A Discussion About Truth

[Aunty Jane]

Could this possibly be the pot calling the kettle black? -lol

I hope you understood that I was talking about myself....
I am not good at brevity....I am a teacher and details are important to me.
My students never have unanswered questions....

 

[Aunty Jane]

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Peter3:18-20
How could Jesus, after he was crucified go and preach to those who had no consciousness?

I think you need to read that again....who were “the spirit in prison” and what “prison” were they in?

Spirits spoken about in the Bible are always angelic...either good and faithful messengers of God or the rebellious demons who followed satan into disobedience and defection.
These rebellious “sons of God” materialised human form and procreated with the daughters of men. They and their hideous offspring were the ones responsible for the violence and immorality in the days of Noah and the reason why the deluge was brought on the world to eliminate them from existence along with all who were corrupted by them. When the flood came all the humans died except Noah and his family, safely on board the ark. But the demon angels were forced back to the spirit realm where God dealt with them by imprisoning them in a state of spiritual darkness, a state called “Tartarus” which is mentioned only once in all of scripture.

So the “spirits in prison” are not human souls....because there is no such thing an as an “immortal soul” in the Bible.
“Souls” are living, breathing creatures, (both human and animal) so when a soul stops breathing it dies....and returns to the dust. Only humans are promised a resurrection.

 

[stephen64]

I think you need to read that again....who were “the spirit in prison” and what “prison” were they in?

Spirits spoken about in the Bible are always angelic...either good and faithful messengers of God or the rebellious demons who followed satan into disobedience and defection.
These rebellious “sons of God” materialised human form and procreated with the daughters of men. They and their hideous offspring were the ones responsible for the violence and immorality in the days of Noah and the reason why the deluge was brought on the world to eliminate them from existence along with all who were corrupted by them. When the flood came all the humans died except Noah and his family, safely on board the ark. But the demon angels were forced back to the spirit realm where God dealt with them by imprisoning them in a state of spiritual darkness, a state called “Tartarus” which is mentioned only once in all of scripture.

So the “spirits in prison” are not human souls....because there is no such thing an as an “immortal soul” in the Bible.
“Souls” are living, breathing creatures, (both human and animal) so when a soul stops breathing it dies....and returns to the dust. Only humans are promised a resurrection.

Peter describes the people preached to as:
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Dead to this earth does not neccessarily mean dead/no consciousness full stop.

 

[stephen64]

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
Luke20:37&38

 

[BarneyFife]

I hope you understood that I was talking about myself....
I am not good at brevity....I am a teacher and details are important to me.
My students never have unanswered questions....

My bad, then.

 

[BarneyFife]

I hope you understood that I was talking about myself....
I am not good at brevity....I am a teacher and details are important to me.
My students never have unanswered questions....

If it helps any: I don't mind at all. I just can't type fast or think organizedly so it takes me forever to reply—even with the off-the-cuff stuff here and there. I'm a mess. Don't you just love long dashes? — — — — — — — lol
I'm a nut.

 

[Brakelite]

2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears,a we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is

I would assume He is the same as He was when He ascended into heaven, KJV Acts 1:11
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,
And we will see Him in the same manner those disciples did.

these last days when Christ was to return and oversee the greatest and most far-reaching preaching campaign the world had ever seen.

KJV Colossians 1:5-6
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
It has been estimated upon reliable historical sources that the gospel had reached China by the end of the 2nd century, and that entire kingdoms were converted, and we're still in existence there 1000 years later.
In Britain, the Celtic church was established on scripture before the end of the 1st century. The Galatians were Celtic, and traded across Italy, southern France, and into Britain, establishing Christian communities wherever they went. Curiam communities were established throughout Asia, some by the apostles themselves, such as Thomas.
While I agree that the time is coming for a powerful outpouring of the holy Spirit even greater than at the first pentecost, don't underestimate the extent and power of the former rain.

Jesus took the place of Zeus.

