A Discussion About Truth

[bbyrd009]

God would then take the procreative drive away from mankind so that having offspring (or what caused it) was no longer a desire in humankind

seems like just a diff kind of death to me, and one that also violates There is only One Immortal and maybe some others

The other option I guess would be to make other planets habitable and call for ‘pioneers’ to go there and populate a new world? What is to stop him eventually filling the entire Universe with life if he wants to?

it does seem inevitable that there are other habitable planets for us, ya. And im not seeing three score and ten as much more than a statement of what currently is, even considering the rest of the v

 

[bbyrd009]

how can we have eternal life in Christ without an immortal soul?

by understanding the meaning of “eternal” imo

 

[BarneyFife]

I know this is a real sticking point with SDA's

(I guess we're doin' this. )
It's not so much a sticking point as it is a glaringly loose end that 98+% of Christians refuse to tie up.

just from the Christian scriptures I see absolutely no support for keeping a weekly Sabbath.

What about the copious amounts that recount Jesus trying to teach His people how to keep it correctly.

Why would He do that if He was getting ready to just -86- it?

And what in the world are "Christian scriptures?" Do you mean the ones that Paul and Peter and Jesus used to teach the New Covenant?

Geographically it is impossible to keep the Sabbath for all worshippers around the world on the same day of the week. The international date line presents a challenge because the date line is an imaginary line that runs for the most part through the Pacific Ocean along the 180th meridian. Countries to the west of the date line are one day ahead of those to the east. When Israel was in one geographical location, the keeping of the Sabbath was not difficult, but now that they occupy every land, how is the seventh day Saturday in some parts but Friday in others?

Aunty, I take you as being a little too intelligent to be using a sophomoric argument like this against the Sabbath. And that's no back-handed compliment, either.

Besides that, can you provide a scripture that commands Christians to observe the Sabbath?

Well before about 1980, at least 90% of Christians would have answered this question like this:

Exodus 20
8Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God, on which you must not do any work—neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant or livestock, nor the foreigner within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, but on the seventh day He rested. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

But now that the Old Testament has been retired, I'd probably go with this:

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. (1 Corinthians 7:19)

I can't help but suspect that you know who is being referred to here as "God."

Jesus held the Sabbath observance because he was Jewish and under Law, but Paul indicated that the old Law was done away with when the new covenant came into force. Under inspiration, he wrote: “Therefore let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; for those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17)

Jesus did this but Paul said that...
(And John said <see below> and James said, etc., etc., and on and on)
I honestly don't understand all of the resistance to the 4th commandment.
It truly boggles my mind. It's a surreal decades-long moment.
When I was a kid, nobody I knew or heard of (and my dad will bear me out on this, because he was always 20 years' worth more aware than I, and a world traveler) was trying to reason their way out of keeping the 4th commandment. They were just mixed up about which day of the week was being addressed.
I honestly don't get it.

Unless, the world has crept into the church with its anti-authority mentality, which I cannot but highly suspect, giving the eyewitness evidence to which I am privy, but which so many others of my generation either missed, ignored, deny, or were themselves artfully deceived.

How is the 4th commandment a shadow of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

I can't say for sure, but I'd conjecture that if you look into the mid-20th century archives of Witness reading material on this subject (if there are any) you won't find this kind of anti-Sabbath reasoning or sentiment.

Sabbath-keeping became an integral part of life for the Israelites.....and for the Jews it still is a very important law

You can just imagine, what with it being a central focal point of the moral code for human beings, etched by the finger of Jehovah, the Creator of human beings, on tablets of stone amidst thunderings and lightings and other scary stuff, and all.

 

[BarneyFife]

In Israel, every new multistory building erected since 2001 must have at least one elevator that automatically stops at each floor, so that devout Jews, who observe the Sabbath from Friday evening until Saturday evening, do not have to do the “work” of pressing the buttons in an elevator.

Yeah, Jesus was trying to get them out of goofy habits like that, but clearly they never got the picture.

To be honest, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else or create an undue physical, mental, or emotional burden, I say a person ought to be able to hallow the Sabbath as much as they want.

