Confusion about the Law.

[Happy Trails]

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You can't force someone to believe anything if they don't want to.
You can't coerce someone into having faith in something or someone if they don't want to.
You can't threaten someone to be obedient and have it be out of love.

I show my love through loving, not because I am told to, but because that's who I am.
You can't make people love. It has to come from the heart. It has to be already in there growing.

If loving your neighbour is through "obedience" , is it genuine?

Just thinking..
Hugs

Workers of iniquity are workers without the Law. That is what the phrase means. Any other watered-down interpretation only serves to deceive.

You show love and respect to your parents by obeying them. Your Dad asks you to mow the lawn, and you do it out of love and respect. Mom asks you to take out the trash, you do it out of love and respect. Saying, "I love you" is a nice gesture. But, it is meaningless without action.

Being a kind person and treating others well is a good thing. But, that is only half of the story. All the coercion talk ignores one major fact. YHVH, the God of Israel, sent his only Son to suffer a humiliating and excruciating death to save YOU from eternal damnation.
He has already done his part.

A little gratitude might be appropriate, don't you think?

 

[Happy Trails]

This is totally false and misleading. What you believe is what you think, and if you do not believe what the Bible says about Jesus, it will not matter what you do or do not do.

Only your interpretation is misleading.

If that single line out of all I have said brings you to that conclusion, then you are taking it out of context.

The Bible says that Jesus was a teacher of the Torah, and He taught His followers to do and teach the Torah.

Jesus obeyed the Torah perfectly and invited everyone to follow Him.

So, you're right. If you do not believe that Jesus taught the Torah and told us to obey it as well, then it won't matter what you do. Maathew 7:23

 

[Happy Trails]

Confusion about the Law.
I'm not confused....just don't tell me what to do.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Happy Trails]

She's not?

No.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I summarized them at the end of the opening post for the thread:

The Law:
Observe THESE days, not THOSE days.
Eat THIS, not THAT.
Have sexual relations with THIS person, not THOSE persons.
Be honest and kind to everyone, including the heathens.

If I don't observe ANY religious holidays, I am not cursed. (Jesus redeemed me from the curse. Deuteronomy 11:26-28)
If I observe pagan holidays after "accepting Jesus" (we can certainly discuss that as a separate issue) I may be saved, but I am NOT rewarded in the world to come. I can't enter the city and see Jesus on the throne. (Revelation 22:14) In fact, that is what makes me the adulterer who cannot enter the city. (Revelation 22:15)
If I obey YHVH I am blessed in this life, I am taught by the Ruach HaQodesh in this life, and I am rewarded in the world to come. It's the trifecta of righteousness.

It doesn't matter if you think YHVH is Jesus, or not, or if Michael is Jesus, or not, or if YHVH is an octopus, or not. We are judged according to our works, NOT about what we think. Matthew 7:21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:12-13.

NONE of us has the capacity to understand the depth of the mind and essence of YHVH. So, why argue about it?

The ONLY thing he cares about is, "did you show your love to me through your obedience?"

Because he knows our hearts, he can see a person who hates him going through the motions. He saw that a lot. He still sees it.

Dead works are those that honor dead gods. Living works honor the One True Elohim, the Living God of Israel. The days you observe tell me who your God is. More importantly, they tell HIM who your God is.

"Guard the Sabbath" and "love YHVH" are the 2 most repeated Commandments in the Bible. The second one is invariably coupled with "obeying the Commandments."

Christians constantly make philosophical arguments about why they don't have to obey YHVH. Paul warned us about that in the second chapter of Colossians. The reason is their lack of nuance. The only reason they do anything is "does it get ya saved?" I can't tell you how many times I have heard Christians say "keeping the Commandments doesn't save you!"

I reply, "Of course not. The Commandments are what a saved person does to grow spiritually and to become sanctified, or set apart, from the world. The world goes to church on Sunday, The world celebrates Christmas. The world celebrates Easter. If you love the world, the love of the Father is not in you. 1 John 2:15

Rather than be in love with the idea of knowing the Father better, they search for excuses why they can still get into heaven while being completely rebellious. Rather than being led by the Holy Spirit to search the depths of the mind of the Creator and his Image, they choose to stay at the entry level of Christianity. They imagine they know what the last 25% of the Bible means without having a clue about the first 75%.

