Only Believers are Resurrected?

[GEN2REV]

All believers are IN Christ, dad!!

They believe IN Christ.

Great, so they will be with Him one day, not thrown into hell.

And if they're IN Christ, they can sure as shootin' be thrown into hell.

"Every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit ... (is taken away)...If a man abide not (does not remain) IN ME, he is cast forth ... and is withered; ... and ... cast into the fire, and ... burned."
John 15:2
John 15:6

 

[dad]

And if they're IN Christ, they can sure as shootin' be thrown into hell.

I disagree

"Every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit ... (is taken away)

That is not saved people being tossed into hell.
The context in John 15 is bearing fruit, not salvation!
John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

...If a man abide not (does not remain) IN ME, he is cast forth ... and is withered; ... and ... cast into the fire, and ... burned."
John 15:2
John 15:6

So yes, of course the works of some people can be burned. That is not salvation or hell.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand

As for men that do not sincerely accept Jesus and His free gift of eternal life, they never did abide in Him. Maybe they claimed to or appeared to men to do so. God is not an 'indian giver'.

 

[The Disciple John]

According to the language set forth in John 5:28 Jesus said, marvel not that is don't be surprised for the hour is coming for the time is coming one event one resurrection for both the "saved" and the "unsaved" will hear His voice and come forth.

I think I know where you are going with this but go ahead and make your comment.

To God Be The Glory

Reminds me of John 6:39-44.

 

[The Disciple John]

Well, there are at least two places I could go with it.

1. If you agree that there will be only one resurrection, which is what I believe and observe Scripture teaching - due in part to the fact that the words Second Resurrection are found nowhere in Scripture, this means that there cannot be any type of Millennium period after Christ's return for all the events to take place at the end of that time, most specifically the false 2nd Resurrection.

2. If you agree that there is no Second Resurrection, this means that there cannot be a Millennium after the 2nd Advent because that doctrine claims that all of the sinners will be raised/resurrected at the end of that 1,000 year period, but that cannot take place if there is only one resurrection.

Jesus tells us in John 6:44 that He raises only those the Father sends Him. This proves that there is a number of people that do not get raised. He also tells us in John 6 that we must receive Eternal Spiritual Life, which is contained in His Spirit, in order to have Spiritual Life within us. Not every human being receives the Holy Spirit, nor this Spiritual Life that He speaks of. Therefore, not every human being will be resurrected. It is simple math.

John 5:28 is the same verse that is being repeatedly offered here as proof of two resurrections, but all that verse shows is a single resurrection with two outcomes for those who are raised.

ETA: As Enoch and the Gospels tell us, the sinful dead go straight to hell upon death. No reason at all to raise them; they have been judged.

There is a first resurrection, over whom the second death has no authority. Revelation 20:5-6
Since there are those whom the second death does have authority Revelation 20:12-15, and these are resurrected, then reasonably, they were part of a second resurrection.

The first resurrection is for those who will be kings and priest with Christ for the thousand years. Revelation 20:6
Reasonably, the second resurrection would be for those who do not have that prospect, but will have the prospect of living under that rule... if they are found written in the book of life. Revelation 21:3-4; Revelation 7:17

 

[GEN2REV]

That is not saved people being tossed into hell.

It is people IN Christ. Do you seriously believe sinners/unbelievers are IN Christ?

... yes, of course the works of some people can be burned.

Fruit represents the fruit of the Spirit. Not works. These are Godly characteristics of the Holy Spirit that are either manifesting in those who are IN Christ, or they are not. None of John 15 has anything to do with works.

And even if you could make the case that it were referring to people's works, which you cannot, it is not the fruit that is being burned. It is unmistakably THEM that are being burned. The branches.

We are the branches, Jesus is the vine. He makes that clear in verse 1.
John 15:1

As for men that do not sincerely accept Jesus and His free gift of eternal life, they never did abide in Him. Maybe they claimed to or appeared to men to do so. God is not an 'indian giver'.

Abide means to remain. You can't remain somewhere you never previously existed.

Of course God's not an indian giver, but that doesn't apply here because it's not God that is taking something away, it is men who are giving it up, throwing it away.

