Confusion about the Law.

[Ferris Bueller]

You just told me that obeying Jesus' instructions, and the instructions of the God that sent Him is going to cause me to be thrown into a fire.

That is what passes as logic and bearing fruit in the modern Christian world.

No, that's just what you heard, lol.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In Acts 15:19-21 the new converts were told to begin obeying 4 specific laws. That made them eligible to join the Jews in the synagogue on the Sabbath to hear the Law of Moses.

It didn't make them eligible to join the Jews. It kept the peace between them and the Jews.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The Messiah redeems us from the punishment of the Law. Neither He, nor Peter, nor Paul, or any other NT writer EVER said, "you no longer need to obey the Law."

Oh, okay:

"17 ...“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”c18And where these have been forgiven, an offering for sin is no longer needed." Hebrews 10:17-18​

 

[Happy Trails]

Trust me, I have no love for the Catholic church, only disdain, but even their observances are based on the observances of the old covenant. For example, the Sunday sabbath draws it's support, right or wrong, from the concept of the eighth day in the appointed festivals in the law. So it certainly has a Biblical origin, not solely a pagan one.

Not one of them is. That claim is a lie. It makes no sense. If ONE feast, ONCE a year has an 8th day, how does that become a Biblically based observance every week?

It's nonsense.

If you are opposed to the RCC, why are all of your beliefs, positions and arguments from their playbook?

You ARE a Catholic.

They told you to observe Sunday. That's what you do.
They told you to observe Easter. That's what you do.
They told you to observe Christmas. That's what you do.

All of your religious observances are in obedience to the authority of Rome.

That is what the Law guards us from doing. The law keeps us out of Babylon.

Revelation 18:1-4
In the last days, Jesus calls HIS people OUT of Babylon.

 

[Happy Trails]

It didn't make them eligible to join the Jews. It kept the peace between them and the Jews.

Why was there a partition in the synagogues?
Ephesians 2:11-15

It was because the Gentiles were viewed as unclean. MANY Gentiles had converted to Judaism before Jesus ever showed up.

 

[Happy Trails]

Friend, you're the one who does not know the law.
The law kept you from partaking of the life blood of the sacrifice. It was poured out on the ground, instead. The law kept you from going behind the curtain in the temple. The law required you to not even touch the mountain where God is, let alone ascend it.

All these prohibitions that held you at a distance from God were taken out of the way, not destroyed, by the new way of faith in Christ. The way which brings us unabashedly and fully into the presence and life of God. A person who has already been brought near to God this way does not have to submit to a law that legislates some level or kind of distance from God. Those laws doesn't apply to him. He doesn't break them. They simply do not apply to him.

That's complete nonsense.
You may be familiar with the last 25% of the Bible.

The fact that you don't know the first 75% is why you can be comfortable saying that.

2 Peter 3:16

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Tell me which laws, and why. I think you are bluffing.

These:

"2“Speak to the Israelites and say to them, ‘These are My appointed feasts, the feasts of the LORD that you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.3For six days work may be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of complete rest, a day of sacred assembly. You must not do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD.

4These are the LORD’s appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times. 5The Passover to the LORD begins at twilight on the fourteentha day of the first month. 6On the fifteenth day of the same month begins the Feast of Unleavened Breadb to the LORD. For seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7On the first day you are to hold a sacred assembly; you are not to do any regular work. 8For seven days you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day there shall be a sacred assembly; you must not do any regular work.’ ”9And the LORD said to Moses, 10“Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘When you enter the land that I am giving you and you reap its harvest, you are to bring to the priest a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest. 11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD so that it may be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath.12On the day you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a year-old lamb without blemish as a burnt offering to the LORD, 13along with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flourc mixed with oil—an offering made by fire to the LORD, a pleasing aroma—and its drink offering of a quarter hin of wine.d14You must not eat any bread or roasted or new grain until the very day you have brought this offering to your God. This is to be a permanent statute for the generations to come, wherever you live.