And that's a bad thing? If Zeus took the place of Jesus I would be concerned. Now, in art and in the formalism and ritualism that developed in the dark ages, there were no doubt a mix of the pagan and the Christian. And certainly many just changed names and allegiances to mollify t the demands of clerics and kings without any real relationship with Jesus Himself.
The most significant pagan idol still infecting Christianity is the presumed sacredness of Sunday, a day to which there is no hint in scripture suggesting it's replacement of the Lord's Sabbath. So if we are wanting to discuss truth in specific contexts, and how paganism affected Christianity and how they Lord requires a reformation, I suggest right there would be a great place to start.

 

[Aunty Jane]

OK....here we go again.....I always have too much to say because my answers have to be detailed or misunderstandings abound......so again, I’ll break it up... Sorry....I've written a novel again.....

Quite to the contrary, I believe he was stationed in the glory right before the throne of God because He knew that it was the best opportunity for him to humble himself and avoid the rise of pride in his heart and the subsequent rebellion. God will doubtless be revealed as being totally blameless for sin at the culmination of the controversy.

Not sure where you get that idea, but in the case of Job, satan was hardly humble....

How could anyone blame God for the sin of his free willed, intelligent creation? He gave humans the best start imaginable. But related to the nature of choices, is possible abuse of the privilege. To make a choice, one has to have options and the freedom to weigh those options was given under the best circumstances imaginable.

What happened in Eden tells us a lot about why God chose to do things incrementally, the way he did.
The fact is, that his spiritual family existed in the spirit realm for untold eons before God’s decision to bring material things into existence. The angels were present and applauding creation. (Job 38:4-7) The Universe itself is unfathomable to the human mind....so vast and unbounded....different to anything we see because everything is finite on this earth. But I am sure he has long range plans for the vastness of his creation, demonstrating through the creation account, how he tackles large projects incrementally, examining his work in stages to evaluate what he has accomplished.....this is why I say that our God is a Creator, not a magician.

This seems internally problematic to me since the devil had no one to tempt him and Adam and Eve surely did. There simply is no excuse for sin at any point along the progression of the disease (I'm not suggesting that you would believe otherwise—only stating for clarification's sake). Therefore the reason for its origin and existence cannot be explained fully, for to do so would excuse it. It is a mysterious intruder.

There is no possibility for creation, after the destruction of sin and unrepentant sinners, to be more functionally righteous than was Lucifer before the first glimmer of self-seeking entered his consciousness.

I agree....but wasn’t the functionality of any of God’s intelligent “sons” to be like their Creator? (Made in his image...endowed with his attributes?) Shouldn't those qualities have worked in their favor, motivating their actions for the better?

The only way to avoid a 2nd rebellion and yet preserve the existence of voluntary devotion to God is for the universe to have the eternal vaccine/antidote of the love expressed by the Lamb Of God and His scars to gaze upon and contemplate.

What Christ accomplished has major implications for God’s children in both realms. What he showed in obedience to his God was a great demonstration of the love that each of them had for the human race, and also for the benefit of testing his free willed creatures to the limit? Can we see what God's permission of free will has accomplished in both realms. At the end of the day, all of those who remain faithful to God out of genuine love (rather than fear of punishment) will get to enjoy the reinstatement of what he started way back in Eden. What Adam lost for his children, Jesus came to buy back for us with his precious blood.

Who knows how long God's creatures lived in peace and bliss before the Fall of Lucifer (I hope you don't object too much to that—it's what I'm used to calling him in his pre-terrestrial residence)? There is no reason it should ever have ceased to be so.

I agree, but precedents will be set for all time to come, so that no 'satan' or 'devil' will ever be able to raise opposition to God’s rightful Sovereignty again. Whatever God has planned for the rest of his vast Universe, it will be able to go ahead without impediment, all issues involving free will having been sorted out here on this insignificant planet, in one small location out of billions of galaxies.....

The big picture is bigger than most people imagine I think.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Lucifer of his own volition lost his hold on righteousness by faith in God's character, which was possible only because it was not automatonically imposed on him by his Creator. Love simply is not love unless it is voluntary. This is so important in my estimation.

If “love” is God’s most important quality, then love motivated everything he did and thought to accomplish. To give his creatures no choice in their thoughts and actions would be to have made them automatons. God clearly demonstrated that he did not want those around him to operate like robots who could just do his bidding....living beings can give God the one thing he cannot give himself....i.e. love and devotion from their heart. It’s also a product of free will....but like good and evil, there are always opposites. Choices are almost always between opposites and will have different outcomes. We are the victims of bad choices....but none of them are God’s bad choices.