 

[GEN2REV]

Since there are those whom the second death does have authority Revelation 20:12-15, and these are resurrected, then reasonably, they were part of a second resurrection.

This is terrible logic. Multiple faulty conclusions here.

The first resurrection is for those who will be kings and priest with Christ for the thousand years.

Priests can only function as mediators on the earth. Those who are resurrected do not return to the earth, and there is no earth to return to per 2 Peter 3:10-11.There will be no need to mediate anything in heaven for God will be visibly present.

Revelation 20:6 Reasonably, the second resurrection would be for those who do not have that prospect, but will have the prospect of living under that rule... if they are found written in the book of life. Revelation 21:3-4; Revelation 7:17

Speaking of the book of life. Only believers, elect, those IN Christ, are found therein. God blots out those who are unworthy per Revelation 3:4-5.

That means zero sinners/unbelievers will be found within those books. So tell me, how is it that Revelation 20:12 speaks of those people being judged out of the Book of Life??

The only way is that those who are present in that verse are Christians. NOT sinners/unbelievers from some non-existent Second Resurrection.

 

[dad]

It is people IN Christ. Do you seriously believe sinners/unbelievers are IN Christ?

That is about fruits. If people really are sincere they will be in Him. We will not be burned in hell once we are saved. Our works can be burned and cast into the fire by men. No man can pluck us from His hand.
The only thing men can cast away and burn is something like our works if they are not of God.

Fruit represents the fruit of the Spirit. Not works.

Fruit is what a tree bears. In the case of some trees, that has nothing to do with the fruit of the spirit!

These are Godly characteristics of the Holy Spirit that are either manifesting in those who are IN Christ, or they are not. None of John 15 has anything to do with works.

Says you. However Paul talked of a man's works being burned and yet he himself still being saved. Those people were 'in'. Yet they were saved so as by fire. In some cases even their bodies had to be given to Satan that their spirit might live! You cannot latch onto one verse and ignore the rest of the bible to try to make it look as if it supports your opinion.

And even if you could make the case that it were referring to people's works, which you cannot, it is not the fruit that is being burned. It is unmistakably THEM that are being burned. The branches.

So either they were 'in' Jesus in name only, or if they were actually saved, then they were 'burned' for their own good, and it has zero to do with salvation. Some people have fiery trials for their good. others may have to be allowed to die or get sick for their own good, etc etc etc.

We are the branches, Jesus is the vine. He makes that clear in verse 1.

Correct.

John 15:1Abide means to remain. You can't remain somewhere you never previously existed.

Many apostate churches are considered to remain in the faith. But as I said, if any are in Him in truth, then any burning or purging is for their own good. Nothing to do with eternal death and torment and hell.

Of course God's not an indian giver, but that doesn't apply here because it's not God that is taking something away, it is men who are giving it up, throwing it away.

False. When He says no man can take us from being saved and in the Father's hand that INCLUDES ourselves!!

 

[The Disciple John]

This is terrible logic. Multiple faulty conclusions here.

Priests can only function as mediators on the earth.

That's according to you. Not according to the Bible.
Hebrews 2:16-3:1; Hebrews 4:14-15
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 8:1-2
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Hebrews 9:11-28
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Those who are resurrected do not return to the earth, and there is no earth to return to per 2 Peter 3:10-11.

2 Peter 3:10 But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare.
Does not agree with your statement.

Speaking of the book of life. Only believers, elect, those IN Christ, are found therein. God blots out those who are unworthy per Revelation 3:5.

That means zero sinners/unbelievers will be found within those books. So tell me, how is it that Revelation 20:12 speaks of those people being judged out of the Book of Life??

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I read about books of life, and a book of life, in verse 12
They are judged out of the things written in the books of life.
In verse 15, those not found written in the book of life, are destroyed.
You don't read that? Then break down verse 12 for me.

The only way is that those who are present in that verse are Christians. NOT sinners/unbelievers from some non-existent Second Resurrection.

You say that. The verses do not say that, but disagree, per John 5:28, And Revelation 20:12

 

[The Disciple John]

This is terrible logic. Multiple faulty conclusions here.