15From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, you are to count off seven full weeks. 16You shall count off fifty days until the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the LORD.17Bring two loaves of bread from your dwellings as a wave offering, each made from two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour, baked with leaven, as the firstfruits to the LORD.18Along with the bread you are to present seven unblemished male lambs a year old, one young bull, and two rams. They will be a burnt offering to the LORD, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings—an offering made by fire, a pleasing aroma to the LORD.19You shall also prepare one male goat as a sin offering and two male lambs a year old as a peace offering. 20The priest is to wave the lambs as a wave offering before the LORD, together with the bread of the firstfruits. The bread and the two lambs shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.21On that same day you are to proclaim a sacred assembly, and you must not do any regular work. This is to be a permanent statute wherever you live for the generations to come.22When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap all the way to the edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the foreign resident. I am the LORD your God.’ ”

23The LORD also said to Moses, 24“Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly announced by trumpet blasts.e 25You must not do any regular work, but you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD.’ ”

26Again the LORD said to Moses, 27“The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. You shall hold a sacred assembly and humble yourselves,f and present an offering made by fire to the LORD.28On this day you are not to do any work, for it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the LORD your God. 29If anyone does not humble himself on this day, he must be cut off from his people. 30I will destroy from among his people anyone who does any work on this day.31You are not to do any work at all. This is a permanent statute for the generations to come, wherever you live. 32It will be a Sabbath of complete rest for you, and you shall humble yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to keep your Sabbath.”

33And the LORD said to Moses, 34“Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘On the fifteenth day of the seventh month the Feast of Tabernaclesg to the LORD begins, and it continues for seven days. 35On the first day there shall be a sacred assembly. You must not do any regular work. 36For seven days you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD. On the eighth day you are to hold a sacred assembly and present an offering made by fire to the LORD. It is a solemn assembly; you must not do any regular work.37These are the LORD’s appointed feasts, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies for presenting offerings by fire to the LORD—burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings, each on its designated day. 38These offerings are in addition to the offerings for the LORD’s Sabbaths, and in addition to your gifts, to all your vow offerings, and to all the freewill offerings you give to the LORD.39On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, after you have gathered the produce of the land, you are to celebrate a feast to the LORD for seven days. There shall be complete rest on the first day and also on the eighth day.40On the first day you are to gather the fruit of majestic trees, the branches of palm trees, and the boughs of leafy trees and of willowsh of the brook. And you are to rejoice before the LORD your God for seven days. 41You are to celebrate this as a feast to the LORD for seven days each year. This is a permanent statute for the generations to come; you are to celebrate it in the seventh month.42You are to dwell in boothsi for seven days. All the native-born of Israel must dwell in booths, 43so that your descendants may know that I made the Israelites dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’ ”

44So Moses announced to the Israelites the appointed feasts of the LORD." Leviticus 23:2-44
​

All of these are fulfilled to God's complete and total satisfaction through the blood and body of Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit. God looks at the believer in Christ and sees the ongoing debt of these lawful requirements ascribed to his people marked 'paid in full' with no further debt of law remaining to be paid on our part.

 

[Bob Estey]

I'm told there are 618.
But we don't have to literally keep all 618 because most simply do not apply to us.

So this is not a matter of keeping all the law vs. not keeping all the law. It's a matter of which laws we are to keep, and which ones we don't have to.

But you can’t believe everything you hear:

“You know the commandments: `Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" Mark 10:19 RSV

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It makes no sense. If ONE feast, ONCE a year has an 8th day, how does that become a Biblically based observance every week?

I'm not saying they are correct. I'm saying they do in fact use the OT observances to base their festival cycle on. It's not entirely pagan in origin, but it certainly seems to have been intended to appeal to the pagan practices of the day in the hope of drawing them into the church.

 

[Happy Trails]

Those who believe are already in the rest spoken about in Hebrews 4:

"Now we who have believed enter that rest. " Hebrews 4:3​

'Enter' in this verse is in the present tense. Everyone who believes is presently in the rest the author is speaking about. The promised rest will find it's complete and final fulfillment at the end of the ages.

Keep reading...

For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

We enter that rest every week.
Have you stopped working altogether?
Do you not work any more?

We are still working to enter that rest.

One-verse-at-a-time theology is dangerous.

 

[Happy Trails]

I'm not saying they are correct. I'm saying they do in fact use the OT observances to base their festival cycle on. It's not entirely pagan in origin, but it certainly seems to have been intended to appeal to the pagan practices of the day in the hope of drawing them into the church.

But, they AREN'T! That's the whole point.