But the depths of it cannot be plumbed by human perception. It is why both iniquity and godliness are called a "mystery."

As in all creation there must be opposites to have everything in balance. Creation itself teaches us this as we encounter opposites in our daily lives without thinking most of the time.
The only ‘opposite’ that God wanted to keep to himself was a knowledge of evil whilst he dispensed only good things to his children. God would be the arbiter of what is good and what is not....humans have demonstrated that they often do not know the difference.

Truth cannot be taken into the heart by mere mental assent. Spiritual regeneration is required to embark upon its journey. The mind/heart that does not pulse with awe and wonder at the Truth, the Way, and the Life is wicked and cannot begin to understand (Daniel 12:10). The Truth is Christ and Him slain from the foundation of the world.

Since it is God who examines the heart of each one of us, it is his choice to “draw” right-hearted ones to his truth. No one can come to Christ without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:44, 65) So God chooses us as much as we think we choose him. He will also allow us to be deluded if it suits us to accept what is not true. (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)

Indeed, but "drive it?" It seems to me more like a matter of not 'abusing' it which I think you've mentioned before. Minor point of difference, I suppose.

Like when we first started to learn to drive a car.....we learned more by our mistakes than we did by instruction. God told Adam and his wife what he wanted them to do, but telling them wasn’t enough....he had to show them what disobedience meant, where it led, and what effect is would have on others. The effects of their sin were so completely opposite to what their generous Father had given them, I am sure that the contrast was not lost on them. What they lost was huge!....but they had no one to blame but themselves......it didn't stop them from trying though.

Well, yes, except that unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're suggesting that redemption is different for Adam and Eve than it is for their offspring, which would trouble me just a bit.

The wages of sin, in the fullest sense, is the 'second death.'

I believe that Adam and his wife were not subject to the redemption offered to their children.
They had no excuse for what they did, no sinful nature to use as a reason to disobey their Sovereign. What they did was wilful and deliberate, in full understanding of the serious penalty, so they will be in the same place as the devil and his cronies...in the “lake of fire”....yes, the second death, which is eternal destruction...to “perish” means to be utterly destroyed. (John 3:16)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Redemption is relatively simple for us, but it is complicated for God, not in proportion to His ability, but in proportion to our ability to understand it. The love that compelled Christ to condescend to become human is unfathomable and, if I'm not mistaken, Tyndale had to actually invent the English word "atonement" to convey what the original tongues were expressing (I understand he also invented the word "beautiful"). All of those pieces of furniture and other objects, and even the structure of the Sanctuary itself, represent aspects of the process God requires to dispatch the problem of sin.

Everything on earth pictured something in heaven.....types and shadows.

My understanding is that Eden was taken away from earth sometime after the fall of man. I'm not sure what purpose it will serve to go forward along this vein but here we go:

The duty of man was to populate the earth fully with a lifestyle such as that in the garden of Eden.

Eden was still in existence right up until the flood. Access was denied by the guardians that God posted there to prevent them gaining access to “the tree of life”. As I understand it, the landscape after the flood would have been so dramatically altered, that no one would ever find it again.

Well, we populated the earth, all right, but only with 900-year-old super sinners and God had to get rid of them and start over. That didn't start off so well, either, with Ham and his brood. So He raised up Israel through Abraham and Isaac. And it goes on and on, but with the introduction of flesh food into the diet of man beginning with Noah, his life span was shortened so that sin couldn't proliferate quite as densely. Were just talking about the function of the mankind project up to this point—not so much about redemption.

Yes, the flood was not intended to do anything but to slow down the progression of evil. Since the rebel angels had interfered with God’s purpose, he brought it all back to square one and started again... a reset if you will. The progression then fell into place with what he intended to do concerning his Messiah....the promise to Abraham, and the lineage that would lead to, and identify Jesus as “the one” referred to in their scriptures as the Messiah.

finally the harvest is fully ripe, the investigative judgment (strictly for the benefit of the unfallen of the universe) has been completed, and the Bridegroom returns to receive His bride (the left alive and the resurrected for both of whom he has poured out his lifeblood) and destroy the living wicked.