The Torah is college for Christians. Almost all of them are in the first grade and their hubris keeps them away from real understanding. That's why they think they are going to spend eternity in heaven. They think Grandma is looking down on little Johnny playing football. It's sad. They haven't actually read the Bible. They only know conveniently numbered sound bites that they twist to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16

This thread is a perfect example. Christianese platitudes and flawed logic. They have been convinced by the Babylonian leadership that disobeying God is what God wants them to do. It is the mystery of iniquity. It is the mystery of "disobeying God is how you gain his favor."

Christians have laws sir, simple as that. You even stated we have to obey them We are judged according to our works, NOT about what we think. Matthew 7:21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:12-13.
So that kind of makes your post a bit contradictory. Jesus set the example and assigned his followers to teach all the things he commanded, and to obey them as well. Salvation is dependent upon that obedience, as we agree on.

 

[Ziggy]

A little gratitude might be appropriate, don't you think?

 

[Happy Trails]

Christians have laws sir, simple as that. You even stated we have to obey them We are judged according to our works, NOT about what we think. Matthew 7:21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:12-13.
So that kind of makes your post a bit contradictory. Jesus set the example and assigned his followers to teach all the things he commanded, and to obey them as well. Salvation is dependent upon that obedience, as we agree on.

I don't know what laws Christians have. There is only One Law and One Lawgiver.

I don't believe I said "salvation is dependent on that obedience."
I believe I said we SHOULD obey YHVH, not that we HAVE to.
A person who loved the one that made his salvation possible would WANT to obey.
A person filled with the Spirit of YHVH would be passionate and excited about obeying him.
They would know that the Law is what guards them from the pollution of idols.

Sometimes, it is impossible do all that the Law would require.
However, one would try to do all he could. After all, that is HOW YHVH teaches his people. A person who wanted to know the heart and mind of his Creator would need to know what he said, why he said it, and why it is important.

If salvation depended on obedience, how much obedience is required? 100%? 70%? 51%?

Salvation is a free gift. It's such an awesome gift that I want to show YHVH how much I appreciate it. I do that by obeying him.

I don't want to be standing at the bottom of Zion wishing I could walk up, enter the city and actually SEE Jesus sitting on His throne. I would hate to think stubbornly holding on to the traditions of men would cheat me out of that experience.

 

[Happy Trails]

And so there is no violation of the law when you walk according to the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:23).

"Walking after the fruit of the Spirit" is a phrase you have manufactured.

You can walk after the Spirit, and thereby produce fruit.

But, a person walking after the Spirit is not going to produce disobedience to God's Word.

That makes no sense.

 

[Happy Trails]

No, that's just what you heard, lol.

"You are a dead, fruitless branch with no life in it. A branch that will be scooped up and thrown into the fire when Christ comes back, because it is dead."

I am teaching obedience to God. You said that made me a dead branch that will be thrown into the fire.

 

[GEN2REV]

The deeds of the flesh are the exact opposite of the Law.

The prophetic shadow of the rest we have yet to enter is the Sabbath.

2 Peter 3:8. The 1,000 year reign of Messiah is the fulfillment of the prophetic week. From Adam, we have enjoyed almost 6,000 years of human history. The Sabbath is coming soon.

Moses was prevented from entering the promised land because he destroyed the prophetic shadow of Messiah.

So, do you believe in obeying the 10 Commandments?

Because you can't really believe in obeying the 4th Commandment (the Sabbath of Creation) AND embrace the concept of the Millennium-Sabbath period. They contradict one another.

 

[GEN2REV]

During the time of the law I would expect Jesus' disciples to do nothing less. But now, in this New Covenant of faith, not law, there are some laws we simply do not have to literally keep anymore. And not because the coming of Christ destroyed them, casting them down. But because they find their fulfillment in the finished work of Christ such that no further fulfillment is necessary.