I am not sure how strictly SDA's observe their Sabbath? Perhaps you can enlighten me?

There are some pretty firm guidelines: no work meant for personal gain; no unnecessary commerce; there ought to be some gathering for worship; it out to be made as delightful as possible; and some special effort ought to be made to relieve both the basic and religious burdens of others.

But other than these things, for the most part, people are left on their own as to how they choose to honor the memorial of Creation and Redemption. Don't quote me on this. Looking back, I can already see a few holes in it.

There's lots of good, innovative, creative information available about how to make the most of a Sabbath-keeping. It's become to me like the weekly equivalent of being a kid at Christmastime. (When I was a kid, my religious orientation was okay with Christmas—sorry if that illustration offends anyone.)

Now however, Christians are under a new law, “the law of the Christ.”

1 John 2
3We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5But if anyone obeys his word, love for God a is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in Him must live AS JESUS DID. 7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8Yet I am writing you a new command; ITS TRUTH IS SEEN IN HIM and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

The former Law covenant given through Moses to Israel, came to an end when Jesus’ death fulfilled it.

This is a very popular misunderstanding of covenants, unfortunately. I know that folks have very elaborate systems of erroneous misinterpretations concerning this but, nevertheless, folks have a right to be wrong with intricacy and complexity. Voluminous error is still error. Nothing personal, Aunty, and I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way, because I really do respect your experience as a teacher, scholar, and even as a Christian.

However (and I'm open to the possibility that I might be preaching to the choir), the old covenant was never meant to be an actual or even complete system of redemption, in and of itself. Believers before the Calvary event were saved exactly the same way as those who came after.

There are many covenants in the Bible and to designate old and new as being completely and mutually exclusive is over-simplifying the problem of sin. I've often said (and heard) that the problem with legalists as well as antinomianists is that they don't take the law seriously enough.


The Bible calls the ten commandments a "covenant" in toto.
The old covenant was, essentially, a divine scare tactic to get the Hebrews to realize that they needed a mediator.

But the Hebrews practically started out as Pharisees: "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do." (Exodus 19:6)

This is why the LORD found fault with the people, not the covenant itself. (Hebrews 8:8)

So the covenant of ten commandments, which God Himself presented, in the most imposing manner hardly imaginable, are eternal, and are certainly the law Jeremiah spoke of that was to be written on the hearts of Judah and Israel. Unless one believes the sacrificial rites are being referred to in this context.

because it was a perfect law, there is also no law against it.

Perfection with no authority... ?

The only two laws we are bound and obligated to keep are those mentioned by Jesus .....'to love Jehovah with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength...and to love our neighbor as ourselves.'

...unless we are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4)

(I really didn't aim to go down this road.)

 

[theefaith]

by understanding the meaning of “eternal” imo

how?

 

[BarneyFife]

 

[BarneyFife]

well could be i guess, considering that time is not a factor to Yah?

I don't know if I would say 'not a factor' because He seems to be just letting it run, for the most part. But to be sure, He is not bound by the constraints of the things of His own conception, which would include... everything - lol

I mean He really doesn't even have to allow free will (oh boy) to play out.

I say that only to His glory.

(And I will, uncharacteristically, flip the -ignore- switch on anyone who starts with the "vessels of wrath" bit.)

 

[BarneyFife]

 

[bbyrd009]

how?

search “eternal” in a Bible engine,
pick a verse,
click “LEX”click on the term you want to study, and bada-bing

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't know if I would say 'not a factor' because He seems to be just letting it run, for the most part. But to be sure, He is not bound by the constraints of the things of His own conception, which would include... everything - lol

I mean He really doesn't even have to allow free will (oh boy) to play out.

I say that only to His glory.

(And I will, uncharacteristically, flip the -ignore- switch on anyone who starts with the "vessels of wrath" bit.)

i guess its kinda hard to see how satan might be serving Yah, huh
but we have a pretty good passage for that i guess…prolly a couple even

 

[Wrangler]

If Jesus were God, why is it important to come to the Father? It's odd that a triune being would parse hisself like that.

Or parse himself ever, including this. Yet, there are many such verses.
1 Corinthians 15:27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)

 

[Wrangler]

You're actually going to attempt to derail this into a "Godhead" thing, now?