He then takes His redeemed of the earth to heaven for 1000 years to reign with Him and to examine the deeds that have been done by all and to clear up all questions as to who has chosen to serve the LORD and who has chosen to serve Him not, while the devil and his imps roam the desolate earth destroyed with fire with no one to tempt, thus binding him in chains, figuratively.

I have a very different take on that.
There are two groups identified in Revelation who owe their salvation to the Christ. There are two separate resurrections identified, as well as two entirely different destinies for each group.

So when Jesus comes as judge, he will already have separated the “wheat from the weeds” and at the "harvest time", the reapers are instructed to destroy the “weeds”....so all ungodly humanity will be gone, never to be seen again.
So before Jesus appears as judge and executioner, he has been "separating the sheep from the goats" during "the last days". His judgment is the culmination of that separation. During the time of his “presence” unseen and unacknowledged by Christendom, Jesus has been getting redeemed mankind on earth (his true disciples) ready for the judgment but he has also been resurrecting his elect from the time he was installed as king, getting the things in heaven ready to begin their rulership of redeemed mankind on earth. During the time of the end, his elect are resurrected without having to sleep in death as the early disciples did.

Revelation 7 identifies two separate groups, one finite group (144,000) and an infinite group who are pictured before the throne of God and of the Lamb acknowledging their faith in the blood of Jesus and there are palm branches in their hands, indicating that they are at peace.

Revelation 7:4 says... “And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel”. These ones who are sealed are God’s elect...those chosen to rule with Christ in his Kingdom.
Revelation 14 mentions them again as standing on a heavenly Mount Zion with Jesus. (Hebrews 12:22)
And in vs 4-5 “These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.”

Identifying them as “firstfruits” indicates that there are secondary “fruits” to come. So the elect are gathered first (Revelation 20:6) but as the first act of his kingship, Jesus evicts satan and his hordes from heaven, down to the earth where he is now wreaking havoc because he knows that his time is nearly up. Are we not experiencing Job-like disasters...one after another right now?

The second group mentioned in Revelation 7 are a “great multitude which no man was able to number” and these are said to “come out of the great tribulation" on earth....so there will be survivors of the end times who will come through that time of great trouble and form the nucleus of “the new earth”, which will be ruled by the “new heavens”.....God’s Kingdom. The coming of the kingdom means that God’s will is to be “done on earth as it is in heaven”....so I am not sure where you get the 1000 years of satan roaming the earth with no one to annoy. Revelation 20 says that he and his angels are put into a bottomless pit or abyss, where he will be in a state of complete inactivity. The earth is not a bottomless pit.

The Bible does not indicate that the earth will be destroyed at all (Ecclesiastes 1:4)....but that it will be cleansed....just as it was in Noah’s day....but not by water this time....it will be by the fire of Jehovah’s anger that will see all opposers of his Kingdom dispatched permanently.

Satan is allowed one final test of redeemed humanity at the end of the 1000 years of Christ's rulership (Revelation 20:1-3) and then he and his cronies get thrown into the place already prepared for them....where the goats already are. (Matthew 25:31-33, 41)

 

[Aunty Jane]

After the millennial judgment (strictly for the benefit of the redeemed) is accomplished Christ and His Bride return to the earth riding atop the New Jerusalem (complete with the preserved garden of Eden) and Jesus raises the wicked from the dead. Satan marshals them for one final assault on the great city.

I have a completely different time frame for all of that. The thousand year reign of the Kingdom has only one purpose IMV....and that is to bring redeemed humanity on earth, back into reconciliation with God. It will take a thousand years to undo all the damage done to the earth and to the human race. (1 John 3:8) And with former humans to rule over them, they will be treated compassionately because they too were subject to all the stresses of sin in the world. Jesus also, though not sinful himself, had to deal with the sinfulness of everyone else.