And this makes perfect sense because now you only have to obey NINE Laws, as opposed to the full 10, right?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

"You are a dead, fruitless branch with no life in it. A branch that will be scooped up and thrown into the fire when Christ comes back, because it is dead."

I am teaching obedience to God. You said that made me a dead branch that will be thrown into the fire.

Only if your obedience to God does not include the fruit of the Spirit.

How we love people according to the fruit of the Spirit is definitely the fruit spoken about that the Christian bears through Jesus Christ. No fruit ultimately indicates you aren't connected to Jesus Christ and shows you aren't drawing on the life giving sap of the Holy Spirit of the vine. You are a dead, fruitless branch with no life in it. A branch that will be scooped up and thrown into the fire when Christ comes back, because it is dead.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And this makes perfect sense because now you only have to obey NINE Laws, as opposed to the full 10, right?

The sabbath command is already fulfilled for me through the work of Christ on the cross on my behalf. Just like circumcision, for example, was fulfilled for me and every other believer through the work of Christ on the cross. And various other laws, too.

So this isn't about not 'keeping' anything. It's about what requirements of law are already fulfilled for us and, therefore, don't require any further action on our part.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

"Walking after the fruit of the Spirit" is a phrase you have manufactured.

In context, here it is:

"22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit." Galatians 5:22-25
​

Further reference to this can be found in Romans 8.

 

[GEN2REV]

The sabbath command is already fulfilled for me through the work of Christ on the cross on my behalf. Just like circumcision, for example, was fulfilled for me and every other believer through the work of Christ on the cross. And various other laws, too.

So this isn't about not 'keeping' anything. It's about what requirements of law are already fulfilled for us and, therefore, don't require any further action on our part.

Is rest and reverence 'action'?

What action is required by the 10 Commandments?

All of them are a "don't" besides the Sabbath Commandment which tells us to rest and honor God. Where's the action?

The Holy Spirit empowers us to obey. It is His work, not ours.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No.

Gee, you know how to ruin a man's day.

 

[Happy Trails]

So, do you believe in obeying the 10 Commandments?

Because you can't really believe in obeying the 4th Commandment (the Sabbath of Creation) AND embrace the concept of the Millennium-Sabbath period. They contradict one another.

Explain how you think they contradict each other.

Then, I will explain how they don't.

 

[Happy Trails]

Gee, you know how to ruin a man's day.

Sorry, Bueller.....

Granny will be raised on the Last Day, just like Lazarus, just like all that are His at His coming.

John 6:54
1 Thessalonians 4:16

 

[Happy Trails]

In context, here it is:

"22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit." Galatians 5:22-25
​

Further reference to this can be found in Romans 8.

Yea. Romans 8!

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The carnal mind cannot and will not submit to the authority of God's Law.

 

[GEN2REV]

Explain how you think they contradict each other.

Then, I will explain how they don't.

Because those who believe the Millennium is the 1,000 year period of rest, believe that the Days of Creation are 1,000 year periods of time. That's one of the ways they justify the need for a 7th 1,000 year period of time after Jesus returns.

They believe that Day = 1,000 years and thus the 7th Day must mean the Millennium time period, contrary to Leviticus 23:32.

They use 2 Peter 3:8 (inaccurately) to support the idea that the Days of Creation are these millennial time periods and claim there will be a 7th which will be an era of rest as the Commandment prescribes, ignoring the literal nature of Genesis 2:2-3.

I suppose you could believe in obeying the 10 Commandments, literally, and believe in a Millennium time period, but you might not be very familiar with all of the facets of the Millennium concept. For instance, one of the main beliefs about the need for the Millennium is that the land promises to Israel were not completed by God and must be fulfilled when Jesus returns. Joshua makes very clear that all of the promises were fulfilled thousands of years ago. So that excuse goes out the window.

There is no verse anywhere in scripture that states anything at all about any 1,000 year time period outside of Revelation 20:1-7. So the entire doctrine is made up from 7 verses in one book that are supported nowhere else in scripture.

To take the 10 Commandments literally, which I fully support, while also embracing a doctrine that is very non-literal and based on almost 100% supposition is a little imbalanced, but to each his own I suppose.