Really, Wrang?

Oh. Sorry. I haven't followed this thread very closely lately. I saw the pic and replied.

 

[BarneyFife]

Oh. Sorry. I haven't followed this thread very closely lately. I saw the pic and replied.

No prob. I gotta ask tho. How does the pic provoke anti-trin?

 

[farouk]

(I guess we're doin' this. )
It's not so much a sticking point as it is a glaringly loose end that 98+% of Christians refuse to tie up.


What about the copious amounts that recount Jesus trying to teach His people how to keep it correctly.

Why would He do that if He was getting ready to just -86- it?

And what in the world are "Christian scriptures?" Do you mean the ones that Paul and Peter and Jesus used to teach the New Covenant?


Aunty, I take you as being a little too intelligent to be using a sophomoric argument like this against the Sabbath. And that's no back-handed compliment, either.



Well before about 1980, at least 90% of Christians would have answered this question like this:

Exodus 20
8Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God, on which you must not do any work—neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant or livestock, nor the foreigner within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, but on the seventh day He rested. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

But now that the Old Testament has been retired, I'd probably go with this:

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. (1 Corinthians 7:19)

I can't help but suspect that you know who is being referred to here as "God."



Jesus did this but Paul said that...
(And John said <see below> and James said, etc., etc., and on and on)
I honestly don't understand all of the resistance to the 4th commandment.
It truly boggles my mind. It's a surreal decades-long moment.
When I was a kid, nobody I knew or heard of (and my dad will bear me out on this, because he was always 20 years' worth more aware than I, and a world traveler) was trying to reason their way out of keeping the 4th commandment. They were just mixed up about which day of the week was being addressed.
I honestly don't get it.

Unless, the world has crept into the church with its anti-authority mentality, which I cannot but highly suspect, giving the eyewitness evidence to which I am privy, but which so many others of my generation either missed, ignored, deny, or were themselves artfully deceived.

How is the 4th commandment a shadow of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

I can't say for sure, but I'd conjecture that if you look into the mid-20th century archives of Witness reading material on this subject (if there are any) you won't find this kind of anti-Sabbath reasoning or sentiment.



You can just imagine, what with it being a central focal point of the moral code for human beings, etched by the finger of Jehovah, the Creator of human beings, on tablets of stone amidst thunderings and lightings and other scary stuff, and all.

I honestly find it hard to read JW material because so much of it is just so different from what Scripture actually says.

 

[Wrangler]

No prob. I gotta ask tho. How does the pic provoke anti-trin?

My question is a line of inquiry that did not occur to me until I saw the pic is all.

This thread, Truth, is about as general as one can get and can go in many directions, including the 4th century man-made doctrine.

I've been thinking of starting another thread on this but one truth that I don't quite understand is the relationship between:

1. All will be resurrected on Judgment Day.
2. Moses, who died, appeared to Jesus at the transfiguration. (Different from Elijah, who did not die).

Seems like the transfiguration is an exception to Judgment Day being a day when all will be resurrected, since Moses was resurrected ahead of time, ahead of Judgment Day.

 

[theefaith]

search “eternal” in a Bible engine,
View attachment 22905pick a verse, View attachment 22906
click “LEX”View attachment 22907click on the term you want to study, View attachment 22908and bada-bing

so we must act righteously right?

1 Jn 2: 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Is this a literal person?

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

is this a literal person?

No. This is a symbolic creature and the numbers connected with its heads and crowns have symbolic meaning as well. Satan wasn't ever really a serpent or a dragon, but he is depicted that way in scripture.
Revelation 12:7-9...
“And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

We are living in that time now.....with one awful disaster after another.

rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Who is “she”? And who or what does the “man child” represent? Revelation is written in symbolisms.
To my understanding, this was the birth of God’s Kingdom and the “woman” is symbolic as well, since no literal woman has the moon beneath her feet and a circlet of twelve stars about her head like a crown.....though we often see Mary depicted that way in Catholic statuary......this woman is NOT Mary. There is no gender in heaven.

