Imagine a World with no Christians!

[James Macbeth]

Well how big of a sin do you need to commit before asking God to forgive you?

Ok let me ask you this.
In Rev 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

Who are these people?

And are they different form 1 Thes 4:15?
For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead, who are in Christ, shall rise first.

Are they the same or different groups of people?

 

[Timtofly]

Ok let me ask you this.
In Rev 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

Who are these people?

And are they different form 1 Thes 4:15?
For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead, who are in Christ, shall rise first.

Are they the same or different groups of people?

That is a figurative statement. It represents all currently in Paradise covered by the Atonement.

All of the redeemed. They have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. At this point they are glorified. The spirit is put on over the physical body like a robe of white.

The 5th and 6th Seal happen at the same time. This is John's version of Paul's Second Coming/rapture event found in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4.

Those on earth put on a permanent incorruptible physical body and the whole church puts on the spirit like a robe of white. The church is presented to God and is forever with Adonai God in Paradise until the New Jerusalem descends after the Millennium.

Jesus then proceeds to the Mt. Of Olives and prevents an attack per Zechariah 14. Then the 7th Seal is opened. Then Israel is dealt with during the first 6 Trumpets. Jesus is sitting on His throne in Jerusalem per Matthew 25:31. Jesus starts removing people from the Lamb's book of life. The goats are the first to be removed. This is the final harvest, and the time of Jacob's trouble, or the GT.

So your verse about all not being changed is taking the verse out of context for the church and applying it directly to Jacob/Israel. Some of Israel are sheep and remain in the Lamb's book of life, and live on earth for the 1,000 years. The goats are not changed. They are sent to the LOF, and their names removed from the Lamb's book of life.

After the 6 Trumpets, we see in Revelation 10 the 7 Thunders. This is Jesus dealing directly with the Nations after Israel is harvested. Matthew 13 covers this harvest, while Jesus and the angels are on the earth. The wheat is changed and many souls enter the Millennium. The tares are placed in the LOF, not changed. Their names removed from the Lamb's book of life. After the 7 Thunders, we have the final celebration week of the 7th Trumpet. This week is one of 3 historical weeks depicting a dispensational change.


The first celebration week was when Israel took over Jericho, ending the Nations and setting up Israel as the number one Nation. That did not go as planned. Israel was just as wicked as the rest of the world. The next week of celebration was the week of the Cross. Israel was set aside and God started the NT church. This was called the fullness of the Gentiles.

Now at the end of the church, we see the church removed first. The first will be last and the last will be first. Then Israel will be harvested in preparation for the Millennial Kingdom. Then the Nations will be harvested. Then the third week of celebration to present the Kingdoms of earth as belonging fully to Jesus as Prince. Jesus will rule until all is fulfilled, and then hands the Kingdom back to God.

Back to the 7th Trumpet. If an interruption is necessary, there will be 42 more months of utter desolation to allow those who will be beheaded to remain in the Lamb's book of life. This is the gleanings after the final harvest. And Satan will be allowed 100% control to do as he pleases on earth. Only those who chop their heads off to avoid the mark will remain in the Lamb's book of life and be resurrected on the first day of the Millennium. This is all spelled out in Revelation. If there is no 42 month extension, the 7th Trumpet will end and the Millennium will start. Jesus will still reign with the sheep, the wheat, and the 144k. These will continue to produce offspring per Isaiah 65. All those born during the Millennium will have one more chance like every one ever born on earth to reject Satan or be deceived by Satan.

 

[James Macbeth]

That is a figurative statement. It represents all currently in Paradise covered by the Atonement.

All of the redeemed. They have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. At this point they are glorified. The spirit is put on over the physical body like a robe of white.

The 5th and 6th Seal happen at the same time. This is John's version of Paul's Second Coming/rapture event found in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4.

Those on earth put on a permanent incorruptible physical body and the whole church puts on the spirit like a robe of white. The church is presented to God and is forever with Adonai God in Paradise until the New Jerusalem descends after the Millennium.

Jesus then proceeds to the Mt. Of Olives and prevents an attack per Zechariah 14. Then the 7th Seal is opened. Then Israel is dealt with during the first 6 Trumpets. Jesus is sitting on His throne in Jerusalem per Matthew 25:31. Jesus starts removing people from the Lamb's book of life. The goats are the first to be removed. This is the final harvest, and the time of Jacob's trouble, or the GT.

So your verse about all not being changed is taking the verse out of context for the church and applying it directly to Jacob/Israel. Some of Israel are sheep and remain in the Lamb's book of life, and live on earth for the 1,000 years. The goats are not changed. They are sent to the LOF, and their names removed from the Lamb's book of life.

After the 6 Trumpets, we see in Revelation 10 the 7 Thunders. This is Jesus dealing directly with the Nations after Israel is harvested. Matthew 13 covers this harvest, while Jesus and the angels are on the earth. The wheat is changed and many souls enter the Millennium. The tares are placed in the LOF, not changed. Their names removed from the Lamb's book of life. After the 7 Thunders, we have the final celebration week of the 7th Trumpet. This week is one of 3 historical weeks depicting a dispensational change.


