good to those who attack us, or slight us, or do evil against what we love.

God gives those who believe His Son the power to receive His Spirit and be called sons of God. His Spirit gives us power to do His will in submission to Him, to serve Him by serving others, regardless of their own self will. The saints have real power to choose between our own will and God's will, because we've been freed from the bondage of sin, the fear of death and condemnation.

The unregenerate have no such power. Their will is subject to their fallen nature. This isn't my idea, but the teaching of scripture, the teaching of Christ.

Those who try to bind the conscience by using the law and the prophets can have no effect upon the saints, only the unregenerate. They mishandle scripture, not recognizing the authority of Christ or the redemption paid in His blood. The Spirit of God is not deceived, nor is He bound by law.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin. Romans 4:8

(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13
The self righteous hate these verses because they don't apply to self righteousness.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14
These instructions are only for the saints, because the self righteous have no power to cease from sin. Only the saints are able to make free will choice to serve themselves or serve God, and God has told us the consequence of serving ourselves:

There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. Proverbs 14:12, Proverbs 16:25
This was important enough for God to say it twice.

Obedience to God is a choice, but one that only the saints can make. Consequently repentance follows faith and is a work of His grace in us. It doesn't seem that way to us because it's our choice, but it isn't a choice that we can make without God's grace.
 

BarneyFife

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2019
9,119
6,351
113
Central PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In all cases restitution of the stolen item may not be possible, then reasonable satisfaction must come about by doing, for free, chores and jobs for the victim of the stolen horse....another way is by spending time in jail.
What if the victim of the crime wants nothing whatever to do with the criminal? What if I stole $500 from my employer 40 years ago and have absolutely no way of contacting him. (I'm actually not being deliberately obtuse, believe it or not--there's an underlying principle involved here.)
 

BloodBought 1953

Well-Known Member
Jun 3, 2020
5,032
1,821
113
71
Portsmouth Ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And I'm going throw a rock through every window in town....And you can't stop me.. Nehhh!


My wife absolutely LOVES ol’ Earnest.....Did you know that the guy that portrayed him was a classically trainer actor that performed in Shakespearian Plays.....he was also a personal friend of Frank Sinatra’s ....the latter once gave him a Jaguar....Howard Morris was his real name....he was divorced 5 times ( was rock- throwing involved?) and he was the voice of “Atom Ant”...... He died due to heart problems...
 

Daniel L.

Active Member
Feb 25, 2022
257
30
28
Lisboa
Faith
Christian
Country
Portugal
But only the parts you like.

I like all of the Law.

self righteousness.

"Self Righteous" King David:

Psalm 18:21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.

Psalm 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

55 I have remembered thy name, O Lord, in the night, and have kept thy law.
56 This I had, because I kept thy precepts.

63 I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.

66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

166 Lord, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.

168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites. This was because they made much of their works to be righteous before God

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
 

BloodBought 1953

Well-Known Member
Jun 3, 2020
5,032
1,821
113
71
Portsmouth Ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


What you don’t understand is that everybody fails to *DO” what Jesus said to do....If we could reach the impossible Standard that Jesus set if you choose to get your Justification by Law-Keeping it would mean that Jesus death in the Cross was in vain....

For those with the wisdom and self- insight to see and admit that they are lost , hopeless sinners whose only hope is having Somebody that is Worthy to stand in their place and pay the price for their sins, there is “ Good News”......a “ Loop- Hole”, If you will.....read all about in 1Cor15:1-4..... best of luck to you that think you can merit Heaven by your Splendid Performances......btw....has your eye ever caused you to lust over an attractive woman? Why haven't you obeyed Jesus and plucked out your eye? Get real. Get smart.....seize the Grace that is your only way out of your sinful mess of a life...
 

Ziggy

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2020
10,187
9,758
113
59
Maine, USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is an interesting saying:

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

That actually happened.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Hugs
 

BarneyFife

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2019
9,119
6,351
113
Central PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am under the Law just like everyone else, there is only one Law, and it does not change. It is not the law of Moses, but His Word is Law.
First of all, this is absolute nonsense; the law of Moses is contained in the Word of God/Law. And the law is not delineated by the use of an l or an L in the Word, Itself. You need to get your "laws" sorted out if you want to communicate on a meaningful level here. And picking out little phrases to respond to isn't very communicative, either.
I like all of the Law.
So do I (not that it matters what I like), but I'm not "under" all of it, in some sense, and neither are you.

Unless you don't believe this:

Galatians 5:18 KJV: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Romans 6:14 KJV: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


(Sooner or later you're going to have to either rightly divide, or better explain your beliefs. So far, you're just being enigmatic, which is not biblical.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim B

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I like all of the Law.



"Self Righteous" King David:

Psalm 18:21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.

Psalm 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

55 I have remembered thy name, O Lord, in the night, and have kept thy law.
56 This I had, because I kept thy precepts.

63 I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.

66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

166 Lord, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.

168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.



Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
King David committed adultery with Bath Sheba and arranged for her husband to die in battle. Are you really that ignorant?
 