So after that one final test, Jesus then hands the reigns back to his Father so that God's original purpose is restored.
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming". (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)
There is an order to the resurrection, and the timing is also indicated.....Christ was the first human to be taken to heaven, opening up the way for others to follow later, but these are only his elect, the ones who will rule with him in heaven.....this will be not "at his coming" but "during his presence" (parousia) which means something different to what is taught in Christendom. His "parousia" comes at the beginning of the "time of the end" whereas his "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" will come to pass at the end with Armageddon....the final showdown.

We can then look forward to the fulfillment of Revelation 21:2-4...
"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

 

[Aunty Jane]

If it helps any: I don't mind at all. I just can't type fast or think organizedly so it takes me forever to reply—even with the off-the-cuff stuff here and there. I'm a mess. Don't you just love long dashes? — — — — — — — lol
I'm a nut.

LOL....

I think you have to be "nuts" (in a good way) to post on sites like this and still retain your sense of humor....

 

[Aunty Jane]

It has been estimated upon reliable historical sources that the gospel had reached China by the end of the 2nd century, and that entire kingdoms were converted, and we're still in existence there 1000 years later.
In Britain, the Celtic church was established on scripture before the end of the 1st century. The Galatians were Celtic, and traded across Italy, southern France, and into Britain, establishing Christian communities wherever they went. Curiam communities were established throughout Asia, some by the apostles themselves, such as Thomas.

At Galatians 3:1, Paul was rebuking certain ones in the congregations there for allowing themselves to be influenced by an element of Judaizers among them, Jews who were attempting to establish their own righteousness through the Mosaic arrangement in place of the ‘righteousness due to faith’ provided by the new covenant. (Galatians 2:15- Galatians 3:14; Galatians 4:9-10)

Racially, “the congregations of Galatia” (Galatians 1:2) to whom Paul wrote were a mixture of Jews and non-Jews, the latter being both circumcised proselytes and non-circumcised Gentiles, and no doubt some were of Celtic descent. (Acts 13:14, 43; Galatians 16:1; Galatians 5:2) All together, they were addressed as Galatian Christians because the area in which they lived was called Galatia. The whole tenor of the letter is that Paul was writing to those with whom he was well acquainted in the southern part of this Roman province, not to total strangers in the northern sector, which he apparently never visited.

And that's a bad thing? If Zeus took the place of Jesus I would be concerned. Now, in art and in the formalism and ritualism that developed in the dark ages, there were no doubt a mix of the pagan and the Christian. And certainly many just changed names and allegiances to mollify t the demands of clerics and kings without any real relationship with Jesus Himself.

Don't you see, that is exactly what happened....Zeus became Jesus for the Christians and Jesus replaced Zeus for the Pagans. They were one and the same 'deity'....just operating under different names. To fuse paganism with Christianity created the counterfeit "weeds" that Jesus said would be sown by the devil "while men were sleeping"....perhaps that meant after the death of the apostles, or it may have meant when those at the helm suffered spiritual drowsiness to overtake them.

The most significant pagan idol still infecting Christianity is the presumed sacredness of Sunday, a day to which there is no hint in scripture suggesting it's replacement of the Lord's Sabbath. So if we are wanting to discuss truth in specific contexts, and how paganism affected Christianity and how they Lord requires a reformation, I suggest right there would be a great place to start.

I know this is a real sticking point with SDA's, but just from the Christian scriptures I see absolutely no support for keeping a weekly Sabbath.
Geographically it is impossible to keep the Sabbath for all worshippers around the world on the same day of the week. The international date line presents a challenge because the date line is an imaginary line that runs for the most part through the Pacific Ocean along the 180th meridian. Countries to the west of the date line are one day ahead of those to the east. When Israel was in one geographical location, the keeping of the Sabbath was not difficult, but now that they occupy every land, how is the seventh day Saturday in some parts but Friday in others?

Besides that, can you provide a scripture that commands Christians to observe the Sabbath?

Jesus held the Sabbath observance because he was Jewish and under Law, but Paul indicated that the old Law was done away with when the new covenant came into force. Under inspiration, he wrote: “Therefore let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; for those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17)

Sabbath-keeping became an integral part of life for the Israelites.....and for the Jews it still is a very important law....(Deuteronomy 5:12) In Israel, every new multistory building erected since 2001 must have at least one elevator that automatically stops at each floor, so that devout Jews, who observe the Sabbath from Friday evening until Saturday evening, do not have to do the “work” of pressing the buttons in an elevator. I am not sure how strictly SDA's observe their Sabbath? Perhaps you can enlighten me?