The first celebration week was when Israel took over Jericho, ending the Nations and setting up Israel as the number one Nation. That did not go as planned. Israel was just as wicked as the rest of the world. The next week of celebration was the week of the Cross. Israel was set aside and God started the NT church. This was called the fullness of the Gentiles.

Now at the end of the church, we see the church removed first. The first will be last and the last will be first. Then Israel will be harvested in preparation for the Millennial Kingdom. Then the Nations will be harvested. Then the third week of celebration to present the Kingdoms of earth as belonging fully to Jesus as Prince. Jesus will rule until all is fulfilled, and then hands the Kingdom back to God.

Back to the 7th Trumpet. If an interruption is necessary, there will be 42 more months of utter desolation to allow those who will be beheaded to remain in the Lamb's book of life. This is the gleanings after the final harvest. And Satan will be allowed 100% control to do as he pleases on earth. Only those who chop their heads off to avoid the mark will remain in the Lamb's book of life and be resurrected on the first day of the Millennium. This is all spelled out in Revelation. If there is no 42 month extension, the 7th Trumpet will end and the Millennium will start. Jesus will still reign with the sheep, the wheat, and the 144k. These will continue to produce offspring per Isaiah 65. All those born during the Millennium will have one more chance like every one ever born on earth to reject Satan or be deceived by Satan.

No. No figurative statements.
The souls under the Altar are people since the time of Christ that have made it to Sainthood.
The dead in Christ are in Purgatory.
Then the Rapture happens, in a blink of an eye.
The dead in Christ are caught up to heaven from Purgatory, Christ himself put them there under his custody, because they were not ready for their incorruptible bodies.
Then those who are left will be changed and caught up.
But not all, some will have to go through the Apocalypse, as punishment to purify them, because they were in mortal Sin before the Rapture.
Then when Jesus comes back will he give them their new bodies, because they have proven themselves ready.

Luke 12:57
And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny. (welcome to Purgatory)

 

[Timtofly]

Luke 12:57
And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.

(welcome to Palestine)
Only first century Judaism.

 

[James Macbeth]

(welcome to Palestine)
Only first century Judaism.

?

 

[Behold]

When the Body of Christ is Raptured, there will be no more Christians in the world.
That's pretty soon to happen.

If you are still here, then you have a big problem...

 

[Timtofly]

?

Jesus was talking about living humans in Palestine of the first century system of law. Not the afterlife.

 

[covenantee]

Then how do you explain Psalms 38:1

Rebuke me not, O Lord, in thy indignation; nor chastise me in thy hot displeasure.

And Psalms 6:1 has the same.

S. Augustine & S. Gregory explain this text of the fire of Hell, and of Purgatory, see 1 Corinthians 3:15.

If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Augustine, expounding Psalm 38:1 gives the proper distinction between this fire of purgatory and that of hell: both are punishments, one temporary, the other eternal; the latter to punish us in God's justice, the former to amend us in his mercy.

Many of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment for the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and in such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven.

Purgatory was properly recognized in the Reformation as a works-centric distortion of the Gospel, which contributed to the apostasization of the papal church over the centuries leading up to the Reformation.

It was repudiated by the Reformers.

From Wikipedia:

"Purgatory came to be seen as one of the "unbiblical corruptions" that had entered Church teachings sometime subsequent to the apostolic age. Hence, the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England produced during the English Reformation stated: "The Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory...is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture; but rather repugnant to the word of God" (article 22). Likewise, John Calvin, central theologian of Reformed Protestantism, considered purgatory a superstition, writing in his Institutes (5.10): "The doctrine of purgatory ancient, but refuted by a more ancient Apostle. Not supported by ancient writers, by Scripture, or solid argument. Introduced by custom and a zeal not duly regulated by the word of God… we must hold by the word of God, which rejects this fiction."

 

[James Macbeth]

Purgatory was properly recognized in the Reformation as a works-centric distortion of the Gospel, which contributed to the apostasization of the papal church over the centuries leading up to the Reformation.

It was repudiated by the Reformers.

From Wikipedia:

"Purgatory came to be seen as one of the "unbiblical corruptions" that had entered Church teachings sometime subsequent to the apostolic age. Hence, the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England produced during the English Reformation stated: "The Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory...is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture; but rather repugnant to the word of God" (article 22). Likewise, John Calvin, central theologian of Reformed Protestantism, considered purgatory a superstition, writing in his Institutes (5.10): "The doctrine of purgatory ancient, but refuted by a more ancient Apostle. Not supported by ancient writers, by Scripture, or solid argument. Introduced by custom and a zeal not duly regulated by the word of God… we must hold by the word of God, which rejects this fiction."

Then why is the Church of England bringing it back?

Prayers for the departed were deleted from the 1552 Book of Common Prayer because they suggested a doctrine of purgatory. The 19th century Anglo-Catholic revival led to restoring prayers for the dead.

And,
Purgatory is seldom mentioned in Anglican descriptions or speculations concerning life after death, although many Anglicans believe in a continuing process of growth and development after death.

That means the idea of Purgatory is being passed down from generation to generation, even surviving a direct attack from the Church elders there in England.