  • Like
Reactions: BloodBought 1953

Daniel L.

Active Member
Feb 25, 2022
257
30
28
Lisboa
Faith
Christian
Country
Portugal
the law of Moses is contained in the Word of God/Law.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees who followed the law of Moses, because it was not the Law of God.
Behold, one greater than Moses is here and He shall give you a better Law, even a Perfect Law:

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Jesus is "the Way" that leads to the Father, All His Word is True, and Truth is Law.

I'm not "under" all of it

Why not? His commands are not grievous, repent and get on the straight path.

King David committed adultery

He also repented and confessed, and was punished accordingly and the child died. If you confess He forgives, so what is the problem?
 

BarneyFife

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2019
9,119
6,351
113
Central PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees who followed the law of Moses, because it was not the Law of God.
Behold, one greater than Moses is here and He shall give you a better Law, even a Perfect Law:

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Jesus is "the Way" that leads to the Father, All His Word is True, and Truth is Law.



Why not? His commands are not grievous, repent and get on the straight path.



He also repented and confessed, and was punished accordingly and the child died. If you confess He forgives, so what is the problem?
Daniel L, Everybody! He'll be here all week! :);):cool::p:Do_O (oops)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Daniel L.

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,300
1,480
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes.
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13

Christians have been arguing these points since the Reformation so I doubt we can resolve them on a forum for amateur theologians over the course of a few posts.

The real argument is over "will" and whether or not we possess "free will." It's a mistake to equate freedom of choice to free will, but many do.

My beliefs are built on scripture rather than worldly thinking, and scripture is clear about our fallen state, our inability to seek God out, much less choose to believe Him, unless He draws us to Himself, unless He teaches us.

This doctrine gives God the glory as our only Savior in opposition to our own works for salvation and the state of mind called self righteousness.

Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites. This was because they made much of their works to be righteous before God, but Jesus made it clear that God doesn't weigh the good deeds of people "under law" against their evil deeds.

There are no heavenly scales of justice for the Jews or the Christians, but heaven has clearly weighed the heathen in such a fashion. When we read of heaven's decrees we tend to assume that these come from God, but God appointed rulers, powers, principalities, and an entire heavenly host to rule over men until the reign of Jesus Christ, a truly righteous reign.

The reign of heaven is by law and the heathen of this world have always had law based upon their fallen nature. Even the simplest tribal peoples have forms of law, but not always righteous law.

Jesus said that whoever sins is a slave to sin. He said this to Pharisees and men who took pride in their own righteousness, but these same men wanted to murder Him, the Lord of glory.

If we have a fallen nature, and we all do until God gives us a new nature in a new birth, then all of our choices serve ourselves. But, we were not created to serve ourselves. We were created to serve God.

15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. Genesis 2:15
This was man's original "job" or purpose, to serve God by tending and keeping God's garden. The first sin wasn't just breaking God's commandment, but Adam's choice to serve himself, regardless of his reasons. Since then all men serve themselves, follow their own will, and sin in disobedience to God's will.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10
Jesus didn't die on the cross to redeem us to ourselves, but to God, to buy us back from that sinful self serving nature to serve Him.

He does this in direct opposition to our own will.
Our will wants to serve ourselves, to be pleased in ourselves, to satisfy our vanity, our pride. But, God says our correct relationship to Him is one of humility, submission to His will.
In Christ, that submission is to extend to all created in His image.

It is impossible to have a right relationship with other people without having a right relationship with God, simply because our self serving will always responds poorly to what we see as evil behavior directed at us or at what we love. It's natural for us to love those who love us. We're built that way as social creatures. But, it isn't natural to love our enemies, to do good to those who attack us, or slight us, or do evil against what we love.

God gives those who believe His Son the power to receive His Spirit and be called sons of God. His Spirit gives us power to do His will in submission to Him, to serve Him by serving others, regardless of their own self will. The saints have real power to choose between our own will and God's will, because we've been freed from the bondage of sin, the fear of death and condemnation.

The unregenerate have no such power. Their will is subject to their fallen nature. This isn't my idea, but the teaching of scripture, the teaching of Christ.

Those who try to bind the conscience by using the law and the prophets can have no effect upon the saints, only the unregenerate. They mishandle scripture, not recognizing the authority of Christ or the redemption paid in His blood. The Spirit of God is not deceived, nor is He bound by law.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin. Romans 4:8

(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13
The self righteous hate these verses because they don't apply to self righteousness.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14
These instructions are only for the saints, because the self righteous have no power to cease from sin. Only the saints are able to make free will choice to serve themselves or serve God, and God has told us the consequence of serving ourselves:

There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. Proverbs 14:12, Proverbs 16:25
This was important enough for God to say it twice.

Obedience to God is a choice, but one that only the saints can make. Consequently repentance follows faith and is a work of His grace in us. It doesn't seem that way to us because it's our choice, but it isn't a choice that we can make without God's grace.
God repented for you or through you?