They are changing the day to the day of the sun god worshippers, and then reverse engineering Scripture to justify it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But you can’t believe everything you hear:

“You know the commandments: `Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" Mark 10:19 RSV

Every man as accountable to God, not as accountable to other men, has to decide in his heart which laws remain to be literally fulfilled by the believer and which ones do not. Each man, alone, will give an account of himself to God. And God is able to make him stand. We can share our own beliefs about this matter, but ultimately the individual himself has to settle the matter in his own heart. I know where I've settled it, and why.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

We enter that rest every week.
Have you stopped working altogether?
Do you not work any more?

We are still working to enter that rest.

One-verse-at-a-time theology is dangerous.

Oh, Lord...you think he's talking about your day job.
So be it, then. You know what to do then. I mean, not what to do.

 

[Ziggy]

Keep reading...

For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

We enter that rest every week.
Have you stopped working altogether?
Do you not work any more?

We are still working to enter that rest.

One-verse-at-a-time theology is dangerous.

I just had this same conversation in another thread.
The Lord is really on my tail today..
LOL

You'll get it.
Hugs

 

[Bob Estey]

You make a claim that is no different than a Mormon, or a JW, or a Catholic or a Muslim, or even an atheist.

"I have been persuaded that whatever I deem righteous in my own mind is righteousness."

YHVH said he would write HIS Law, not "a law." That is where "I think we all have our own definition of the law" takes you.

If I decide in my own mind what righteousness is, then I am self-righteous. If I obey YHVH then I am righteous by HIS standard, not mine.

That is the difference between seeking HIS righteousness or seeking our own. Matthew 6:33

Romans 6:15
Name for me a single Christian observance that is not pagan in its origins.

The Lord led me to repent of sin I was committing. My life was transformed. If others testify to the same thing, good for them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But, they AREN'T! That's the whole point.

They are changing the day to the day of the sun god worshippers, and then reverse engineering Scripture to justify it.

True, they probably aren't correct. Personally, I abhor the Catholic church and what they have done to the Christian faith. But I do defend the fact that we are not obligated as believers brought near to God through faith in Jesus Christ to keep the literal law of sabbath. We can if we want, provided the reason is good, but under no circumstances do I as a believer HAVE to keep a literal sabbath observance. It was a shadow and illustration of the real sabbath rest. The one I entered into one time for all time the moment I believed in the sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of and deliverance from my sin. I've already satisficed God's holy requirement for sabbath rest, even though I have never kept a literal Mosaic sabbath, just as I have satisfied God's holy requirement for the Passover, though I have never kept a literal Mosaic Passover. He sees no debt of festival law remaining when he looks at me.

 

[Bob Estey]

Every man as accountable to God, not as accountable to other men, has to decide in his heart which laws remain to be literally fulfilled by the believer and which ones do not. Each man, alone, will give an account of himself to God. And God is able to make him stand. We can share our own beliefs about this matter, but ultimately the individual himself has to settle the matter in his own heart. I know where I've settled it, and why.

God is a good guy. He wants everyone to go to heaven. However, he doesn't want people hurting other people. I guess that means there has to be rules.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you are opposed to the RCC, why are all of your beliefs, positions and arguments from their playbook?

The only thing I defend about the Catholic church festival cycle is their freedom to exercise it when they want, not their supposed authority to outlaw God's appointed times and replace them with their own.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

God is a good guy. He wants everyone to go to heaven. However, he doesn't want people hurting other people. I guess that means there has to be rules.

There does have to be rules. But where the rules are in sensible dispute we must let every man settle the matter in his own heart and mind, and respect it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You ARE a Catholic.

They told you to observe Sunday. That's what you do.

Actually, I don't, lol.

They told you to observe Easter. That's what you do.

Actually, I refer to it as Resurrection Day. The only non-Biblical aspect of it that I adhere to is I don't nail the date of the Passover as the time I remember the Lord's role as the Passover Lamb.

They told you to observe Christmas. That's what you do.

Christmas holds no spiritual significance to me. It's a fun time of year when I reflect on memories of good times at Christmas while growing up.

All of your religious observances are in obedience to the authority of Rome.

Thank you for telling me I do what I don't do. The only legitimate accusation you could bring against me is I do not commomerate the Lord within the Mosaic festival of appointed times. And I told you why I do not feel compelled, as a matter of binding law, to do so.

That is what the Law guards us from doing. The law keeps us out of Babylon.

Revelation 18:1-4
In the last days, Jesus calls HIS people OUT of Babylon.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Babylon is the world financial system, not the Roman Catholic church and it's abhorrent practices as corrupt as it most certainly is.