Thus this is proof that it came from the Apostles themselves.

 

[James Macbeth]

Jesus was talking about living humans in Palestine of the first century system of law. Not the afterlife.

Total poppycock...

The whole 12th chapter our Lord is talking about his second coming, then he randomly inserts something about their Court's, and then resumes talking about this second coming in the beginning of the 13th chapter.

Hopefully the seeds of truth sprout within you.
With God will all things are possible.

 

[covenantee]

Then why is the Church of England bringing it back?

Because the Church of England of today is not the Church of England of the Reformation.

I'll opt for the latter.

Every time.

 

[James Macbeth]

Because the Church of England of today is not the Church of England of the Reformation.

I'll opt for the latter.

Every time.

And there you'll be in darkness with Queen Elizabeth I.
I'll pray for you.

 

[covenantee]

And there you'll be in darkness with Queen Elizabeth I.
I'll pray for you.

Thanks, but no need.

I was enlightened long ago by John Wycliffe and all Reformers following him, who fearlessly exposed the historical papal antichrist.

 

[James Macbeth]

Thanks, but no need.

I was enlightened long ago by John Wycliffe and all Reformers following him, who fearlessly exposed the historical papal antichrist.

More like deformed by them.
To criticize the Catholic church is one thing, but to go completely against it...shows lack of control.

I'll give you that they made some good points, but took their conclusion too far.

Alas our Lord says it is necessary for evil to arise from time to him, but woe unto him by whose hand it comes.

 

[covenantee]

More like deformed by them.
To criticize the Catholic church is one thing, but to go completely against it...shows lack of control.

I'll give you that they made some good points, but took their conclusion too far.

Alas our Lord says it is necessary for evil to arise from time to him, but woe unto him by whose hand it comes.

Thank God for the Reformation.

God raised up, inspired, and empowered His Reformers to liberate His True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression.

He endowed them with prophetic wisdom and discernment to identify the spiritual foe against whom He had called them into battle.

By His grace and mercy they were successful.

We are the spiritual beneficiaries today of their faith, vision, and sacrifice.

This forum would not exist today without them.

And their conclusion.

 

[James Macbeth]

Thank God for the Reformation.

God raised up, inspired, and empowered His Reformers to liberate His True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression.

He endowed them with prophetic wisdom and discernment to identify the spiritual foe against whom He had called them into battle.

By His grace and mercy they were successful.

We are the spiritual beneficiaries today of their faith, vision, and sacrifice.

This forum would not exist today without them.

And their conclusion.

Yes, you are right, good things came out of the reformation.

But you are incorrect in thinking that the reformers would put up with religious liberties.

The reformation was 10% religious and 90% political.

It was mostly about who got to control what, and where money was going.

Both protestants and Catholics hid behind the vail of the 'Ture Church of God' and did what people always do, war, control, power.

The reformers saw how much power the Catholics had and started salivating at the mouth, wanting to get a piece of the cake themselves.

Catholics were no better, a bunch of fat cats ignoring the poor, pandering to the rich.

Yes those were dark times, but be realistic, the pendulum swung both ways.

 

[covenantee]

Yes, you are right, good things came out of the reformation.

But you are incorrect in thinking that the reformers would put up with religious liberties.

The reformation was 10% religious and 90% political.

It was mostly about who got to control what, and where money was going.

Both protestants and Catholics hid behind the vail of the 'Ture Church of God' and did what people always do, war, control, power.

The reformers saw how much power the Catholics had and started salivating at the mouth, wanting to get a piece of the cake themselves.

Catholics were no better, a bunch of fat cats ignoring the poor, pandering to the rich.

Yes those were dark times, but be realistic, the pendulum swung both ways.

Which of Luther's 95 Theses were about politics?

 

[James Macbeth]

Which of Luther's 95 Theses were about politics?

A theses is one thing, but actions are another.

And as the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

Besides Luther committed suicide, not a very good reformer.

The Bohemian reformation was better IMO.

 

[covenantee]

A theses is one thing, but actions are another.

So you agree that none of his theses were about politics.

And as the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

Credible evidence that Luther's actions ran counter to his theses?

Besides Luther committed suicide, not a very good reformer.

Credible evidence?

 

[Brakelite]

Then why is the Church of England bringing it back?

Prayers for the departed were deleted from the 1552 Book of Common Prayer because they suggested a doctrine of purgatory. The 19th century Anglo-Catholic revival led to restoring prayers for the dead.

And,
Purgatory is seldom mentioned in Anglican descriptions or speculations concerning life after death, although many Anglicans believe in a continuing process of growth and development after death.

That means the idea of Purgatory is being passed down from generation to generation, even surviving a direct attack from the Church elders there in England.

Thus this is proof that it came from the Apostles themselves.

No, it's proof that even the most well established protestant institutions isn't immune to apostasy, and that even it's most influential members can turn it to be traitors...aka Cardinal Henry Newman. It was he, and the liberals and Catholic intruders in the universities particularly Oxford, that started the rot. That did not prove the validity of Catholic teachings any more than a dropped pass proves the validity of a better coached opposition.