There is a first resurrection, over whom the second death has no authority. Revelation 20:5-6
Do you agree or disagree?

Since there are those whom the second death does have authority Revelation 20:12-15, and these are resurrected, then reasonably, they were part of a second resurrection.
If you disagree, then please explain whom these are that are standing before the throne, being judged, and experiencing the second death. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

 

[GEN2REV]

That is about fruits. If people really are sincere they will be in Him. We will not be burned in hell once we are saved. Our works can be burned and cast into the fire by men. No man can pluck us from His hand.
The only thing men can cast away and burn is something like our works if they are not of God.
Fruit is what a tree bears. In the case of some trees, that has nothing to do with the fruit of the spirit!
Says you. However Paul talked of a man's works being burned and yet he himself still being saved. Those people were 'in'. Yet they were saved so as by fire. In some cases even their bodies had to be given to Satan that their spirit might live! You cannot latch onto one verse and ignore the rest of the bible to try to make it look as if it supports your opinion.
So either they were 'in' Jesus in name only, or if they were actually saved, then they were 'burned' for their own good, and it has zero to do with salvation. Some people have fiery trials for their good. others may have to be allowed to die or get sick for their own good, etc etc etc.
Correct.

Many apostate churches are considered to remain in the faith. But as I said, if any are in Him in truth, then any burning or purging is for their own good. Nothing to do with eternal death and torment and hell.
False. When He says no man can take us from being saved and in the Father's hand that INCLUDES ourselves!!

You're not going to admit to being wrong about anything no matter how much Biblical proof is presented to you.

That's called cognitive dissonance, living in delusion and ceasing to be honest.

 

[GEN2REV]

Fair points on the Priest's function. I understood a priest to be a mediator between man and God; between heaven and earth. But Jesus is certainly our king and priest currently.

I stand corrected.

2 Peter 3:10 But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare.
Does not agree with your statement.

You're using a terrible Bible version. Try the KJV wording. It makes crystal clear that the earth will be destroyed.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yeah, good point. I guess some Christians, who believe in Jesus and will be resurrected, will not be written in the Book of Life and will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[GEN2REV]

There is a first resurrection, over whom the second death has no authority. Revelation 20:5-6
Do you agree or disagree?

I agree Rev. 20:5-6 exists, I don't agree with your translation of it. Your translation is that it takes place 1,000 years after Christ's return. I don't agree with that and neither does the bulk of Scripture. It is what is called an anomaly with no support within the Bible.

It has a significance, and it means something important (like a restating of the rest of the end times verses contained in Matthew 24:29-31; Isaiah 13:9-11; 1 Corinthians 4:16-17; 2 Peter 3:10-11, etc.), but it doesn't mean what it is traditionally claimed by modern Bible teachers to mean.

Since there are those whom the second death does have authority Revelation 20:12-15, and these are resurrected, then reasonably, they were part of a second resurrection.

No. That does not add up like you believe, and claim, it does. You are assuming certain variables that have no proof in Scripture.

If you disagree, then please explain whom these are that are standing before the throne, being judged, and experiencing the second death. Thanks.

Rev. 20:10-15 appear to me to be a symbolic (signified Rev. 1:1) re-stating of what takes place in 1 Corinthians 15:22-27.

Can YOU see there how Rev. 20:14 lines up with 1 Cor. 15:26?

The passage in 1 Cor. 15 tells us that Christ's reign ENDS at that time, and along with that END is the end of all His enemies, the last being death.

The verse in Rev. 20:14 says that death is cast into the Lake of Fire, that being the Second Death. Do YOU see that?

So, ... Rev. 20 is a symbolic re-statement of end times passages from elsewhere in Scripture in books that ARE NOT symbolic, or signified with signs and symbols.

 

[dad]

You're not going to admit to being wrong about anything no matter how much Biblical proof is presented to you.

That's called cognitive dissonance, living in delusion and ceasing to be honest.

Ignoring context and the rest of the bible is all that actually. He loses none. He is the Good Shepherd. Branches get pruned and purged, and even some get burned, but all for their good. Knowing God is anything but cognitive dissonance. Your religious hardness is what is inflexible and wrong.