2 Maccabees 12:46
It is therefore a holy and wholesomethought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

the promised land was a type of heaven!
The bondage down in Egypt was a type of purgatory!

how can we have eternal life in Christ without an immortal soul?

Please don’t present non-canonical works as if it’s inspired scripture. The very reason why it is not accepted as such by most “Christians” is because it is completely out of harmony with inspired scripture. There is no reason to pray for the dead....they are in the safest place imaginable. (Acts 24:15) An immortal soul makes the teaching of the resurrection redundant because you cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.

This part of your post is evidence of the false worship introduced by an apostate church that Jesus foretold.
Jesus was Jewish and the ancient Jews (as opposed to modern day Jews) had no belief in an immortal soul....that idea was adopted later from pagan Greek ideas about life after death. This notion permeates all false religion, but it is not a Bible teaching. The Jews believed in resurrection, which Jesus demonstrated when he raised Lazarus. (John 11:11-14) It was a restoration of life, not a continuation of it when the body dies. (Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him? If he was in heaven, why did he not mention where he had been? Why would Jesus bring him back to this life, only to die again?)

Nowhere does the Bible teach that life continues....that we don’t really die. It was the devil who promoted that lie in Eden, and he has continued to feed it to people all over the world in all the false religions he created. When Jesus said that he was “a liar and the father of the lie” that was one of the worst lies that people still believe to this day.

Mk 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

the immortal soul!

I’m afraid you have been misled.....”Hell” in that passage is “Gehenna”, which to Jesus’ Jewish audience was nothing to do with any “Hell” of eternal torment. Since the Jews had no belief in life after death, (except by a future resurrection when Messiah was ruling in God’s Kingdom) there was no need to invent places for them to go. In fact, not even God’s elect were to be raised before Christ’s return.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16....
“For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.”

"Gehenna" was a reference to the Valley of Hinnom, which was Jerusalem’s garbage dump, just outside the city walls. Fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (Sulfur) so that the garbage was continually consumed. The carcasses of dead animals and also the bodies of some executed criminals were also cast into the fire the be disposed of. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off. Nothing alive ever went into Gehenna. It was a symbol of no resurrection because there was no tomb with the person’s name and lineage, so to a Jew, this meant not being remembered in the resurrection.

At John 5:28-29, Jesus says that he will call all the dead out of their tombs, so in order to call them out of their graves, they must all still be in the place where they were buried, (figuratively if not literally). Solomon wrote that the dead are not conscious. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) In order to suffer or to feel joy, one must be alive and conscious....the dead are neither. They sleep peacefully in their final resting place, with no conscious activity open to them. I believe that is a great place for them to be.

Matt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

world to come????

the purpose of a parable is to convey a truth!

Yes....the “world to come” is this one, cleansed and transformed back into the paradise that God originally created for Adam and Eve. His first purpose did not include death....or heaven, but was included in the detour that the fall precipitated. Before sin entered into the world, there was no need for a Savior...or a Kingdom...or for any humans to go to heaven. By introducing the rule of God's Kingdom on the "last day" of 1,000 years of Christ's Kingdom, it will be time for bringing the earth and redeemed mankind back into reconciliation with their Creator. (Revelation 21:2-4) God has chosen those who will rule with his Christ and they will have earthly subjects......because Isaiah 55:11 states...
"So my word that goes out of my mouth will be.
It will not return to me without results,
But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight,
And it will have sure success in what I send it to do."

What God starts...he finishes.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I honestly find it hard to read JW material because so much of it is just so different from what Scripture actually says.

Would you like to explore those things that you say the Bible does not teach? Can we examine what the Bible actually says?

I was raised in Christendom, but I know better than to stick with the majority view of anything......I think you already know that much of what the churches teach is not true....so by what measure do you determine what is truth?

If "few" are on the road to life.....how do we determine who those "few" are, compared to the "many" who are on a superhighway to certain death? (Matthew 7:13-14) Who are those whom Jesus rejects at the judgment? What is it that disqualifies them? (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Can you tell me what this picture says to you? What does it suggest?

 

[BarneyFife]

Can you tell me what this picture says to you? What does it suggest?

Hi, Aunty!

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Revelation 3:20)​