Now however, Christians are under a new law, “the law of the Christ.” (Galatians 6:2) The former Law covenant given through Moses to Israel, came to an end when Jesus’ death fulfilled it. (Romans 10:4; Ephesians 2:15)

Did the commandment about keeping the Sabbath also come to an end? We believe it did.
After saying, “we have been discharged from the Law,” Paul went on to refer to one of the Ten Commandments. (Romans 7:6-7) So the Ten Commandments—including the Sabbath—are part of the old Law that came to an end. God’s worshippers, in our view, are no longer required to observe a weekly Sabbath. But having said that, because it was a perfect law, there is also no law against it.....it is simply no longer a requirement.

The same can be said of circumcision......there is no requirement but there is also no impediment to performing it if one makes that decision.....however there can be no forcing it onto others because this then becomes a personal decision. (Acts 15:28-29)

The only two laws we are bound and obligated to keep are those mentioned by Jesus .....'to love Jehovah with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength...and to love our neighbor as ourselves.' (Matthew 22:37-40)

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm not following you here:
Wouldn't one have to be alive to procreate?

the point being if no one died after procreating the planet would get pretty crowded pretty quick?

 

[bbyrd009]

And we will see Him in the same manner those disciples did

then standing there gazing up would make sense right; understand what is being said there imo

 

[theefaith]

According to the scriptures, when death occurs, the soul dies. Since we do not have any conscious part of us that survives death, my answer would be NO!
It was forbidden under God’s law to practice necromancy or any other form of spiritism. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

Those who believe that the dead are still alive are falling for the first lie ever told.... “you surely will not die”.....it wasn’t God who said that. God told Adam.... “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Did God ever mention anything about a conscious part of humans that lives on in another realm?

What did the Jews believe about life after death? (Remembering that Jesus was Jewish and the only scripture he had and quoted from was the OT.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10...
”For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . .10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going.”

Solomon also wrote.... “for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

No mention of an afterlife there either.....just a return to the dust.

In my studies of the scriptures, I see that people confuse two words as if they mean the same thing....that is “soul” and “spirit”.....these words are not interchangeable because they mean two entirely different things.

I often hear people refer to Ecclesiastes 12:7, which says.... “Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.“

This has people assuming that the spirit is the soul.....but it isn’t.
When God created Adam from the dust (elements) of the earth, what did he give Adam to bring him to life?
Genesis 2:7....(ASV)
“And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

Adam was not given a soul but “became” one when God started him breathing.
The “breath of life” is the “spirit” that animates a soul, be it a human or an animal, as Solomon said. All have the same “spirit” or breath that keeps them alive. Once the spirit goes out of a soul, it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4, Psalm 146:4)

The Jews believed in resurrection, (a restoration of life) not immortality of the soul (as a continuation of it). (John 5:28-29) That is a pagan Greek notion adopted later by those who chose to believe the devil’s lies instead of the Bible’s truth.

and these scripture!

Lk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

2 Corinthians 5
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in theheavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. ...

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

rev 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

 

[BarneyFife]

the point being if no one died after procreating the planet would get pretty crowded pretty quick?

I don't think God ever intended for us to go on populating the planet until there was inadequate space for enjoyable living, do you?

 

[BarneyFife]

I think the thread has pretty much gone sideways now. I've got some heavy stuff going on at home, anyway.

 

[marks]

I don't think God ever intended for us to go on populating the planet until there was inadequate space for enjoyable living, do you?

I've read that all the people alive on the planet, if standing shoulder to shoulder, would all fit in Florida. That was a few years ago. I did the math, figuring each person needs a 2 ft x 2 foot square. I remember it was true, if the population estimates were right. It seems like there is still a lot of room, but we don't use it very well.

And then there is the idea that the pre-flood earth wasn't 2/3's covered in water, which means there would have been that much more space.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I think the thread has pretty much gone sideways now. I've got some heavy stuff going on at home, anyway.

And I have a floor to be mopped!