We do not get burned in hell! All trials and in some cases burns have ZERO to do with hell or losing what He gave.

 

[GEN2REV]

@The Disciple John

Any good reason why you refuse to discuss these things in the thread I've directed you to multiple times now?

Amillennialism versus Dispensationalism

 

[GEN2REV]

Ignoring context and the rest of the bible is all that actually. He loses none. He is the Good Shepherd. Branches get pruned and purged, and even some get burned, but all for their good. Knowing God is anything but cognitive dissonance. Your religious hardness is what is inflexible and wrong.

We do not get burned in hell! All trials and in some cases burns have ZERO to do with hell or losing what He gave.

The doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved is so disjointed in relation to what the Bible plainly teaches that it is a perfect reflection of the state of spiritual blindness that its adherents undoubtedly suffer from.

You know not, neither will you ever understand: you walk on in darkness.
Psalms 82:5

OSAS ignores so many fundamental teachings of Scripture. If it were sound doctrine, there would be no spiritual battle being waged. No need for Ephesians 6:12. No need for 1 Peter 5:8. No need for Matthew 24:13. No need for the Beattitudes of Matthew 5 - the Sermon on the Mount. No need for Acts 20:29. No need for 1 John 3:4. And so on and so forth.

It's a total and utter charade.

I feel sorry for you.

The fact that only believers are resurrected proves OSAS is a total joke due to the fact that some of those resurrected believers are raised to damnation. Many will say to Him in that day "Lord, Lord..." but will be rejected despite all their good deeds, and their conviction that they were right with God, due to the fact that they worked iniquity - they committed habitual sin by breaking the Commandments regularly and they taught others to do the same.
Matthew 7:22-23

 

[dad]

The doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved is so disjointed in relation to what the Bible plainly teaches that it is a perfect reflection of the state of spiritual blindness that its adherents undoubtedly suffer from.
You know not, neither will you ever understand: you walk on in darkness.
Psalms 82:5

Not sharing deluded opinions is not darkness.You might as well tell us that this verse really means 'God will send you to everlasting fire and torments and you will no longer be forgiven, or covered or saved etc.
Psalm 32:1
Blessed is he
whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.

We can add hundreds of other verses that make it clear His nature and promises that you tread underfoot.

OSAS ignores so many fundamental teachings of Scripture. If it were sound doctrine, there would be no spiritual battle being waged. No need for Ephesians 6:12. No need for 1 Peter 5:8. No need for Matthew 24:13. No need for the Beattitudes of Matthew 5 - the Sermon on the Mount. No need for Acts 20:29. No need for 1 John 3:4. And so on and so forth.

Do explain what that word salad means inside your religious head?

The fact that only believers are resurrected proves OSAS is a total joke due to the fact that some of those resurrected believers are raised to damnation.

There is no such fact, so all that proves is that you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Many will say to Him in that day "Lord, Lord..." but will be rejected despite all their good deeds, and their conviction that they were right with God, due to the fact that they worked iniquity - they committed habitual sin by breaking the Commandments regularly and they taught others to do the same.
Matthew 7:22-23

They were not saved. Just nommies that like to blather.

 

[Brakelite]

6 days.

The Sabbath also was made by the Lord, for
KJV John 1:3
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Brakelite]

That's not what E.G.White taught. Research it from her book The Great Controversy.

Those are quotes from the Great Controversy.

 

[Brakelite]

When Christ comes to take His people home, then a judgement must have already been made as to their fitness for glory correct,? The angels must already know who is saved and who is lost before they gather the elect from the 4 corners of the earth. Which means that there is a form of judgement taking place now... Before Christ comes. A judgement of the righteous... Being first the house of God. Judgement of the wicked takes place during the millennium. The dead are judged. The execution of that judgement takes place at the end of the millennium. No-one is alive on the planet during the millennium except evil angels. The planet after the 7 plagues is uninhabitable.

 

[GEN2REV]

Those are quotes from the Great Controversy.

Not in that particular post they weren't.

I saw your post(s) w GC quotes and responded to them.